New DPS chart

[NaturalHazard]

compared to a 900hp barb or fighter very squishy.

A good example is my 18\2 Palo monk. I take almost no spell damage and have 530hp. Granted I'm only just starting to work on his ac but the other night in TOD the main tank went down and i ended up with aggro. I lasted about 1 minute because i don't have the ho to deal with his massive melee hits. Anyone with under 700hp should not attempt tanking him regardless of saves or ac. Anything under 400hp and your in danger of dropping. Considering most rogues sit around 400-450 to start its not safe.

I can't even begin to count the number of rogues I've seen drop in shroud part 4 or 5.

Having sub500 hp would make it very hard on a healer due to the potential inability to scroll heal and keep them out of the danger zone.


Again a well built and well played rogue should do well in almost any situation but there are many times that another case is a better choice.

i think a couple of rogues in any given raid is great though.

are you talking about horoth or suulo? horoths disinagrate is nasty.

[Razcar]

I dont like these charts because they make me feel gimp

One thing to consider is that these are almost theoretical examples of max DPS possible (give or take a few points here and there, such as Monk past lives). I would wager that maybe a handful on each server actually do this much DPS. Not only do you need the build for it - with no consideration taken towards defense or versatility when DPS could be had - but you also need the tomes and Epic gear.

[Therigar]

No I just generally get bored of people who aren't too bright.

So who's the better tank - the 400 DPS Barb with 900 HP or the 600 DPS rogue, who's damage goes to ***** when he has agro, with 500? Who are you going to put on elite Horoth?

You can't take this chart as gospel as more than 99% of the people out there WILL NOT have the gear needed to meet this numbers.

See, here's why you should go look in the mirror.

The only one not too bright here is the one talking about tanking Horoth in a DPS thread.

This discussion is about what build give best DPS, not about what build is best suited to tanking Horoth.

But, I do applaud your effort. If you get called for being insulting (this is your second time in this thread) and if you can't produce anything approaching facts to support your position (at least Stool gave it a try) then you change the subject.

Here's the bottom line: until the calculations are shown incorrect or Turbine changes the mechanics, rogues are clearly the DPS leaders.

[Therigar]

are you talking about horoth or suulo? horoths disinagrate is nasty.

Here is the Wiki page on Horoth.

Note that melee damage is in the ~90-115 range. Physical damage: ??/??/104.8 +- 11.5 on Normal/Hard/Elite. This strongly suggests that anyone with ~500HP should be able to withstand melee damage.

Looking further down the page shows disintigrate damage as >500HP. Disintegrate - over 500 damage on failed save Spell DC: 44 or lower on Elite. This strongly suggests that someone with ~500HP won't survive a failed saving throw.

Please be aware, however, that the numbers shown are for ELITE settings.

It is a fair comparison to look only at elite since we are talking about elite builds. But, in that case it is also fair to expect that the others along on the quest are also elite builds. What is unfair is to claim that those filling the tank role are not elite when the ones filling the DPS role are.

And, on normal/hard it is completely within reason to think that a character with ~500HP would successfully tank Horoth most of the time.

[Therigar]

One thing to consider is that these are almost theoretical examples of max DPS possible (give or take a few points here and there, such as Monk past lives). I would wager that maybe a handful on each server actually do this much DPS. Not only do you need the build for it - with no consideration taken towards defense or versatility when DPS could be had - but you also need the tomes and Epic gear.

Completely agree. However, the whole point of max DPS discussion is to look at tricked out builds. Players who look at builds with the mistaken thought that they perform without the tomes and epic gear will certainly be disappointed.

This is why I will often scrub out all but the easiest to obtain, often less than optimal, gear when entering these discussions. Unfortunately, this draws the attention of posters like one or two in this thread who will then discredit the calculations because a tricked out build does better.

It is a no-win discussion with those posters who are not content to debate fully tricked builds. Neither are they content to debate modestly equipped builds. They are, however, good at insults and changing the subject and not supporting their assertions.

What I have never seen is a comparison that goes thru the lifetime of characters at key levels and compares their DPS at that level given typical gear and optimal gear for their levels. I would think that natural divisions would be L6, L9, L12, L15, L18 & L20.

Before L6 it is pretty much irrelevant. The game isn't hard enough that there should be significant challenges. At L6 is when the first level of PrE's kick in. So, while it may still be too early it may be the earliest comparison that would have much meaning.

Going in 3 level increases after that would take into account changes in gear, splashes, etc.

What I would expect to see is that there is very little difference between builds using standard gear -- something that reflects in player's in-game experiences. I would expect that the differences start to show ~L15 as builds mature and better gear comes into play.

Then, at L20, when assumptions about tomes and epic gear apply, I would expect to see the major divisions in ability as has been shown in this thread.

[Bechtinger]

How about adding THF Lord of the Blades Favored soul (maxed str)?

[Therigar]

What strikes me most about this graph is how changing the assumptions and presentation changes the perceived output. Looking at Vanshilar's graph a person would believe that the best DPS build is Ftr12/Ran6/Rog2 followed by Rog13/Ran6/Bar1.

This is because so much of the information streaks off the right side with auto-crit data.

Why is this fair? Well, because we are comparing elite builds with elite gear so looking at epic held mobs is fair.

Why is this unfair? Well, because if the epic mobs are held the differences in damage among the various elite builds with their elite gear possibly doesn't add up to even an extra attack in order to produce the kill.

What do we miss? Well, because we are tricked by the presentation to looking at the ooh, aah numbers of the auto-crits we fail to see that in the other 3 areas the "top" builds do not match the DPS of the rogue.

Put into context with the entire game, I have to question whether a person building for DPS really is getting what they are aiming for if they are only best in 25% of the comparisons and on content that can only be run @ L20 (ie, less than 25% of the total content in the game)?

I suppose for some people the answer has to be yes. But, for most people I'd think that they will be stuck re-evaluating their build choices.

Don't misunderstand. There are a variety of roles in the game and DPS is only one of them. But, if DPS is the role a player is building for then it is fair to question why they are not building L20 half-orc rogues.

[Undone1]

1) These are supposed to be max theoretical DPS correct?
2) Ease of acquisition of a weapon is a non factor correct? (else why use +4 tomes/Esos WITH a augment crystal)
3) Why are you using min2 khopeshs when lit2s do significantly more on normal, and far more to everything else.
4) The ability to buy ~6+ augment crystals for an SOS will be roughly the cost of a chaosblade scroll, ergo epic chaosblades should be counted.

The problem I have seen is if you use theoretical DPS typically you reach a point where "Thats too hard to get" because most likely a sorc spaming spells has a significantly higher DPS than melees, however sustaining it is impossible due to mana pots not costing 0. However when you exclude raw gear on one side its blatent favoritism. If you run epic ADQ and epic DQ2 every day you are likely to get a chaosblade seal/shard as you are likely to get an Esos shard and seal running von 1/6. The differance? Difficulty of the quests prohibits far more people from getting EADQ done but for people who are worrying about that top tier of DPS that this chart would apply to requires you to take into account epic merlith chain+Litany, epic chaosblades, lit2s where applicable, superior greater banes exct.

A better method in my humble opinion would be to list the base DPS for each build with 0 gear and a masterwork weapon, and list the amount a single point of damage over 20 hits scales the build, then you can plug in reasonable and equal gear and bingo you have REAL DPS not theoretical. I would say end game about 5-10% of players have an Esos, of which maby 1% of that 5% can KEEP a devils ruin crystal in it. The people who can keep a devils ruin crystal in it constantly probably are the 1-3% of players able to afford all the end game gear for the build and able to pay 20+ reds for a single scroll.

Personally I believe you need to either 1) Change the target to include 100% max DPS, or 2) Bring the numbers in line and drop the Esos as only a small segment of players actually have it even at endgame.

[grodon9999]

Completely agree. However, the whole point of max DPS discussion is to look at tricked out builds. Players who look at builds with the mistaken thought that they perform without the tomes and epic gear will certainly be disappointed.

This is why I will often scrub out all but the easiest to obtain, often less than optimal, gear when entering these discussions. Unfortunately, this draws the attention of posters like one or two in this thread who will then discredit the calculations because a tricked out build does better.

It is a no-win discussion with those posters who are not content to debate fully tricked builds. Neither are they content to debate modestly equipped builds. They are, however, good at insults and changing the subject and not supporting their assertions.

What I have never seen is a comparison that goes thru the lifetime of characters at key levels and compares their DPS at that level given typical gear and optimal gear for their levels. I would think that natural divisions would be L6, L9, L12, L15, L18 & L20.

Before L6 it is pretty much irrelevant. The game isn't hard enough that there should be significant challenges. At L6 is when the first level of PrE's kick in. So, while it may still be too early it may be the earliest comparison that would have much meaning.

Going in 3 level increases after that would take into account changes in gear, splashes, etc.

What I would expect to see is that there is very little difference between builds using standard gear -- something that reflects in player's in-game experiences. I would expect that the differences start to show ~L15 as builds mature and better gear comes into play.

Then, at L20, when assumptions about tomes and epic gear apply, I would expect to see the major divisions in ability as has been shown in this thread.

I need to ask, have you ever tanked Elite Horoth? Got try that on a 500 HP rogue and get back to us.

[grodon9999]

1) These are supposed to be max theoretical DPS correct?
2) Ease of acquisition of a weapon is a non factor correct? (else why use +4 tomes/Esos WITH a augment crystal)
3) Why are you using min2 khopeshs when lit2s do significantly more on normal, and far more to everything else.
4) The ability to buy ~6+ augment crystals for an SOS will be roughly the cost of a chaosblade scroll, ergo epic chaosblades should be counted.

The problem I have seen is if you use theoretical DPS typically you reach a point where "Thats too hard to get" because most likely a sorc spaming spells has a significantly higher DPS than melees, however sustaining it is impossible due to mana pots not costing 0. However when you exclude raw gear on one side its blatent favoritism. If you run epic ADQ and epic DQ2 every day you are likely to get a chaosblade seal/shard as you are likely to get an Esos shard and seal running von 1/6. The differance? Difficulty of the quests prohibits far more people from getting EADQ done but for people who are worrying about that top tier of DPS that this chart would apply to requires you to take into account epic merlith chain+Litany, epic chaosblades, lit2s where applicable, superior greater banes exct.

A better method in my humble opinion would be to list the base DPS for each build with 0 gear and a masterwork weapon, and list the amount a single point of damage over 20 hits scales the build, then you can plug in reasonable and equal gear and bingo you have REAL DPS not theoretical. I would say end game about 5-10% of players have an Esos, of which maby 1% of that 5% can KEEP a devils ruin crystal in it. The people who can keep a devils ruin crystal in it constantly probably are the 1-3% of players able to afford all the end game gear for the build and able to pay 20+ reds for a single scroll.

Personally I believe you need to either 1) Change the target to include 100% max DPS, or 2) Bring the numbers in line and drop the Esos as only a small segment of players actually have it even at endgame.

It's not that hard to modify the calc yourself to get the variables for the toons you actually play.

But you're right, it'd be good to see what it looks like with just Mineral II weapons, Bloodstone, and madstone boots (for full Bab) as a point of comparison. Also take the bard out of the equation, most of my 6-man quests don't have a bard in it.

[k1ngp1n]

I need to ask, have you ever tanked Elite Horoth? Got try that on a 500 HP rogue and get back to us.

Can I watch?

[Aaxeyu]

1) These are supposed to be max theoretical DPS correct?

Wrong

2) Ease of acquisition of a weapon is a non factor correct?.

Wrong


If you don't like the assumptions, you can change them yourself.

However when you exclude raw gear on one side its blatent favoritism.

So now I'm biased towards THF? That's funny.

[krud]

can't seem to get that latest dps calc converted properly (edit - got it working). Here's where my main melee toon stands if I ever ground out all the gear people throw into those dps calcs.

NeatoMan human 13rog/6pal/1mnk twf khopesh Assassin2

scenario1: 530.00
scenario2: 386.13
scenario3: 254.03

not too shabby, though i'm sure I left out something from the calcs.

[Therigar]

I need to ask, have you ever tanked Elite Horoth? Got try that on a 500 HP rogue and get back to us.

I need to ask, just what does that have to do with a max DPS thread?

The discussion isn't about tanking Horoth, it is about what builds do the most DPS.

Now, I'm completely happy if you feel that it is important to settle for lower DPS in order to fill an additional function -- like tanking Horoth.

But, that isn't what the thread is about.

The thread is about DPS. It is about what build produces the most DPS. Does your Horoth tank do that? No? Then you are in the wrong conversation.

I know, let's start a thread about best build to tank Horoth. Hooray, you win, your 800HP barbarian is better at it than a 500HP rogue. Here's your lollipop. You're a winner!

But, you are not the highest DPS build. Oops, that is what THIS thread is about.

It's OK. Don't cry. You can keep the lollipop.

[grodon9999]

I need to ask, just what does that have to do with a max DPS thread?

The discussion isn't about tanking Horoth, it is about what builds do the most DPS.

Now, I'm completely happy if you feel that it is important to settle for lower DPS in order to fill an additional function -- like tanking Horoth.

But, that isn't what the thread is about.

The thread is about DPS. It is about what build produces the most DPS. Does your Horoth tank do that? No? Then you are in the wrong conversation.

I know, let's start a thread about best build to tank Horoth. Hooray, you win, your 800HP barbarian is better at it than a 500HP rogue. Here's your lollipop. You're a winner!

But, you are not the highest DPS build. Oops, that is what THIS thread is about.

It's OK. Don't cry. You can keep the lollipop.

If you focus 100% on DPS and only DPS you are an idiot. Even in a DPS-thread.

You can't do DPS when you're dead. Survivability is a huge factor.

All toons take a DPS hit when they have aggro, for rogues it's especially huge. All these calcs are situational and having or not having aggro is a HUGE factor in any actual in-game situation.

In your ramblings you were implying that there's no point in playing other DPS toons besides rogue, I state there are things that rogues can't do and you respond with more nonsense. I'm pointing out a big, obvious thing, that's so self-eveident that anyone who actually plays the game and has and IQ above room-temperature shouldn't need spelled out for them, that would make a rogue go splat.

[Therigar]

Can I watch?

You know, it might not work out too well trying to tank Horoth elite on a 500HP character. But what you and Grodon and others never answer is:

WHY WOULD A ROGUE DO THAT?

You cannot all be that stupid. The entire point of a rogue's threat reduction is to avoid pulling aggro. They do not WANT to tank Horoth. What they want is the massive damage they do while some brainless barbarian tanks Horoth.

Duh, its ok boss, I gots da big ugly demony thingy. He hateses me a whole bunches.

To which I have to say, Good boy!

(I have to resist the urge to say Roll over, sit up, play dead. )

Because the point here is that the rogue wants the DPS. So doing something that isn't DPS related is not inside the rogue's realm of activities.

I think that Grodon would like us to believe that because rogues might be less than the best choices to tank Horoth elite that he's somehow identified "lots of things" that a DPS rogue cannot do.

But, tanking is NOT a DPS role. It is as stupid as saying, Barbarians can't disable traps. It is true, but who cares? What does it have to do with the subject? Nothing....

Neither does tanking Horoth elite have anything to do with max DPS builds.

[k1ngp1n]

I need to ask, just what does that have to do with a max DPS thread?

The discussion isn't about tanking Horoth, it is about what builds do the most DPS.

Now, I'm completely happy if you feel that it is important to settle for lower DPS in order to fill an additional function -- like tanking Horoth.

But, that isn't what the thread is about.

The thread is about DPS. It is about what build produces the most DPS. Does your Horoth tank do that? No? Then you are in the wrong conversation.

I know, let's start a thread about best build to tank Horoth. Hooray, you win, your 800HP barbarian is better at it than a 500HP rogue. Here's your lollipop. You're a winner!

But, you are not the highest DPS build. Oops, that is what THIS thread is about.

It's OK. Don't cry. You can keep the lollipop.

Need I point out that you asked this question:

I think this is a false statement. Then again, you've given me hassles over rogue DPS before. Please substantiate your claim.

Which was a response to:

Have been for some time. But there's a lot of stuff a rogue can't do.

Which of course was a response to:

So, apart from Abbot this makes it clear that properly equipped a L20 rogue is best DPS at present time in DDO. Is that what I'm reading?

I have to say dude that you are very bad at trolling. Here is a handy guide that you might like to reference. While it deals primarily with Usenet, I think you will find the parallels applicable to your current situation.

Knowledge is power, after all.

http://www.urban75.com/Mag/troll.html

[k1ngp1n]

WHY WOULD A ROGUE DO THAT?

Exactly. You asked what are things that a rogue is not good at. Thank you for answering yourself.

[Consumer]

if You Focus 100% On Dps And Only Dps You Are An Idiot. Even In A Dps-thread.

Blasphemy!

[Aaxeyu]

I have to say dude that you are very bad at trolling.

But he is right, how well a rogue can tank elite ToD has nothing to do whether rogues can be considered the "top DPS class" or not.