Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[Seftonblake]

Nerfing toons to make quests harder isn't the answer. IMO these continual nerf to toons abilities is just Turbines lazy attitude towards new quests (i say new in the least terms possible as most "new" quests are cut and pastes) with virtually nothing new.

Turbine i have 4 new quests for ready to go for module 12. Waterworks Epic. Just roll out the standard, all mobs 10,000 hp, 65 AC, and throw in a few random effects like few pure fighter trogs with unlimited spell points and then u can call it all new.

But please don't change the reward system as things like eternal wands are very useful to the level 20 toons who complete these epic quests.

[Mellkor]

Please do not change LoF. It is the single biggest fun factor for me when playing the FvS class (and for MANY others). This boss kiting thing is not a problem, IMO, since as previously stated, 11 other folks rarely put up with that kind of thing in a raid or even a 6 man group. Which leaves soloing. If this is "so powerful" that folks can solo raids, elite quests, etc I say to that: Who Cares!!!! As it affects noone else, let them if they want to. It is fun for me to be able to do that from time to time. (and not just on my FvS).

This wasn't even an issue until the new DOT spells came out. As much as I love divine punishment (DP) on my FvS, it easily doubled my DPS output on my Lord of Blades (when stacked 3x). Even I have to admit that was a bit too much. This single spell allows me to out DPS the best Barbs and fighters in single one on one combat. Easily. Just take away the stacking damage amplification aspect on DP and all will be fine IMO.

Once again, it should also be pointed out that better QA from Turbines end would go a long way to prevent such draconian changes to the game that enrage your paying customers.

[BeccaBop]

I got the FvS class the day I saw someone using wings.

They look cool. They are fun.

I made a FvS specifically because I wanted to fly around everywhere. It's fun.

If there is a problem with the new raid boss, fix the new raid boss.
If there is a problem with other classes feeling slow, make them faster.
If there is a problem elsewhere, fix that problem.

That other guy kinda said it best..."Don't nerf a class to fix a monster."

Let me keep my fun.
Feel free to give out *more* fun, though.

[Aredharr]

OK,

So throw us a bone! Nerf the people who pay and leave our side of the equation alone. We really do enjoy chasing someone we cant catch. In a prior life we were probably all dogs [...]

/end of commentary

I must admit this had me laugh. And yet i don't feel sorry for the monsters.

The nerf seems to counter the action of kiting over a long period of time. Having 5 charges is plenty to cover the "escape" portion of the LoF description in a raid.
However, as i said earlier, every FvS uses their wings to travel faster and should remain unchanged in city and explorer areas.

[Terebinthia]

Please do not change LoF. It is the single biggest fun factor for me when playing the FvS class (and for MANY others). This boss kiting thing is not a problem, IMO, since as previously stated, 11 other folks rarely put up with that kind of thing in a raid or even a 6 man group. Which leaves soloing. If this is "so powerful" that folks can solo raids, elite quests, etc I say to that: Who Cares!!!! As it affects noone else, let them if they want to. It is fun for me to be able to do that from time to time. (and not just on my FvS).

Quite. Certainly I'm not seeing all divine caster PUGs up on Khyber day in day out. Most groups still want the balanced party format, often amusingly so (a fair few people don't seem to have gotten the memo that casters, rangers, rogues or pallys are DPS, for example ). If the odd highly skilled player can solo a raid or two, who cares? Who else is affected by it anyway? Does it really matter if they get a completion on their own or with 11 other people?

[voodoogroves]

+1 to you . As to answer also to other posters like it is said above when LoF used that way is very overpowering that people can solo elite raids with ease . Not to mention the elite quests that i run in front with my fvs and kite everything around my BBs which i dont take any dmg and all other classes chase me so as to catch up as to score only a hit.

Also wings are not defining class ability ..... more sp than the cleric is defining class ability.

PS. Its OP you all know it. All the other things are excuses and exaggeration. Please lets have some balance in this game....

It's OP because you say it is????

And its certainly not the only way people have been able to handle elite quests and raids. For one, kiting is time consuming and not error forgiving. Turtles with guards and/or DOTs is far more effective.

Your experience with soloing epics, raids, etc. must be different than mine.

[mutilador]

Anyone have any good suggestion of e new game?

Cos if you dont like to play casters you should start to look for a new game.

[lazlow]

Ive played this game for many years and favored souls leap of faith actually made me giggle when i first used it...I still love it. The only time i kite is when im by myself and I would not run a raid with folks who used kiting/dpunishment method or expect others to either as that would be boring. From my readings of the guys/gals that have completed are just testing the raid...learning and finding its limitations ( you know a supposed test server and all ) and from what i read many were short manned and furthermore these players are not yer average finger mashing bumpkins that make up the great majority of players. They are all stars and please turbine/devs...dont be that guy... the angry dm butthurt cause his or her players insightfull and clever techniques escaped their vision of how things should play out. You want us to continually improvise and adapt with game changes and thats fine we will but why should we be the only ones to adapt and improvise, this is a test server and players have through testing shown the raids faults and its successes. I recommend this time you all should find a solution on yer end and drop this idea of simply clip the wings. We are after all Favored Souls...we bring the healing and the pain. Demi Gods in the right hands... as it should be.

laz

[Soleran]

Please do not change LoF. It is the single biggest fun factor for me when playing the FvS class (and for MANY others). This boss kiting thing is not a problem, IMO, since as previously stated, 11 other folks rarely put up with that kind of thing in a raid or even a 6 man group. Which leaves soloing. If this is "so powerful" that folks can solo raids, elite quests, etc I say to that: Who Cares!!!! As it affects noone else, let them if they want to. It is fun for me to be able to do that from time to time. (and not just on my FvS).

This wasn't even an issue until the new DOT spells came out. As much as I love divine punishment (DP) on my FvS, it easily doubled my DPS output on my Lord of Blades (when stacked 3x). Even I have to admit that was a bit too much. This single spell allows me to out DPS the best Barbs and fighters in single one on one combat. Easily. Just take away the stacking damage amplification aspect on DP and all will be fine IMO.

Why oh Why would you make a comment about nerfing DP triple stacks with your one build when maybe the rest of the fvs don't melee. How about nerf DP so that if the FVS is in melee combat it no longer does damage on melee attack animations.

On the note of wings, I don't like the nerf at all based on the combat experience of a raid encounter. Nerf the class instead of tuning the encounter is cutting your nose off to spite your face. Throw heavy gravity in there or use the abashi movement instead of the construct.

[budalic]

Also wings are not defining class ability ..... more sp than the cleric is defining class ability.

Then it's a stupid class defining ability. In PnP, defining ability of sorcerer was 'Gimp wizard'; and defining ability of FvS was 'Gimp cleric'. If you center a class around some kind of power/versality/longevity tradeoff, chances are one side will come out on top, and you will have one 'true class' and one 'gimp class'.

That's the reason why currently classes have different focuses other class can't reproduce as well:
Wizard: DC casting
Sorcerer: Spell damage
Cleric: Healing
FvS: Wings and (since u9) AoV.

[crimsonrazac]

As a Monk, I'd really prefer the new mechanic as well. I'd love having it untied from my Ki, and regain a charge every 10 or 15 seconds? That's awesome.

I agree can you give monks the same nerf... pallys should have their smite cooldown bumped down to 15 seconds as well

[Darkshire]

I like that idea quite a bit. So does Torc.

You win the thread!

Edit:
We're currently thinking 3 second cooldown, 5 uses, recharging one use every 15 seconds. Wind Dance would have the same rules attached to it. This lets you have a nice burst of speed when you need it, and the recharge rate is fast enough that it's not totally burdensome.

This feels familiar...

1) Upcoming update to the game brings an announcement of a potential change to something long-established and embraced by players.

2) Proposed change is seen as overkill to fix a problem with other solutions; verbal Armageddon ensues on the test server forums.

3) Amidst all the destruction, threats of quitting, dogs and cats living together, many players fearful of the potential for damage in the proposed change plead with the people in charge of decisions to consider alternatives. Various solutions are proposed.

4) Volume of feedback and suggestions is perused, a different changed is announce as being the favorite, couched in the spirit of compromise. Many people are still upset, but others grudgingly accept that this change is 'not as bad' as the original proposal.

5) ????

6) Profit (though one never knows how changes like this affect the bottom line with people potentially making good on ending their paid support of the game regardless of what gets implemented).


I just worry that this isn't the end, with longstanding features of the game suddenly going under the knife without anesthesia, who knows what's next? Greensteel, with the advent of alchemical crafting in this same update? Khopeshes? Both??

*looks nervously at his lit2 khopesh*

Don't leave me, baby.

[budalic]

*looks nervously at his lit2 khopesh*

Don't leave me, baby.

With alchemical crafting, chances are you'll leave... it? her? him?; and not the other way around.

[lugoman]

The answer to caster/arcane tanking isnt to lessen their dps but to lessen their tank abilities. Let bosses teleport kiting toons back to them like the genies in von6. Introduce an improved crippling that disables wings. Give all shield 100% spell failure. Introduce a new type of attack - one that drains sp as well as hp. Not hard to think of things.

[Faent]

Hmm.... The changes that were offered and Eladrin accepted seem like a decent enough compromise...

No it didn't. Nine uses of wings followed by a 15 second cooldown on future winging is not a compromise nerf. It's a complete and total nerf that goes way beyond solving any of the problems they're trying to solve. Favored Soul's don't need to be hit with a Sledgehammer of Thor in order to fix the problem endless kiting created.

[Bufo_Alvarius]

As the owner of a fvs and a rogue, i find this all quite comical.

Rogues recieve a possible nerf of 25% to their dps (jury still out on this one). A couple small threads and whinings.

Fvs recieve a possible nerf to their movement speed ( read: general output and dps remains the same) and we get a 15+ pager of vitrol and " i'm quitting" posts.

Niche class that is discriminated on a daily basis gets the shaft, a couple die hards complain. Uber class that can solo the whole game and is at the very top of the power curve gets a cooldown change, Defend the gates! Riot in progress!

This game is unbalanced as hell. Neg away haters...

[pugfred]

one of the things i really like about the class is the wings. it is a premium class too. as such i expect a premium toon. you wanna cripple it fine i've been looking for an excuse to stop playing anyway. if its the blade barrier thing then put them back the way they were. its pitiful the sorcs and wiz in the game have this overwhelming advantage at everything and you wanna break the fvs which for the most part is played be people that have made significant financial contributions to the game. have at it. fvs are by no means overpowered compared to casters and can't melee like the melee classes yet you charge a premium for it and now you want to break it. leave it alone. there is a lot of competition for gamers out there and frankly that competition is gonna increase so go ahead whack one of my primary abilities im pay as you go anyway. never spent a dollar on the game i dont feel i've gotten back in entertainment value. so knowing that you are likely to just change the rules in the middle of the by crippling me will just influence my future investment. what a sorry state this is you nerfed twf now you are gonna nerf my wings meanwhile casters run about willy nilly killing everything with far more powerful spells than i have access too. yeah nerf it have fun go ahead make it nice and lame like a bard give it away while you are at it. just kill off that revenue stream.

[EvilI]

I havent played at Lamannia at all, so I might be completely off becuase I dont know anything about this new raid. But I do play this game several hours every evening, and my main toon is a FvS. Strangely I have not seen any of this boss-kiting people seem to be so up in arms about. In day-to-day play it's a non-problem.

My deduction is that this is something that might take place in a small, but vocally strong, subportion of the gaming community. People who if given a chance will eventually exploit any mechanism of the game, mostly because of their superior resources. I am gradually coming to the conclusion that it's probably not a good idea to base your continuing development of a game solely on that subpart of the community.

[budalic]

Niche class that is discriminated on a daily basis gets the shaft, a couple die hards complain. Uber class that can solo the whole game and is at the very top of the power curve gets a cooldown change, Defend the gates! Riot in progress!

This game is unbalanced as hell. Neg away haters...

Emphasis mine. 1) Rogues are melee DPS and 2)They are quite good at it. They get discriminated by idiotic party leaders, and they are actualy doing you a favor... posting an 'I'm an idiot and you shouldn't party with me' sign over their heads.

Unless you're one of those S&B rogues with 150 HP and khorots gear (true story... guildy saw one in HoX). In which case you shouldn't complain about discriminating.

But yes, FvS is uber class... the problem is that LoF is a Toy ability. If they were nerfing FvS in damage/durability/whatever department there would be less outrage. But devs are taking away a Favourite Toy (TM), so a lot of people are gonna get outraged.

[voodoogroves]

I havent played at Lamannia at all, so I might be completely off becuase I dont know anything about this new raid. But I do play this game several hours every evening, and my main toon is a FvS. Strangely I have not seen any of this boss-kiting people seem to be so up in arms about. In day-to-day play it's a non-problem.

My deduction is that this is something that might take place in a small, but vocally strong, subportion of the gaming community. People who if given a chance will eventually exploit any mechanism of the game, mostly because of their superior resources. I am gradually coming to the conclusion that it's probably not a good idea to base your continuing development of a game solely on that subpart of the community.

It's like a big reactionary change to something like crafting because there's a handful of people who hit the cap very quickly. Nerf casters because DC 45 instakills are an easy button ... etc.

Please don't balance the game for everyone around what the completionists and 20+ life toons can do.

A different point would be to boost the melees a bit and develop the roles (tank, melee DPS, etc.) and provide challenging content for all ... but to remove something from all sorcs because (just an example) Ayspam can own content is a pretty lopsided approach.