New DPS chart

[Kinerd]

I also am curious, why does the THF fighter twitching get more dps against no fort mobs than the THF fighter not twitching, but the THF barb twitching gets less DPS in that situation than the THF barb not twitching?

Barbs have better glancing blows than fighters. I really dislike Open Office so can't look at the spreadsheet myself yet, but that's my guess.

[Vanshilar]

A couple of things:

1. Keep in mind that the only THF valid weapon speeds are for greataxe (considered "fast THF") and greatsword (considered "slow THF"). Unfortunately it seems like other THF weapons do have their own speeds which varies slightly for this. THF twitch is an even worse offender; for example, quarterstaff attack speeds match greataxe attack speeds in regular standing attacks but are far slower when twitching. Far as I know, all TWF weapons have the same weapon speed, or at least dwarven axe and khopesh do anyway.

2. The tempest alacrity bonus was removed in Update 7. There were rumors that rangers were going to be nerfed in Update 7, with people wondering why they would do that considering the nerf that rangers got in Update 5 (with the change of the tempest buffs). Hence as I mentioned in this thread, the nerf of rangers wasn't really a "new" nerf, it was just that they didn't remove tempest alacrity with the rest of the changes in Update 5 and would be doing it in Update 7. They were getting the alacrity bonus before the manyshot bug fix, based on looking through my videos from that time period.

3. Rogues seem to be doing too much damage vs 100% fort. I haven't calculated 100% fort though, so don't know what the figures "should" be. Apparently opportunist won't give you sneak attacks vs 100% fort mobs like constructs and undead, although it will give you 10% chance to crit (note that chance to bypass crit and chance to sneak attack are two different rolls even though they work off the same number, i.e. fortification %). In other words, against 100% fort, you'll have a 10% chance to crit, but you still have a 0% chance to sneak attack. Against 50% fort, however, opportunist will give you an extra 5% chance to crit and 5% chance to sneak attack, i.e. it multiplies with the target's fort%. In other words, against 50% fort, the target is effectively 45% fort vs crits and 45% fort vs sneak attacks. This was discussed here.

4. As I mentioned here, the DPS for most of the DPS builds are all pretty similar. The Monster lost a bit of ground in Update 5-7 (as did all 6 tempest splash builds), but is still pretty competitive since it still has tempest 1 which is about 5% more attacks (and hence DPS). The Blizt, which substitute 6 barb levels for the Monster's 6 ranger levels, maintains roughly the same amount of DPS but added DCs for stunning -- but the Monster, due to the extra attacks, end up doing more DPS against auto-crits, so which is better vs auto-crits (epics) is somewhat arguable.

[The_Phenx]

How about putting a thief acrobat on there.

I realize we are only at tier II of the prestige but I am curious nonetheless.

[Kinerd]

I don't know the monk class well enough to make proper calculations of monk strikes, so instead of guessing I simply leave it out.

One thing you could do is not consider monk strikes at all: just put in full off-hand strength bonus, the higher attack rate, handwraps + rings instead of greensteel, take out Ravager, and keep all the other gear the same. That would be interesting as a starting point, at least. Once I get one of these online file format converters to work I'll probably poke around a little myself.

[The_Phenx]

A couple of things:

1. Keep in mind that the only THF valid weapon speeds are for greataxe (considered "fast THF") and greatsword (considered "slow THF"). Unfortunately it seems like other THF weapons do have their own speeds which varies slightly for this. THF twitch is an even worse offender; for example, quarterstaff attack speeds match greataxe attack speeds in regular standing attacks but are far slower when twitching. Far as I know, all TWF weapons have the same weapon speed, or at least dwarven axe and khopesh do anyway.

Some quarterstaff data for you in the hands of a 20 rogue acrobat II

Unhasted - 102 swings per min
Hasted - 112 swings per min
Haste + 30% boost - 138 swings per min
Madstone + boost - 141 swings per min

[basketaske]

This may seem uninformed, but why compare epic SoS to minII khopesh? Is khopesh that much better than the other one handed weapons that it needs to be compared to the best two handed weapon in the game? Or is there some other reason?

[Consumer]

This may seem uninformed, but why compare epic SoS to minII khopesh?

Both break DR, lit II is a better Khopesh to use though as it provides higher DPS in a lot of circumstances.

[Therigar]

I remember you now and I remember that you don't have a clue as to how anything works in this game.

ROFL.

And I remember that you can make all sorts of assertions but never support them with anything approaching facts.

Your latest was that "theres a lot of stuff a rogue can't do" which I ask you to tell us about. Because, I think it is just more of your ego making a claim that evidence doesn't support.

So, we have the situation where rogue L20 holds max DPS on 0% and 50% fortification bosses -- which represent the clear majority of boss encounters in the game.

What I want from you, which you obviously cannot produce, is a listing of the stuff a rogue cannot do. If you can't provide it then you can be insulting -- which seems your normal response -- or you can just stop posting (which we know you won't do).

So, gloves off, challenge on. Tell us, what is in your list of "a lot of stuff" that a rogue cannot do?

[Aaxeyu]

3. Rogues seem to be doing too much damage vs 100% fort. I haven't calculated 100% fort though, so don't know what the figures "should" be. Apparently opportunist won't give you sneak attacks vs 100% fort mobs like constructs and undead, although it will give you 10% chance to crit (note that chance to bypass crit and chance to sneak attack are two different rolls even though they work off the same number, i.e. fortification %). In other words, against 100% fort, you'll have a 10% chance to crit, but you still have a 0% chance to sneak attack. Against 50% fort, however, opportunist will give you an extra 5% chance to crit and 5% chance to sneak attack, i.e. it multiplies with the target's fort%. In other words, against 50% fort, the target is effectively 45% fort vs crits and 45% fort vs sneak attacks. This was discussed here.

That's interesting. I simply removed 10% fort for the rogue, so the numbers are indeed too high.

[The_Phenx]

This may seem uninformed, but why compare epic SoS to minII khopesh? Is khopesh that much better than the other one handed weapons that it needs to be compared to the best two handed weapon in the game? Or is there some other reason?

Its typically what people weild for those builds I would assume, without untrackable things like lightning strike.

Personally I feel all tests should be done with a Min II.. THF or TWF or Staff.... etc.

[Aaxeyu]

One thing you could do is not consider monk strikes at all: just put in full off-hand strength bonus, the higher attack rate, handwraps + rings instead of greensteel, take out Ravager, and keep all the other gear the same. That would be interesting as a starting point, at least. Once I get one of these online file format converters to work I'll probably poke around a little myself.

Yea, you can quite easily get there. Full offhand strnegth bonus, unarmed attackspeed, base fist damage at all levels and burst effects is all in the calc.
I'm sure someone can, or already have, work out how much DPS monks gets from their strikes.

[Consumer]

Yea, you can quite easily get there. Full offhand strnegth bonus, unarmed attackspeed, base fist damage at all levels and burst effects is all in the calc.
I'm sure someone can, or already have, work out how much DPS monks gets from their strikes.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=264978 - post from a while back, would have to be updated.

[Aaxeyu]

This may seem uninformed, but why compare epic SoS to minII khopesh? Is khopesh that much better than the other one handed weapons that it needs to be compared to the best two handed weapon in the game? Or is there some other reason?

I'm too lazy to show DPS with Lit II khopeshes in some situations and Min II in other. And if I had used epic chaos blades there would have been alot of complaints about that. It's quite alot harder to get 2 chaos blades than to get 1 Esos.
And at the same time I'm too lazy to show DPS with Min II greataxe/greatsword in some situations and Esos in others. And if I would have left Esos out there would have been alot of complaints about that.

Min II vs Esos is the path of least resistance I suppose

[Illiain]

That's interesting. I simply removed 10% fort for the rogue, so the numbers are indeed too high.

It works similar to concealment effects. How they have a chance to 10-50% chance to miss after a sucessful hit is rolled.

When you roll a sucessful threat+confirmation the computer rolls to see if fort resists the crit. Opportunist has a 10% chance to bypass a crit that is resisted because of fort.

[jakeelala]

Download the calc (and open office) and plug in the numbers.

Ranger 12 splashes work our great with anything that adds damage per swing. Ranger 12/rogue 7/whatever 1 is a great setup.

I have a ranger 12/pally 6/monk 2 that i am especially fond of. Divine Sacrafice pertty much unlimited on a TWF Tempest with FE (and rams and DM and DF). Pretty fun.

[Therigar]

It works similar to concealment effects. How they have a chance to 10-50% chance to miss after a sucessful hit is rolled.

When you roll a sucessful threat+confirmation the computer rolls to see if fort resists the crit. Opportunist has a 10% chance to bypass a crit that is resisted because of fort.

Which, if previous posts are accurate, results in a blanket 5% instead of the 10% on 50% fortified mobs (10% of 50 is 5 unless math has changed). Translated this means against a rogue's opportunist effective fortification drops to 45%. Is that all correct?

Against 100% fortification it should give a blanket 10%, reducing effective fortification to 90%. As has been posted, this applies to criticals only. I think that is what I am reading here.

Just in a math sense, would that mean rogue calculations against 45% and 90% fortification would be equivalent to other class calculations against 50% and 100% fort?

[stoolcannon]

who pays attention to kill counts ?? they don't mean anything besides you got the last hit on the mob , but kudos to you for kicking arse and not dying its always good to be versatile in this game , but honestly whats up with the drow wizzard inquiring minds want to know now

Everyone looks at kill counts even if they don't admit it. First thing Kyo (the rogue) said at the end of the quest was "Beat you by 1".

It's all for fun but I do use it as a personal measure to see what I contributed. Most of the time it's a larger number than my death count too.

As for the Drow, he's a wee bit squishy as Drow can tend to be and I've almost deleted him twice now when I was playing him while having "one of those days" where you can't do anything right. Drow Wizard + brainless play do not mix.

He's actually a pretty decent wizard for first life, 40 enchant DC's, 38 Necro DC's, Spell Pen VIII etc it's just his max 12hp that does him in :P

[stoolcannon]

ROFL.

And I remember that you can make all sorts of assertions but never support them with anything approaching facts.

Your latest was that "theres a lot of stuff a rogue can't do" which I ask you to tell us about. Because, I think it is just more of your ego making a claim that evidence doesn't support.

So, we have the situation where rogue L20 holds max DPS on 0% and 50% fortification bosses -- which represent the clear majority of boss encounters in the game.

What I want from you, which you obviously cannot produce, is a listing of the stuff a rogue cannot do. If you can't provide it then you can be insulting -- which seems your normal response -- or you can just stop posting (which we know you won't do).

So, gloves off, challenge on. Tell us, what is in your list of "a lot of stuff" that a rogue cannot do?

Things a rogue can't do (well/consistently/as well as other classes):

Kill undead
Survive while under aggro

For the most part this is true. If you told me a rogue was going to main tank horoth I'd have to lol. I suppose you could do it with some super ac + improved evasion, I guess those builds probably exist but I'd have to see it to believe it.

Rogues are fantastic additions to any party and I recently ran a TOD with 4 of them gambling on the fact that someone was going to take aggro at some point and we completed just fine. I am always happy to have them in any of my groups because I know very well how much DPS they put out. But Junk is right, there are simply things they cannot do effectively.

I'd actually love to see a 2 heals, 1 bard, 1 caster, 8 rogue TOD to see how it turned out. Then again on hard and elite (adjusting #healers and rogues accordingly).

[kazeikan]

How does 18barb/2 fighter twf fare against monster and blitz? Was curious since that appears to be another popular variant.

Scratch that saw the 18/1/1 consumer posted close enough

[Therigar]

Things a rogue can't do (well/consistently/as well as other classes):

Kill undead
Survive while under aggro

Well, I appreciate your putting in these thoughts. But, it is a far cry from "lots of things." I mean, let's be honest, it is two things and you need a caveat to it as well.

We could list every type of undead and include every type of construct -- and that would be an impressive list. But, DPS discussions really are about end bosses. As we have seen thus far, that list is dramatically smaller -- and, in the one example provided melee DPS is noted as not being the main tactic. Against non-boss undead the drop off in DPS is mostly irrelevant -- certainly not an argument in favor of some other build.

And, I'm not sure that too many people have really worked very hard on the second part of your list. This thread isn't really the place for the discussion, but....

I am assuming that in the calculations the rogue is a max STR half-orc with no other stats really being important. How squishy is that half-orc if combined with min DEX to qualify TWF and remaining points in CON?

IMO that is something worth considerable discussion over in the rogue forum.

FWIW, changes to opportunist calculations are needed before we get too far into the discussion. Instead of the original assumption of 40%/90% we need the numbers run at 45%/90%. We also need to see the impact of removing SA against 100% fort.