Please Remove "Echoes of Power"

[Trillea]

1-Remove EoP
2-Reverse the EoP motivated changes
3- Add better lowbie eternal wands with more useful effects
4- Bam, lowbies have a way to function after their SP is gone and highbies put away their pitchforks.

Hear here!

[jkm]

I like the motivation that came up with EoP. Playing a low level caster is one of the worst experiences in DDO for a new player. However, any implementation that causes that many ripples through the game system isn't a good design.

Why not make all LEVEL 1 Spells 1 SP. None of the spells are overpowered at high levels and we accomplish the exact same task as EoP without having to tweak the entire system.

/signed

[Stillwaters]

/signed

It is not DnD, this is some other stupid mmo mentality that Turbine is trying to appeal to.

If casters were supposed to be able to just keep spamming spells (even low level ones) their spells would all have to be adjusted to make them weaker and.. oh wait you did that TOO??!? come-on!!

Instead of this system why not just make a craftable wand (with a cool-down) that lets you trade (x) sp to cast a spell you slotted in it. Usually mages have a small pool of 1-9 sp left after they blew their wad, this would let them cast that fav attack spell a few more times and with each cast they see their resources going down to 0. Or just let them wand the whole mission.

The only real effect of this is to allow unlimited casting of low lvl non meta'd spells (with a cooldown) most of these will be ineffective at mid-high lvl play, and at low level play the missions are so **** easy and full of rest shrines that most wiz's pick up an axe and fight their way thru when they run out of spells.

Wizards tend to PWN the mid game at expense of occasionally needing help in the low levels, with hirelings, party members, recharging wands, and sp pots there is no frakkin need for this... All you are doing is encouraging more soloists and that isnt really what dnd was ever meant to be about!! TEAM > Player skill > build power

[Alexandryte]

I like the idea of Echoes of Power.

I just wish it would work for Divine casters, too.

I wonder, if it was removed, would "Echoes of Melee" also be removed, too? That's been in the game since Day 1.

It does.

EoP works for any class that receives the feat Magical Training.

[Alexandryte]

Permanent reduction of max SP. <- There's your price right there.

/Signed on removal of echoes of power.

So a buff to SP (the actual tier of the ability) thats reduced when you grab a spell. Bringing either still above or below your standard based on your choices.

Still doesn't negate the fact that its a very low cost ability in relative comparison to your SP bar. You are comparing the balance of a PrE within itself with the balance of abilities (affected by the spell pass) as a whole. The rebalance of the SLA wasnt in regards to the PrE it was in reference to Spells as a whole.

[Jaid314]

So a buff to SP (the actual tier of the ability) thats reduced when you grab a spell. Bringing either still above or below your standard based on your choices.

Still doesn't negate the fact that its a very low cost ability in relative comparison to your SP bar. You are comparing the balance of a PrE within itself with the balance of abilities (affected by the spell pass) as a whole. The rebalance of the SLA wasnt in regards to the PrE it was in reference to Spells as a whole.

i'm not convinced you're aware of how unimpressive the archmage evocation SLAs really are. as i recall, they have been worked out to deal something in the neighbourhood of 250 dps if fully specced for it.

they have a very definite cost (SP right off the top, feats, action points, access to other cool SLAs), are not unbalancing in the slightest right now, and were essentially nothing more than a toy to let people do something when they didn't really want to spend mana. in short, those SLAs are (until U9 hits and changes them) the thing that replaced wall of fire. this *is* the second option. and now it's being taken away because someone is terrified of a sustainable 250 dps for the first few seconds of each fight that a new ability is adding to the game.

this is just stupid. a competent melee can add double that amount of dps that will last several minutes instead of a few seconds, and close to that much indefinitely. they can also likely do more CC if they have the right feats, and even if echoes of power was added without any change whatsoever to the SLAs in the game, it would not be unbalancing even a tiny bit.

so, if echoes of power is going to take something which currently provides an alternative to wall of fire, and get rid of it, they are NOT adding tools, they are taking them away. there will still be pretty much nobody letting themselves reach the point where echoes of power is needed, only now instead of using their force SLAs, archmages will ignore evocation entirely and use another SLA (until that one is nerfed too), at which point they will all default to using something else, and so on.

nobody uses archmage damaging SLAs because they're awesome. they use them because they're cheap, and they let you at least contribute *something* while you wait for a fight worth actually casting a real spell on.

[Alexandryte]

Have you even ever played an evoc AM??? I really doubt it from your comments, though I suspect you would argue any post anywhere for any reason, but hey, whatever.

You're right. I've been playing a Sorc/FvS (2 different lives) and monk hybrid (in total there are two separate characters, one of which that reincarnated on Lamania to test crafting exp carrying over and to test both new class PrEs) for Lamania. I also understand the concept of increasing a cooldown by 2 seconds. I also understand the qualms that Sorcs are feeling with the changes to cooldowns and how they felt didnt have a distinct advantage any more.

I may not necessarily agree with them in entirety but I at least understand where they are coming from.

I also don't cry doom or nerf or get rude and generally avoid being snippy when someone has a differing viewpoint than my own. I try and take the time to converse and learn why certain things are done.


2 seconds and a very slight SP hike when all other spells are being readjusted for the better, are not worth complaining about in this force.


I also understand that if they listened to every single whine without common sense to back it up...we would have 1 of 2 states: Horrendously broken (Super Saiyan anyone? /roll eyes) or absolutely nothing would change ever in-game. Both are paths to ending a game.

Next time you are waiting on a short cooldown and cant possibly think of something to do....Breathe in and then out....bam....2 seconds gone.

[Falith12]

/signed

[Alexandryte]

in short, those SLAs are (until U9 hits and changes them) the thing that replaced wall of fire.

they use them because they're cheap, and they let you at least contribute *something* while you wait for a fight worth actually casting a real spell on.

the thing that replaced wall of fire.

they use them because they're cheap

replaced wall of fire.

they're cheap

Firewall pre-instadeath spells was king. The end.
Post instadeath spells....wail and finger reign. On things that cannot be set ablaze or killed instantly most casters have 2-3 other spells slotted to use.

Since those were getting adjusted people then turned to SLAs with maybe some other spells occasionally thrown in.

The changes U9 brings, as a whole, shake up that monotony.

Did I not just say that? Is your DPS higher than that of a no PrE Wizard? I should hope so...you have access to the same repository of spells....cept AM can have increased DCs and SLAs.


When you use 1 button...1 spell for the majority of content and then when that get changed so things are more appealing overall.....and then you set yourself up in the same situation again where you would use SLAs to fill such a hole.....


What did you expect?

[Monkey_Archer]

Was about to "/signed" but....

Turbine never removes new mechanisms. No matter how bad or hated a mechanism is, they will keep it because they just paid developers to develop it. (Think dungeon alert)

So: Nerf Echoes of power instead of SLAs plz

If the problem is that 4 sp per 6 seconds allows you to spam too many cheap SLAs, then lower the amount of sp to 2 per 6 seconds or something instead of reworking entire pre SLAs (that were never too powerful on their own anyway)

[Jaid314]

You're right. I've been playing a Sorc/FvS (2 different lives) and monk hybrid (in total there are two separate characters, one of which that reincarnated on Lamania to test crafting exp carrying over and to test both new class PrEs) for Lamania. I also understand the concept of increasing a cooldown by 2 seconds. I also understand the qualms that Sorcs are feeling with the changes to cooldowns and how they felt didnt have a distinct advantage any more.

I may not necessarily agree with them in entirety but I at least understand where they are coming from.

I also don't cry doom or nerf or get rude and generally avoid being snippy when someone has a differing viewpoint than my own. I try and take the time to converse and learn why certain things are done.


2 seconds and a very slight SP hike when all other spells are being readjusted for the better, are not worth complaining about in this force.


I also understand that if they listened to every single whine without common sense to back it up...we would have 1 of 2 states: Horrendously broken (Super Saiyan anyone? /roll eyes) or absolutely nothing would change ever in-game. Both are paths to ending a game.

Next time you are waiting on a short cooldown and cant possibly think of something to do....Breathe in and then out....bam....2 seconds gone.

ok, well, how would you feel if your monk was *required* to stop punching stuff or doing anything useful every 2 seconds or so unless you spend weapon durability?

because right now, an archmage evoker can actually, by taking every single damaging SLA short of cyclonic blast (and no, it isn't cheap... it's 325 SP just for the SLAs, plus two feats required, plus at least one archmage focus, costing 50 SP. assuming you take all the tiers of archmage - which not everyone does because it is a very expensive PrE in terms of AP - you've just burned 375 of the 400 SP you can even possibly get from the PrE, and that's assuming you don't take another archmage focus. plus it then costs 6 AP just to be able to DPS for less damage than a melee can do. and that's not counting the costs of being an archmage in general, that's just the cost for picking up the cheap nuking ability only.

seriously, go on character builder sometime. take a look at how expensive it actually is. *then* come back and express your opinion.

[Jaid314]

Did I not just say that? Is your DPS higher than that of a no PrE Wizard? I should hope so...you have access to the same repository of spells....cept AM can have increased DCs and SLAs.


When you use 1 button...1 spell for the majority of content and then when that get changed so things are more appealing overall.....and then you set yourself up in the same situation again where you would use SLAs to fill such a hole.....


What did you expect?

they were a second option for looking like you are doing something significant while waiting to cast a real spell. that second option is being taken away. this is not a good thing. now we are back to not having that second option, which puts us right back to where we started... wall of fire is king when it comes to caster DPS through the mid levels. you might see the occasional variation, but even then, it will just be a situation where that specific caster uses *only* the one replacement spell for the vast majority of the game.

[sigtrent]

Sigtrent, I don't usually ask things like this but have you built an Evo-specced archmage? The changes to cooldown and SLA cost are VERY significant.

Its good to ask. I have one but not at high level. I'll take a look another look at the cool-downs and see if it changes my mind, I was only aware of changes to the costs which frankly seemed to small to much matter for balance or effect.

Right now on live, you can use a rotation of Chain Missile, Arcane Bolt, Magic Missile, Arcane Bolt for barely-adequate DPS. The increasing of both the cooldowns AND the costs for these make it a non-viable class at levels 18+ (it was barely viable at this point anyway).

But what do you mean by viable? That there are other better spells to cast at those prices? That the class as a whole is non functional. It isn't worth the AP spent on them?

The thing that gets me about some of the complaints is the scale, as if a class is broken because a PRE is a bit less strong strong than they would like. I can see not liking it, but to call it the end of a class or the doom of DDO, it just strikes me as massive over statement of the case.

I will say that cheapening other single target spells makes me think the discounts archmage had are less meaningful, and then to raise them... seems strange and kind of lame, but not the end of the PRE?

My PM has to wait between attacks with his freebie spells, even if they slowed them down more I'd still use them because the alternative is.... what? melee?

I'd hate to see pre abilities that completely overshadow basic spell casting but I never got the impression that AM spells did that.

[Skyeson]

/signed

[Alexandryte]

ok, well, how would you feel if your monk was *required* to stop punching stuff or doing anything useful every 2 seconds or so unless you spend weapon durability?

Yes...I do that now...I buff people every few seconds on my monk. It breaks attack sequence, uses 2 seconds, leaves me vulnerable right next to a creatures face and guess what? Has a high chance of screwing up if I try and work as fast as cooldowns come up. (and using up the combo in the process)

because right now, an archmage evoker can actually, by taking every single damaging SLA short of cyclonic blast (and no, it isn't cheap... it's 325 SP just for the SLAs, plus two feats required, plus at least one archmage focus, costing 50 SP. assuming you take all the tiers of archmage - which not everyone does because it is a very expensive PrE in terms of AP - you've just burned 375 of the 400 SP you can even possibly get from the PrE, and that's assuming you don't take another archmage focus. plus it then costs 6 AP just to be able to DPS for less damage than a melee can do. and that's not counting the costs of being an archmage in general, that's just the cost for picking up the cheap nuking ability only.

seriously, go on character builder sometime. take a look at how expensive it actually is. *then* come back and express your opinion.

Net of 5 teirs of AM 400
Evoc (up to chain...the last nuking thing)
-125
Mastery
1 school -125
Blast + bolt
-150

Dead even. If you want more you pay more. Thats why the AP costs and the SP costs are as they are. Overall you are learning spells to use at will for less than 15 sp (cost of all end line ones). I think you are just stretching yourself too thin. Or just not taking into full account the balance of how AM is.

[Maegin]

/Signed

You ****ed up my SLA cooldowns and costs because of it. Not cool.

[Alexandryte]

Its good to ask. I have one but not at high level. I'll take a look another look at the cool-downs and see if it changes my mind, I was only aware of changes to the costs which frankly seemed to small to much matter for balance or effect.



But what do you mean by viable? That there are other better spells to cast at those prices? That the class as a whole is non functional. It isn't worth the AP spent on them?

The thing that gets me about some of the complaints is the scale, as if a class is broken because a PRE is a bit less strong strong than they would like. I can see not liking it, but to call it the end of a class or the doom of DDO, it just strikes me as massive over statement of the case.

I will say that cheapening other single target spells makes me think the discounts archmage had are less meaningful, and then to raise them... seems strange and kind of lame, but not the end of the PRE?

My PM has to wait between attacks with his freebie spells, even if they slowed them down more I'd still use them because the alternative is.... what? melee?

I'd hate to see pre abilities that completely overshadow basic spell casting but I never got the impression that AM spells did that.

Agreed on many levels

[Antheal]

It does.

EoP works for any class that receives the feat Magical Training.

So... you can have a perpetual Cure Light Wounds cast every few seconds?

Doesn't that kinda make the Favoured Soul of the Sovereign Host's special Level 20 ability kinda redundant?

[Jaid314]

So... you can have a perpetual Cure Light Wounds cast every few seconds?

Doesn't that kinda make the Favoured Soul of the Sovereign Host's special Level 20 ability kinda redundant?

no.

the sovereign host gets it free always, and can use it to supplement healing to avoid ever reaching the point where CLW is all they have to get the party through the quest. it lets you top people off without costing SP, and can be maximised and empowered so that the amount of hit points you gain is somewhat relevant even at level 20. you can use it whether you have 2 SP available or 2,000 SP available, or even if you have more. it can be used as an option at any time, and is not restricted to when you have nothing left to give.

echoes of power is an essentially worthless ability that only kicks in at all if you have completely exhausted yourself, and then lets you delude yourself into believing you do something meaningful once or twice every twelve seconds so that you can pretend you're still contributing to the quest instead of being dead weight. it is useful at level 1 to some extent because you were probably only going to be throwing CLW with no metamagics anyways, and it therefore provides you with an alternative to wanding people to full health between fights since people should easily be able to survive a single fight at level 1 on average without any healing whatsoever.

[sigtrent]

echoes of power is an essentially worthless ability that only kicks in at all if you have completely exhausted yourself, and then lets you delude yourself into believing you do something meaningful once or twice every twelve seconds so that you can pretend you're still contributing to the quest instead of being dead weight. it is useful at level 1 to some extent because you were probably only going to be throwing CLW with no metamagics anyways, and it therefore provides you with an alternative to wanding people to full health between fights since people should easily be able to survive a single fight at level 1 on average without any healing whatsoever.

EoP is really intended for newbies from what I can tell. For high level characters its more of a consolation prize so you can click a button from time to time. Now my healing amp paladin will like it as I can heal a good 60-90 off a clw, but its still nothing that will save my butt when things are going badly. I think its a nice floor for spell casters but I don't see it really altering any expereinced players play style.