Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[dragons1ayer74]

I like that idea quite a bit. So does Torc.

You win the thread!

Edit:
We're currently thinking 3 second cooldown, 5 uses, recharging one use every 15 seconds. Wind Dance would have the same rules attached to it. This lets you have a nice burst of speed when you need it, and the recharge rate is fast enough that it's not totally burdensome.

The only thing I see this preventing is easier solo of raids by these classes (FVS really). I do not think this is a good idea if you want to make it so you do not want the boss to be kited have it so when he throws the chains on you it disables Leap of Faith (or other movement abilities), leave it alone in other areas please.

[Monkey_Archer]

I like that idea quite a bit. So does Torc.

You win the thread!

Edit:
We're currently thinking 3 second cooldown, 5 uses, recharging one use every 15 seconds. Wind Dance would have the same rules attached to it. This lets you have a nice burst of speed when you need it, and the recharge rate is fast enough that it's not totally burdensome.

This seems like a good compromise that more-or-less simulates how abundant step functions for monks.

/signed

[Eladrin]

This seems like a good compromise that more-or-less simulates how abundant step functions for monks.

That's one of the reasons I'm fond of the idea.

I will consider this a buff if this means Wind Dances cool down will be 3 seconds. Pleeeeeeeeaaaase??? =D

Signs point to yes.

[protokon]

This seems like a good compromise that more-or-less simulates how abundant step functions for monks.

/signed

Agreed, I like that compromise quite a bit, shorten cooldown of the ability with a small recharge timer. Could definitely live with that.

[Henky]

Then Nerf Clerics Auras that are 12 - 14 at lvl 11 as well Bard songs I PAY to play a Favoured soul...

Are we going to get items that assist in the Recharge like Bards? Are we going to be able to have the same amount of Charges open to us as say a Bard does with songs or a Cleric with turns... with all of the things you have to apply in Fvs.

The Class is already STAT Greedy, they are Action Point greedy, They have One PrE class and you need a change in Feat for some times. AND It is Called ANGEL Of VENGENCE not clunker of vengence.

When you are opening the Xp events again I challenge one of you Devs to make a Fvs. No epic Gear nothing but what is in the AH... and lets see what you think about nerfing this. Not everyone plays this game day in and day out to get epic gear.

THIS and...

Can you change the DCs of the FvS to be based on Charisma and not Wisdom?

[Rizzyn]

I like that idea quite a bit. So does Torc.

You win the thread!

Edit:
We're currently thinking 3 second cooldown, 5 uses, recharging one use every 15 seconds. Wind Dance would have the same rules attached to it. This lets you have a nice burst of speed when you need it, and the recharge rate is fast enough that it's not totally burdensome.

I believe the original notion was a step in the right direction, but now we're limiting things to a flat rate. Paladins, Bards, and Cleric abilities are based on their stats, in part, enhancements, in part, and Gear -- for example, items with Anthem built in. There is NOTHING currently existing to buoy this change in a Favored Soul, unless there is some "Winged" advantage added to the "Angel of Vengeance" Prestige Class.

However; how does this resolve the aggro/tanking/kiting problem? I don't think it does. It may keep a Favored Soul from overly speed kiting, but if they have Striders and Haste, or decide to get them, I don't see this fostering a change in tactics. I DO find this notion less shocking than the original one suggested, but turning it into a kind of special ability that we can't even get an Enhancement on from Gear or APs seems a bit unfair. It's not a Sorcerer Divine; Favored Soul requires a high Wisdom AND a High Charisma to be effective, a decent DEX to maximize the use of medium armor, a fair Strength to get any use out of the chosen weapon that goes with one's Diety, a better than average CON to push up somewhere near to 400HP or be very troubled in Raids and high-level quest, and an INT that isn't debilitating in their skill points. They are stat-greedy, very nearly in the same manner that a solid Paladin can be.

Leap of Faith is NOT breaking the new Raids, or any other.

[Venny]

well that is it I don't think I am playing anymore kiss my money and my game testing good bye

I'll go join the up incomming SW fan base that aren't going to nerf Jedis cause they are uber.

[slimkj]

We're currently thinking 3 second cooldown, 5 uses, recharging one use every 15 seconds. Wind Dance would have the same rules attached to it. This lets you have a nice burst of speed when you need it, and the recharge rate is fast enough that it's not totally burdensome.

Ughhhhh. No more zipping around on FVS or Sorc then. This sucks. I don't want speed "when I need it", I want it all the time. Why not approach fixing the Leap & DoT boss kiting another way rather than annoy all the people who like zipping around on fast chars?

[Diyon]

Signs point to yes.

Yay!





(Now if you just get the helf dragon marks + air savant working properly my sorcerer can not feel as gimped for taking them anymore.)

[BlackPantha2]

We're currently thinking 3 second cooldown, 5 uses, recharging one use every 15 seconds. Wind Dance would have the same rules attached to it. This lets you have a nice burst of speed when you need it, and the recharge rate is fast enough that it's not totally burdensome.

Deal!

[Lifespawn]

I like that idea quite a bit. So does Torc.

You win the thread!

Edit:
We're currently thinking 3 second cooldown, 5 uses, recharging one use every 15 seconds. Wind Dance would have the same rules attached to it. This lets you have a nice burst of speed when you need it, and the recharge rate is fast enough that it's not totally burdensome.

this is a decent compromise

but please make it recharge faster in town and public areas put it to 3 seconds while under the town healing for those of us that just love to burst around

[BananaHat]

Please don't nerf my wings.

Personal preference:
Have chaining effects stop wings. Your wings are chained up and it always felt like you were skirting the CC the devs intended.

It is fun to have the cooldown be 3 seconds, please don't take away fun.

Give the LoB a deadly bullrush ability or something. Have his speed and damage increase 10% every 5-10 seconds he doesn't get to melee something. He wants to use his blades badly. Heck, give it trample after 3 stacks so he will just start charging through everyone to get at his target. He'll catch that guy with wings and it will hurt.

Alternatively, give him a ranged blade throw that disables wings and cripples the target. Or, even better, let him have a "Come here!" ability with a bladed chain. If we can be teleported to Harry in part 5 of the shroud, why can't we have an anti-range come-die-in-melee-like-the-rest-of-you-scum ability on the LoB?

[sirgog]

I like that idea quite a bit. So does Torc.

You win the thread!

Edit:
We're currently thinking 3 second cooldown, 5 uses, recharging one use every 15 seconds. Wind Dance would have the same rules attached to it. This lets you have a nice burst of speed when you need it, and the recharge rate is fast enough that it's not totally burdensome.

This, IMO, is almost perfect.

I'd like to suggest that whenever we are not in combat (haven't made a melee attack, cast a spell, attempted a saving throw or been hit/grazing hit in the last 15 seconds) that these uses auto-recharge.

That way we could still use it to zerg to ADQ1 or Chains of Flame, but the overpowered uses would be gone.

[Rizzyn]

Eladrin or Torc,

How does a change to Leap of Faith resolve the problem cited? Or at the very least, what does this mean for a Raid or even the LoB raid to be specific?

At the moment, this seems an unnecessary change, based on the situational complaints that have occurred in a small percentage of possibility due to the smaller and somewhat wise population of the LAM players. I'm not at all clear why you, the Devs, or anyone in the game, feels this is a necessary change, when there are Raid Mechanics that can be added to accomplish what seems to be the goal; Less Kiting.

Feel free to PM me the answer, because as a subscriber, I'm at a loss to find the "even hand" in this.

[grodon9999]

So it's a change . . . that doesn't actually nerf anything . . . that doesn't actually even address the problem?

Par for the course . . .

[Correlan]

I like that idea quite a bit. So does Torc.

You win the thread!

Edit:
We're currently thinking 3 second cooldown, 5 uses, recharging one use every 15 seconds. Wind Dance would have the same rules attached to it. This lets you have a nice burst of speed when you need it, and the recharge rate is fast enough that it's not totally burdensome.

This.

If you need to nerf it, due to kiting, make this change. But as someone pointed out already, if not in combat, no spells cast, grazing hits etc, you getunlimited uses.

I build my toons for speed...

[Aredharr]

I think it would be viable to use dex bonus to the max number of LoF. This is in line with the agility base stat and effect. Also given that dex is normally low on a FvS, the bonus would not get to high either.

lets say 5 base LoF + dex bonus (18dex / +4) starts you with 9-

[Venny]

Why don't you fix the lock up issues, the Nerffing on the Intimi skills and dps and test an unepicly geared fvs before you choose to stick a twig in everyones eye

[Voldomar]

Thats just dumb...

Before I had wings on a FVS I was playing a BB cleric with haste clickies and running in circles 3ft out side the BB with my healing aura running.

Just because you see a well played FVS that can wing at the correct time to kite and minimize damage good on him, clerics can do very similarly if played correctly. I haven't had an issue on either character BB kiting both are effective at the job.

Yeah it was easy enough even before fvs. As many have said due to bad AI.
But with wings it's just cheap, well played fvs or not.


Regarding the suggestion of aggro loss, i don't like it since it can be abused.
The last "compromise" is usless imho. It will make people angry and won't solve the issue. It's better to leave leap of faith as is if that is what devs have in mind.

[Kace]

Let's just get to the real issue here:

Bad A.I.

That's the reason why you can't get ranged combat right.

That's the reason you have 'overpowered' casters.

That's the reason why you have bad game play.

Focus on improving A.I., not on nerfing abilities and classes.

And please take everything that comes from whining barbarians with a grain of salt.

I may as well throw my 2 p's in on the AI question. I think people might be underestimating how hard this would actually be. Faced with an opponent that I couldn't ever catch and did massive unstoppable ranged DoT, I'm not sure what I would do, it might be a stretch to expect their program to think of something. A couple of ideas I see suggested:

1. If you fly away, enemy stops chasing you

Unless you let the dude give up completely and go home, I don't know how this works. The idea appears to be that since the monster can't ever do anything to the FvS, he can occupy himself with people who are vulnerable (if there are any) until he dies. Obviously there can't be a class that's immune to danger.

2. Instead of chasing the FvS, he nukes him.

This is probably how to do it, but it's worth noting there are very problematic pitfalls in this approach. At it's most basic level the solution boils down to the top guy on the agro list having hitpoints deducted without regard to orientation or location of any of the combatants, or any terrain. It solves the AI problem of course, but it's a dagger in the action-tactical combat that is DDO. Everyone can have whatever movement abilities they wish, because it makes utterly no difference where anyone is anyway. If you back off the hardcore approach a bit, every differentiation you add, that allows for a tactical decision, is a mechanic that will be once again exploitable, because it will be possible to anticipate the AI, and force it to make a bad decision.

Still, the game has chosen to make agro management a focus, and for that to work, if primary agro is at a distance, primary agro must be lit up like a Christmas tree.

3. AI matches wits.

Retain all sorts of tactical considerations, but program the game to have thousands of simultaneous agents consistantly out-thinking players in real time.

This would be neat to see for 20 minutes and then we would all be enslaved Matrix style.