Please Remove "Echoes of Power"

[Chette]

Absolutely /signed

Add a crappy ability that benefits almost nobody? Sure, go nuts.
Seriously nerf one of the best abilities that archmages have at their disposal in order to accommodate said crappy ability? No freaking way.

[Trillea]

/not signed

EOP is fine

Characters should be able to maintain single target damage of some kind no matter their class so they always have something fun to do in combat.

I don't like the changes to archmage cheap spells, but on the whole I don't find them very significant either.

Sigtrent, I don't usually ask things like this but have you built an Evo-specced archmage? The changes to cooldown and SLA cost are VERY significant. Right now on live, you can use a rotation of Chain Missile, Arcane Bolt, Magic Missile, Arcane Bolt for barely-adequate DPS. The increasing of both the cooldowns AND the costs for these make it a non-viable class at levels 18+ (it was barely viable at this point anyway).

[FooWonk]

Re: dumping Echos of Power
/signed

Re: keeping cost of Evocation AM SLAs at pre-U9 level
/signed

Re: keeping non-SLA cool-downs at pre-U9 levels
/not signed

Re: keeping SLA cool-downs at pre-U9 levels
/signed

Re: lowering Savant SLA cool-downs
Not sure... though I'd rather not see the common play style for a savant to continually cycle 3 SLAs non-stop.

[phalaeo]

Get rid of it.

[Qezuzu]

One of the few threads I say /signed.

EoP was meh, but nerfing anything to implement something that would benefit very few players is just wrong,

[Alexandryte]

Sigtrent, I don't usually ask things like this but have you built an Evo-specced archmage? The changes to cooldown and SLA cost are VERY significant. Right now on live, you can use a rotation of Chain Missile, Arcane Bolt, Magic Missile, Arcane Bolt for barely-adequate DPS. The increasing of both the cooldowns AND the costs for these make it a non-viable class at levels 18+ (it was barely viable at this point anyway).

^This is the reason why.

Cycling just SLAs until you get the end fight and blow all the SP killing everything in an instant isn't something they want to encourage.

SLAs are meant to ENHANCE Damage per second per spell point. Not be the sole DPS of a caster (at least not without price).

[EatSmart]

(at least not without price).

Permanent reduction of max SP. <- There's your price right there.

/Signed on removal of echoes of power.

[Dawnsfire]

Like you said...they are tools. They should not be the "be all end all" like firewall was.

The irony is without such changes you would be "push(ing) someone in to a cookie cutting 'my way or the highway' cookie cutter mold"

The greater irony is that you agree with me on the same exact points but look in the opposite direction.
You seem to imply that doing XYZ or ABC or any combination therein is bad whereas the current state of just doing X or Y every few seconds is better.

Firewall pre-instadeath spells was king. The end.
Post instadeath spells....wail and finger reign. On things that cannot be set ablaze or killed instantly most casters have 2-3 other spells slotted to use.

Since those were getting adjusted people then turned to SLAs with maybe some other spells occasionally thrown in.

The changes U9 brings, as a whole, shake up that monotony.


So basically it boils down to this: 2 extra seconds and a slight SP hike on SLAs, no damage based SLAs, or SLA's become very nice but very limited use. Which would you prefer?

I am afraid we are speaking past each other and I am going to assume it is because I wasn't making myself clear enough. So I will try again

The only arcane I have at the moment is a 11th Pale Master so I will continue to be blissfully ignorant on the sorc changes. So I will try to explain myself using Wizards as a guidepost. None of this really affects my Wiz because my build concept was to be survivable while building up DCs in instakill. I think this will have very little effect on this build. But let me tell you about the AM I will not be making unless something changes.

With a Wizard you have to accept the fact that you are going to be sp starved until you get near end game. You also have to accept that in a group you have only a couple roles that are really open to you. Buffing is mandatory in a group so now choose between CC, support or damage. You can't do all 3. Wizards really don't have enough sp. I thought AM would let me break that mold a bit.

Since buffing is all but a demand in a group (must keep haste, rage and blur on everyone after all), that leaves me with about half my sp bar to play with between shrines (until I get to end game). The second half of my sp bar would go to CC, some occasional support and my Slas. My original idea was to concentrate my feats on spell pen and DCs for CC. My enchancements would go toward buffing my metas, spell pen and repair line. The Evoc SLAs would allow me to help with DPS. I wouldn't be great at it but a bit better marginal. IMO, the idea of taking AM as a PRE is to give you access to a small select portion of a school so you can concentrate another role.

Now I don't think it is cost effective to give up a bunch of sp to purchase the SLA and then pay a significant amount sp to cast them slower than ever. It seems to me that many if not most folks that stay with AM will just take the extra sp from the PRE and just spend them on normal spells. That will limit the flexibility builders have and will likely result in a much smaller number of viable builds. Mostly I fear that PM will become Fotm and people will flock there.

You seem to see this as the Devs giving us tools. I see it as marginalizing those tools to a point that many will not see them as viable. That is my fear.

I am trying to keep an open mind until the final build is released but that is getting harder and harder as things continue to trend in the above direction.

The OP more or less asked us whether we preferred that flexibility or a couple of sp if we do not prepare (carry a couple pots) for an emergency. Well since pots are pretty cheap in the AH I'll take build and playstyle flexibility over EOP.

PS: I am pretty sure Mass Holds were king pre-U9 not firewall

[olBillDoor]

Absolutely /signed

Add a crappy ability that benefits almost nobody? Sure, go nuts.
Seriously nerf one of the best abilities that archmages have at their disposal in order to accommodate said crappy ability? No freaking way.

^This.
It's what a lot of other people are saying, but it's true.
/Signed.

[SisAmethyst]

Eladrin specifically said that the archmage SLAs were changed due to EoP so your argument holds NO water. And as for only using 6-7 spells out of a list, no matter what the list is the playerbase will use whatever is most effective - they could make a spell that is called Fleeble's Narfling of the Garthok, and if it does better damage than other spells of a comparable level, or has better efficiency, it will be used. My point is whatever is best is what will be used. Whether it is 50% better or 5% better, it will be used.

I don't mind the existence of Echo of Power and in some situations it may be helpful. However I see a big issue just from the fact that this is more viable in lower levels which encourage new casters to not conserve the mana, while at level 20 this is pretty much useless except for the SLAs.

If then it is true that the Echo of Power was only introduced because they increased the cost for the SLA, well then I am pretty much with the folks here to petition that this get reversed. The changes to the SLAs are really annoying! I mean what are we supposed to do for example in Shroud; sit on the bench and wait that the cool-down-timer of 'Wail of the Banshee' is gone because everything we could cast, even including the SLAs, are on cooldown now?

[Malison]

Update 10:
The ability Echoes of Power has been removed from the game. It is being replaced with what we're calling Rest Shrines, which will be located in quests at locations where characters might be running low. Some players may have noticed a few Shrines in quests already. These are no longer mere cosmetics, but will restore a large amount of hp and all your sp. This efficient system will reduce lag by not forcing the game to check every character's current spell points at all times, and also improve the quality of gameplay by allowing players to cast spells that can actually contribute in a quest. Further advantages of rest shrines include our ability to not rebalance the entire game due to shortsighted decision making and implementation of half-finished projects.

[Musouka]

/signed

It's caused too much of a change that is upsetting the balance that we already had at one time. We already learned how to play this game one way, now it's turning into a whole new and different game.

[domecek1]

/signed


Yeah, you have been working on it for long time probably, but almost everybody dont want it and now even hate it. So please, remove it, dear devs.

[gyerv59]

/signed, there are more than enough ways to regen sp, no need for EOP.

If they didnt want to tak it out of the game completely i've seen mentioned in several places for it to have a level cap, that could work and give the SLA's back there pre U9 timers.

[GoRinNoSho]

How about starter elixirs of mnemonic enhancment to give early casters a crutch.

Also with the changes I hope "You are not facing X" will not be the most common UI alert. That is part of the reason AoEs etc. are standard fare.

[Antheal]

I like the idea of Echoes of Power.

I just wish it would work for Divine casters, too.

I wonder, if it was removed, would "Echoes of Melee" also be removed, too? That's been in the game since Day 1.

[TheKaige]

/signed.
EoP wasn't a terribly good idea to begin with, and has apparently caused a slew of balance issues in Turbine's minds.

I'm all for casters having something little to do when out of spell points; a vastly better solution to me sounds like reducing the max level of SLAs to level 1 for Sorcerers and Archamage secondarys, and letting Archmages get level 2 SLAs; then makes these SLAs completely mana FREE.

[Zorack00]

People are asking to remove a benefit that they get for free now? I need to take a break from the forums.

Why don't you just start a thread asking to revert back the spells that was changed because of Echoes of Power, instead of asking to remove Echoes of Power itself (Since they might do just that... and maybe only that, so you'll win nothing in contrast).

I would just ask to revert the SLA and keep the Echoes of Power (It's already here, and would be a waste to just dump it. The feat alone doesn't hurt anyone and it's not like the ability is some major benefit. It does have its uses in early game that would help new people learning casters).

Just my 2 cents, if not then I agree with Echoes of Power in trade for the old SLA...

[Engar1]

^This is the reason why.

Cycling just SLAs until you get the end fight and blow all the SP killing everything in an instant isn't something they want to encourage.

SLAs are meant to ENHANCE Damage per second per spell point. Not be the sole DPS of a caster (at least not without price).

Have you even ever played an evoc AM??? I really doubt it from your comments, though I suspect you would argue any post anywhere for any reason, but hey, whatever.

[TheIvanovFamily]

1-Remove EoP
2-Reverse the EoP motivated changes
3- Add better lowbie eternal wands with more useful effects
4- Bam, lowbies have a way to function after their SP is gone and highbies put away their pitchforks.