Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[BlargneyTheSecond]

I think it comes down to risk/danger potential and skill requirement. If a method of completion is very low risk and/or very easy, or trivializing other party members contribution (ie, killing level of fun), then there's probably something wrong with that method that needs to be changed.

Cool! It sounds like you have experience running the new LoB raid and can fill in the specific details requested in Step 2! That'd be really helpful.

[gloopygloop]

Sure, if you think only in terms of time spent fighting mobs, it sounds reasonable. Some of us, though, loved the abilities for their speed boost between fights and didn't primarily use them to wingkite bosses.

Now, it is a problem. To solve one tiny issue, they've proposed limiting a very popular ability hugely elsewhere in the game. How much time do people proportionately spend in boss fights, given timers? Not much, nothing compared to running from place to place, zipping through quests, etc.

This just feels like another nerf (mis)aimed at zergers; another step towards a slow, dull DDO that I won't enjoy. DA, TWF speed, now wings. Just deleting Striding from the loot tables left to do now. Oh and maybe get rid of sprint boosts too. :/

I agree with you, actually. I just was trying to point out that Eladrin's change actually does do what Eladrin wants it to do.

I happen to think that there wasn't a problem in the first place, but I know better than to try to convince the Devs that something is working the way that it should when they get a bee in their bonnet. I mean, G-d forbid that someone should beat their new raid on Epic with only 200 store bought mnemonic pots.

[Diyon]

Cool! It sounds like you have experience running the new LoB raid and can fill in the specific details requested in Step 2! That'd be really helpful.

Errr, well I was just really going off ideas that should apply to any end fight. I actually haven't ran LoB raid (But what I said should still apply, just with no experience I can't really offer suggestions to a solution there).

[laniza]

I like that idea quite a bit. So does Torc.

You win the thread!

Edit:
We're currently thinking 3 second cooldown, 5 uses, recharging one use every 15 seconds. Wind Dance would have the same rules attached to it. This lets you have a nice burst of speed when you need it, and the recharge rate is fast enough that it's not totally burdensome.

/not sighed

Not sighed means no. I know its not as bad as the first idea, but I am still going to feel disapointed once it goes life because the nerf is the neft, especially unnecessary one. Why wont u just leave the wings alone and come up with something else? Remove DOT, add save to it, whatever, just please leave the wings alone! Please!

[Gkar]

Dear Dev Team,


I'll preface this by saying: I don't have a FvS of any significant level. I have never used Leap of Faith, but I will admit to enjoying Abundant Step on my Monk quite a lot.



Changing Leap of Faith would be a mistake, Devs. A really significant one. If kiting is a problem, figure out a solution on the monster's end of things - not by altering player abilities that have been with the class since you introduced it.

Additionally, this possible change would cause player unrest that would rival the levels that would be unleashed if a khopesh change was announced. Instead of changing khopesh, the Dev team made the correct decision to give the other exotic weapons some incentives.

Now, I say this only because the weapon profile of the khopesh does not follow PnP versions of the weapon. However, the alterations were kept instead of nerfing the weapon in order not to provoke a player revolt. Other prospects to balance out the game were created - and I think they're good ones.


Please pursue other prospects to any perceived issues you, the Dev Team, feel is the problem with LoF kiting. Otherwise - might as well change the khopesh too and at the same time. Might as well make as deep a cut as you can to maximize the amount of player-rage that would be the result of changing either of these aspects of the game that y'all put in, and have kept in for years.


This is from the viewpoint of a player who has never used Leap of Faith, and probably won't ever.


Thanks,
Mem.

Mem said pretty much what I was thinking. Teach the AI to deal with kiting in general. Right now an AA can backpeddle around the bosses for 10 minutes while they safely range them down too.

Give bosses chains that hold wings.

Give bosses a short range teleport ability and/or a speed boost when people get annoying.

Make the bosses smarter, don't take the fun out of a feature that is mostly used out of combat to just get you around better/faster and have more fun with the game.

[kitsune_ko]

Just for the record, it looks like they've changed their mind on the particular change. The cooldown is likely to still be 3 seconds with recharging uses.

I will admit it is better then their first idea, but it is still nerfing something that is just plain not broken to avoid fixing something that is.

And Many other posters are correct, It is a class people paid real USD for access to. Going "Just kidding, now your just a cleric, but with bad enhancements" is NOT going to cut it with people who paid for this class.

I have never used Leap of faith for kiting; I never will. I am healing specced. If I am ever found spamming Leap of Faith in a quest, it is to get me to somone before they die.

So why the hell am I being punished for here exactly?


Denial Turbine.. it's not just a river in Egypt.

*EDITE*

danotmano1998: Feel free to use it; you know it's probably part of the "1000 monkeys, 1000 years..." theory. If I just make enough posts, eventually something good has to come out

[darksol23]

I like that idea quite a bit. So does Torc.

You win the thread!

Edit:
We're currently thinking 3 second cooldown, 5 uses, recharging one use every 15 seconds. Wind Dance would have the same rules attached to it. This lets you have a nice burst of speed when you need it, and the recharge rate is fast enough that it's not totally burdensome.

I really don't see how this solves the problem, and it's nerfing the most unique thing about the class. Sticks and carrots... If you're going to take away the most unique thing about the class, please finish the classes PRE's. There's always going to be one class in the game that is "best", you nerf FvS enough then Sorcs/Wiz will abecome the "best". There's never going to be a balance between class effectiveness be that fvs vs arcnae or casters vs melee.

<rant>
The only way to really fix the problem is smarter AI, but I understand that's not possible as the server hamsters are already on thier last legs. And it would take alot more dev time to fix the problem rather then whip out the nerf bat again. That is time taken away from things that could be sold in the ddo store, which means there would be less money to replace the hamsters when they die. So it's better to invest the time in selling new overpowered classes/races/etc and just plan on nerfing them in the future... Vicious cycle guys... What's next in line for the nerf bat? Half-orcs?
</rant>

[Diyon]

I will admit it is better then their first idea, but it is still nerfing something that is just plain not broken to avoid fixing something that is.

And Many other posters are correct, It is a class people paid real USD for access to. Going "Just kidding, now your just a cleric, but with bad enhancements" is NOT going to cut it with people who paid for this class.

I have never used Leap of faith for kiting; I never will. I am healing specced. If I am ever found spamming Leap of Faith in a quest, it is to get me to somone before they die.

So why the hell am I being punished for here exactly?


Denial Turbine.. it's not just a river in Egypt.

*EDITE*

danotmano1998: Feel free to use it; you know it's probably part of the "1000 monkeys, 1000 years..." theory. If I just make enough posts, eventually something good has to come out

I figured pointing out the change wasn't going to completely turn around your position, but I figured it was something needed.

In any case, by the use you're describing, I really don't see this change effecting you much. If you're using it while healing, that means you're going to be stopping and throwing heals, which should be time enough to recharge some uses. I mean you only have to not be using it 1:15 for it to completely recharge, so I'd imagine you'd probably never run out of uses in a fight.

[Thorzian]

a simple solution that someone mentioned already would be to increase the SP cost. it sounds like the original intention was to give FvS a boost now and then, the DV DOT came later, and theyre only now seeing how well the two synergise to make FvS OMGBBQIWIN buttons.

Jack the cost up, and FvS have to manage their use as spamming would run them dry.

bunch of BS. i would rather lose my dots then my wings. and there's no way i'm alone. even the 5 sp they cost now is too much, as is the ki for monks and the sp for sorcs. an ability should be just that. its not a spell so why cost spellpoints at all?

the problem, as has been said many times but i'll repeat it, isnt the wings. it isnt the dots. it isnt the lack of class balance. the problem pure and simply is **** AI in this game. the devs cant program properly and so the player base, upon figuring out an ideal method to beat something, gets nerfed.... until we figure out the next best way to do something, then that gets nerfed. it really is a **** poor pattern and one i see as continuing unlimitedly.

customer service has never been a priority in ddo. why would it start now?

[xxScoobyDooxx]

As stated ... the problem is not the wings it's the Dots in combo with wings.

Wings are fun. Take them away or restricting them is taking away or restricting our fun.

Let me remind you Turbine ... this is a game ... we play it for fun. Wings on my FVS is maybe the most funnest part of the game for me personally.

Dots are overpowered as they stand in the game currently. Everyone with a end game FVS or caster knows this.

A simple solution to the Dot and Kite issue that people seem to want to address is this.

Make all Dots range tied to the Caster. Make the range short. If they want to turtle up and Dot fine then, works as is. If they Dot then wing it away then the Dot stops damage. This will prevent the Agro staying on the FVS while they wing which will solve the kiting issue with bosses that supposedly exists.

It also will make casters think more about the Dot stacking tactics as they won't be able to stand at the back and lead the DPS stats anymore. They'l need to get their fancy robes dirty if they want to pull the agro off the Barbs.

I have never seen a raid completed with a pre determined tactic of 1 FVS winging it and 11 people watching. Messing with FVS wings is trying to solve an issue that doesn't exist.

[Saaluta]

I like that idea quite a bit. So does Torc.

You win the thread!

Edit:
We're currently thinking 3 second cooldown, 5 uses, recharging one use every 15 seconds. Wind Dance would have the same rules attached to it. This lets you have a nice burst of speed when you need it, and the recharge rate is fast enough that it's not totally burdensome.

As a concerned cleric who was kiting things with blade barriers before favored souls were even a thought in DDO minds, instead of just setting it at 5, why not make it emulate a clerics dv's, radiant bursts, etc, and be able to spend enhancements or feats to get more. Make it wis or cha based, can take enhancements or feats to give you more if you want to take away from something else on a build and still let us have our fun. I was kiting on Saaluta while she was a 28 point build in 20% striders...but this is a better nerf than the original suggestion if you must nerf the wings on the favored souls that I obtained by doing every quest in game on elite to unlock 2500 favor.

Saal

Sadly, the reason I play my favored souls more than I do Saaluta these days is because of the fast movement speed. I want to get to the members of my party who are dying down the hall when I am "moving slower than molasses flowing uphill in January"!!

[NeutronStar]

I want to add that I dislike the proposed changes and would suggest improving Boss AI, rather than nerfing player ability, which they use on FAR more than simply bosses.

I understand that the Dev's need a fix here, because they are seeing some behavior that lets one class kite and kill things that they never intended to be kited in killed. I applaud that the Dev's don't want fights to be trivial, but I suggest looking for a challenge upgrade, rather than a nerf.

This.

+1

[Musouka]

As stated ... the problem is not the wings it's the Dots in combo with wings.

Wings are fun. Take them away or restricting them is taking away or restricting our fun.

Let me remind you Turbine ... this is a game ... we play it for fun. Wings on my FVS is maybe the most funnest part of the game for me personally.

Dots are overpowered as they stand in the game currently. Everyone with a end game FVS or caster knows this.

A simple solution to the Dot and Kite issue that people seem to want to address is this.

Make all Dots range tied to the Caster. Make the range short. If they want to turtle up and Dot fine then, works as is. If they Dot then wing it away then the Dot stops damage. This will prevent the Agro staying on the FVS while they wing which will solve the kiting issue with bosses that supposedly exists.

It also will make casters think more about the Dot stacking tactics as they won't be able to stand at the back and lead the DPS stats anymore. They'l need to get their fancy robes dirty if they want to pull the agro off the Barbs.

I have never seen a raid completed with a pre determined tactic of 1 FVS winging it and 11 people watching. Messing with FVS wings is trying to solve an issue that doesn't exist.

Or just like what several others have suggested. Make chains stop wings. That's the core of the problem.

Also, I earned the 2500 favor to unlock Favored Soul on my server. I believe that was worth the favor grind, and that the class tied to the highest overall favor tier should have some nice perks compared to the other classes.

[HarveyMilk]

I like that idea quite a bit. So does Torc.

You win the thread!

Edit:
We're currently thinking 3 second cooldown, 5 uses, recharging one use every 15 seconds. Wind Dance would have the same rules attached to it. This lets you have a nice burst of speed when you need it, and the recharge rate is fast enough that it's not totally burdensome.

Okay, but please let these be always full in town. Make the in-town replenish rate high enough so that you can move outside of quests how you can now. Wings are a HUGE time saver, please don't take that away.

[voodoogroves]

Time is the most valuable thing in this game, and I enjoy winging around through town to be sure.

Why all the funky cool-down stuff?

Just have wings be chained (and air-step) ... maybe give monks a pass since they are more limited and let them escape.

[Elaril]

I like that idea quite a bit. So does Torc.

You win the thread!

Edit:
We're currently thinking 3 second cooldown, 5 uses, recharging one use every 15 seconds. Wind Dance would have the same rules attached to it. This lets you have a nice burst of speed when you need it, and the recharge rate is fast enough that it's not totally burdensome.

And here I thought that we would somehow manage to avoid another knee jerk reaction nerf due to players beating a raid in a manner in which you guys did not intend. How silly of me.

Isn't this the reason for the test server, so you can see what the problems are with the newly released content, so you can make adjustments to that content accordingly? Not so that we can get another shot to our characters pills. This is really getting annoying.

[jakeelala]

Okay, but please let these be always full in town. Make the in-town replenish rate high enough so that you can move outside of quests how you can now. Wings are a HUGE time saver, please don't take that away.

PLEASE MAKE THUS CHANGE ONLY APPLICABLE IN DUNGEON AREAS! Getting around town is already a huge pain. Don't take away wings for that. Or is it OP to get across Market fast?

[olBillDoor]

What I think is ridiculous is my caster specked FvS's spells hit just as hard as a non-caster FvS's do.

[Venny]

In the end Nerfing Fvs wings makes as much sense as me wearng all black and walking down the middle of a highway at night.

I am at this very moment playing a BARD and EVERYTHING in this GAME is after me I am not doing anything and still I HAVE the AGRO Fix the AGRO pull on the AI and Stop Nerfing classes.

While you are at it Fix the beholder Crystals as they seem to be broke.. I am wearing one it has all 20 charges and I still got hit with 6 Neg levels, and Every single damage spell along with saving from an insta death spell.

[voodoogroves]

I'd rather they remove the cooldown entirely from savants and FVS, but make them susceptible to being chained or otherwise locked down.

The problem isn't in town-use or general purpose trash killing ... it's the boss kiting. Let the bosses and environments hinder that.