New DPS chart

[stille_nacht]

why arent any 12 barb or 13 rogue builds in there :[

[Aaxeyu]

why arent any 12 barb or 13 rogue builds in there :[

Because you are supposed to download the calc and do it yourself if you want to see a particular build

[karl_k0ch]

Everytime I see this thread bumped/necro'd I think: Ohh, sweet, a new DPS chart, just realizing this the old new DPS chart.
This is actually at least the third time this is happening.

[Emili]

Everytime I see this thread bumped/necro'd I think: Ohh, sweet, a new DPS chart, just realizing this the old new DPS chart.
This is actually at least the third time this is happening.

Likewise


Plus...

I also feel badly there are questions asked and no one bothered to answer ... like this one one page back - You'd imagine someone could have told him weapon specialization and greater weapon specialization.

Quick question. Is the twf fighter receiving 4 extra damage from racial damage enhancements and, if so, why?

[HellsChaos]

I became a barb for the DPS...i mean really, what else can he/she do that cannot be changed/granted with gear?? So I can have a few hundred more hp...woow. Sigh. I knew that rogues with sneak attack can out dps a barb, but the rest is surprising to me..makes me not want to roll another barb

[Emili]

I became a barb for the DPS...i mean really, what else can he/she do that cannot be changed/granted with gear?? So I can have a few hundred more hp...woow. Sigh. I knew that rogues with sneak attack can out dps a barb, but the rest is surprising to me..makes me not want to roll another barb

Why the bloody hell are you sad? ... If looking at that old chart consider this - all those numbers they're outlining are at DPS of peak at the time, bast of gear, utilizing maximum boost such as fighter haste boost (20 sec)... even the rogue is rogue haste boosted - in game DPS in practice become entirely different. The character responds to you - it does not produce DPS by itself - your actions with it are what produce results. I've seen some awesome heavy DPS builds swing at air or run the wrong way or beat on trash when they best be beating on the boss... you're the killer DPS - not the toon.

[sephiroth1084]

I became a barb for the DPS...i mean really, what else can he/she do that cannot be changed/granted with gear?? So I can have a few hundred more hp...woow. Sigh. I knew that rogues with sneak attack can out dps a barb, but the rest is surprising to me..makes me not want to roll another barb

Well, barbarians aren't that far behind those ahead of them on DPS while likely requiring less gear and maintaining that same level of DPS for longer. 8 rages comes out to somewhere well over 20 minutes, whereas that fighter isn't getting more than 15 minutes of Power Surge and is getting much less than that in Haste Boost.

Plus, 100-200 more HP and always-on DR 7/- to 9/- is pretty awesome. Barbs have a little more going for them than DPS. Oh, and attaining very similar trip and stun DCs to a fighter while investing fewer feats or AP.

And their DPS tends to be negatively affected less by enemy type: a barbarian is swinging a weapon for basically the same damage whether they need a blunt weapon to bypass DR or not, whereas a fighter is losing a big chunk of their DPS if they have to switch weapons, or if they aren't bypassing DR because they want the higher to-hit or whatever from their focused weapon.

[Aaxeyu]

Why the bloody hell are you sad? ... If looking at that old chart consider this - all those numbers they're outlining are at DPS of peak at the time, bast of gear, utilizing maximum boost such as fighter haste boost (20 sec)... even the rogue is rogue haste boosted - in game DPS in practice become entirely different. The character responds to you - it does not produce DPS by itself - your actions with it are what produce results. I've seen some awesome heavy DPS builds swing at air or run the wrong way or beat on trash when they best be beating on the boss... you're the killer DPS - not the toon.

Ofcourse the rogue is haste boosted, why wouldn't it be? Haste boost is absolutely amazing for your DPS. Both "on paper" and ingame.


Good toons don't kill mobs, but they sure help!
What exactly are you trying to say with your anecdotes here? That it doesn't matter what build you play?
Well that is obviosuly wrong, your performance is limited by your character.

[sephiroth1084]

Ofcourse the rogue is haste boosted, why wouldn't it be? Haste boost is absolutely amazing for your DPS. Both "on paper" and ingame.


Good toons don't kill mobs, but they sure help!
What exactly are you trying to say with your anecdotes here? That it doesn't matter what build you play?
Well that is obviosuly wrong, your performance is limited by your character.

It goes both ways.

If you forget to activate Haste Boost, or use them up too quickly in a quest where shrines are more than 2 minutes apart, or are not very adept at keeping the damage going on moving monsters, or ensuring you don't have aggro, or staying alive, or... Then your character is necessarily limited by your abilities.

I think Emili's underlying point, and my explicit one, were that the DPS chart is merely a snapshot at absolute peak performance of each character, and does not take into account differences in player skill, long quests or variances in monster representation and activity. The charts, while useful, aren't absolute values.

[Aaxeyu]

It goes both ways.

If you forget to activate Haste Boost, or use them up too quickly in a quest where shrines are more than 2 minutes apart, or are not very adept at keeping the damage going on moving monsters, or ensuring you don't have aggro, or staying alive, or... Then your character is necessarily limited by your abilities.

Yea you might not always be playing that your characters limit, but it's still present. Situations like that where player mistakes or inexperience effects your DPS are completely uninteresting when comparing different builds.

I think Emili's underlying point, and my explicit one, were that the DPS chart is merely a snapshot at absolute peak performance of each character, and does not take into account differences in player skill, long quests or variances in monster representation and activity. The charts, while useful, aren't absolute values.

It's not really peak performance. Take epic velah for example, there you don't need to take the downtime between boosts into account, and those numbers would be significantly higher than the ones that are presented.
There are many situations where the same applies.

But you are right, the charts show no absolute values.

[Alex301]

Likewise


Plus...

I also feel badly there are questions asked and no one bothered to answer ... like this one one page back - You'd imagine someone could have told him weapon specialization and greater weapon specialization.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex301
Quick question. Is the twf fighter receiving 4 extra damage from racial damage enhancements and, if so, why?

Actually i thought those damage bonuses were covered by the row entitled 'Weapon specialization' :P. On the calc i downloaded at least, the TWF fighter is receiving a +4 damage in the the racial damage enhancements row. I assumed this field was referring to the bonus Horc got to THF damage (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Enhan...Melee_Damage_I) but i do not believe the TWF fighter would be affected by this. No other TWF build is receiving this damage enhancement bonus either.

I would still appreciate an explanation of this.

[Aaxeyu]

Actually i thought those damage bonuses were covered by the row entitled 'Weapon specialization' :P. On the calc i downloaded at least, the TWF fighter is receiving a +4 damage in the the racial damage enhancements row. I assumed this field was referring to the bonus Horc got to THF damage (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Enhan...Melee_Damage_I) but i do not believe the TWF fighter would be affected by this. No other TWF build is receiving this damage enhancement bonus either.

I would still appreciate an explanation of this.

I most likely made a mistake when entering the numbers then. Good spot.

[Alex301]

Thanks for the response.

I assumed it was just a small oversight but I thought it was worth checking as it makes a significant impact on the TWF fighter's rank and relative DPS, e.g. the THF fighter would actually have higher dps if we exclude this enhancement bonus.

[zealous]

You missed the 99.49, 102.22, and 93.23 from the other styles.

No I didn't. I've explicitly stated that all effects need to be accounted for. I've demonstrated how effects resulting in a higher than base line can be accounted for and that it's exactly equivalent to using 1s for dps. How can you possibly miss the point?

You are entirely free to choose the standard unit for time, you can set it at whatever you want. If you want to compare diverse builds you can set it to the lowest common denominator and express all others as a bonus on top of that.

You can only do this by setting a fixed value to damage/swing and declaring it equal for all styles.Neither is the case in DDO.I'm not sure why you would want to.

No, allow me to work some magics of math:

We have two characters, A and B.
A has a per swing damage of 93, B of 93.
A has a ability called awsum that adds 7 damage/swing
A has a swing speed of 86,5 (swings/min)
B has a swing speed of 93,23 (swings/min)

To calculate the dps of A, I multiply the damage by the swing speed: 86.5*(93+7)=8650. I want it in dps so I divide by 60: 8650/60~144

To calculate the dps of B, I multiply the damage by the swing speed: 93,23*93~8670. I want it in dps so I divide by 60: 8670/60=144.5

I want to look at the differences in greater detail so I want to examine how much of the dps of A is due to the base damage and how much is due to awsum.
93*86.5/60~134dps is due to base damage
7*86.5/60~10dps is due to awsum

I want to look at the differences in greater detail so I want to examine how the higher attack speed of B affects things but I can't fathom how. Then I think a bit more and realize that a*(x-y)+a*y=a*x!
Using that I can indeed determine how much of the dps of A is due to having a faster attack speed!!
I imagine B has the same base attack speed as A but multiplied by a factor!
93*86.5/60~134dps is due to base attack speed
93*(93,23-86,5)/60~10.5dps is due to the increased attack speed B has

But hey! If everything is multiplied by 86.5/60, couldn't I just divide everything with 86.5/60 and simplify the calcs?
A would then be 93+7 and B be 93 + 0.078*93 ((93,23/86,5)-1)

If I want it all back in dps I can just multiply with 86,5/60!!!

There is no build that has to choose between Frenzied Berserker and monk unarmed speed. If you're trying to compare monk damage output to barbarian damage output, this comparison gets you nowhere

To compare builds? To compare relative worth of different abilities/weapons/effects?

I've already stated that it gets me somewhere. It gives me a number I can easily relate to. I can see that the unarmed speed for a certain build is of comparable power to FB1. Also, it doesn't take much imagination to translate those 2d6 into some other 2d6 or even to say strength or something entirely else. You can do this using dps too, I simply prefer to use a base that gives me numbers I'm familiar with and can find representations of in game.

which brings us back to the fundamental point - "Due to dependencies between weapon types, attack speeds, feats and class abilities, having a compiled number such as DPS doesn't tell me much." Damage per time unit is the only way to accurately compare damage output. You cannot accurately relate damage per swing to damage output in a generalizable way.

*sigh*
It's exactly the same, just using a different standard unit of time. I've shown you exactly how this can be done and that it is perfectly equivalent.

There is no reason to trade accuracy for simplicity, as your method demands.

Are you deliberately misinterpreting me or do you still not get the point?
It is simply scaling dps by a factor corresponding to the time it takes to perform a standard swing. Standard swing can be arbitrarily chosen depending on what is most suitable for the comparison you want to make, the base swing speed of weapons for example.
[brasklapp]And with weapons I don't include unarmed, and with base swing speed I don't include twitching.[/brasklapp]
There is no tradeoff of accuracy.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

It goes both ways.

If you forget to activate Haste Boost, or use them up too quickly in a quest where shrines are more than 2 minutes apart, or are not very adept at keeping the damage going on moving monsters, or ensuring you don't have aggro, or staying alive, or... Then your character is necessarily limited by your abilities.

I think Emili's underlying point, and my explicit one, were that the DPS chart is merely a snapshot at absolute peak performance of each character, and does not take into account differences in player skill, long quests or variances in monster representation and activity. The charts, while useful, aren't absolute values.

Yup, it's something like
40% gear, 30% skill, 30% build = DPS.
When it comes to THF twitching fighters the "skill" % goes up to like 50%.

Don't you mean 5 minutes?

This calculation, and in this perticular vacuum is actually VERY favorable for barbarians and especially paladins. First of all because it assumes the paladin always fights evil outsiders, which, isn't that common anymore. It also assumes he uses divine sacrifice every 3 seconds. Which is very tedious and it's very easy to miss one or two, or get it down to each 4 second.
For the barbarian it's favored because it assumes 5 minute-fights. We all know that there are a grand total of zero 5 minute fights in the game. And most fights are actually <20 seconds, leaving the ones with haste boost at 100% efficiency, compared to the 66% they're accounted for.

As has been metioned Velah is a really good example of where rogues and fighters will devastate the numbers provided in the chart, since they'll actually be at 100% boost efficiency rather than 66%. Same goes for almost every red-named boss in any quests, and some raid bosses.

Of course, there are situations where this is favored for rogues and fighters, and anyone with boosts for that matter. And that's when you have a "not-so-good-group", and you really struggle between the shrines, and it takes more than 5 minutes to clear it. Well, in such a scenario and with such a group it will always be better to play the barbarian rather than the ones relying on boosts.

[The_Phenx]

I spose but my kensai has 10 boosts.. and can easily hit 12.

I can literally non stop boost in deeps epic for example... both haste and power surge.

[Mumu720]

Can someone answer a question for me... What makes the pali do that mcuh dps to a 100 fort boss? Surely not all 100 fort bosses are eo(i guess i dont really know), so what puts them ahead?
Edit: one more question, what puts a thf pali ahead of a twf pali? You would think it would be the other way around cause the divine sac and exalted smite and all that tend to favor twf dont they?

[Emili]

Ofcourse the rogue is haste boosted, why wouldn't it be? Haste boost is absolutely amazing for your DPS. Both "on paper" and ingame.


Good toons don't kill mobs, but they sure help!
What exactly are you trying to say with your anecdotes here? That it doesn't matter what build you play?
Well that is obviosuly wrong, your performance is limited by your character.

My point to him is that even though a barb is behind where others are boosted ... others are not holding constant boosts either. You know I actually get annoyed when we're all ready and I hit a boost and someone screams wait up... and the rest of the party stops dead still in an epic.

[Emili]

I spose but my kensai has 10 boosts.. and can easily hit 12.

I can literally non stop boost in deeps epic for example... both haste and power surge.

Epic deeps is not very epic.

... and I have 10 kensie boost also but to manage 12 would have to drop something - maybe dps - to pull off the ap... So jensie boosts I consider 10 min between shrining... each section of deeps is shrine rich because it's original design is for mid level questing... The best epic quests in game are still in the desert.

Haste boosts come out to 10 which have a 10 sec cool down but 19.5 active applicable so total 5 minutes between shrines where only 3 min 15 seconds between shrine are really under the influence of haste boost - Along with that they have a 11.5 second spot between where they cannot be applied. Unless every mob -bosses included - was attacked and killed within 19 seconds and we waited 11.5 seconds before we attacked the next then it is erroneous to claim "I keep haste boost up constantly on every mob." ... on my rogue I have 7 haste boosts so am even more picky with them.

[Kinerd]

No I didn't. I've explicitly stated that all effects need to be accounted for. I've demonstrated how effects resulting in a higher than base line can be accounted for and that it's exactly equivalent to using 1s for dps. How can you possibly miss the point?

You've demonstrated how to inaccurately account for speeds higher than your declared base line - c.f. 8 damage/swing for monk speed. 1 second vs. .684 seconds has never been the issue, the issue has been you equivocating different dimensions.

No, allow me to work some magics of math:

We have two characters, A and B.
A has a per swing damage of 93, B of 93.
A has a ability called awsum that adds 7 damage/swing
A has a swing speed of 86,5 (swings/min)
B has a swing speed of 93,23 (swings/min)

To calculate the dps of A, I multiply the damage by the swing speed: 86.5*(93+7)=8650. I want it in dps so I divide by 60: 8650/60~144

To calculate the dps of B, I multiply the damage by the swing speed: 93,23*93~8670. I want it in dps so I divide by 60: 8670/60=144.5

I want to look at the differences in greater detail so I want to examine how much of the dps of A is due to the base damage and how much is due to awsum.
93*86.5/60~134dps is due to base damage
7*86.5/60~10dps is due to awsum

I want to look at the differences in greater detail so I want to examine how the higher attack speed of B affects things but I can't fathom how. Then I think a bit more and realize that a*(x-y)+a*y=a*x!
Using that I can indeed determine how much of the dps of A is due to having a faster attack speed!!
I imagine B has the same base attack speed as A but multiplied by a factor!
93*86.5/60~134dps is due to base attack speed
93*(93,23-86,5)/60~10.5dps is due to the increased attack speed B has

As I said, if you declare that the styles have the same damage per swing, then your rules of thumb are fine. In your example, A's base damage is the same as B's, and sure enough the damage/swing from speed is about 8. If A's base damage was 93 and B's was 50, it would not be.

Are you deliberately misinterpreting me or do you still not get the point?
It is simply scaling dps by a factor corresponding to the time it takes to perform a standard swing. Standard swing can be arbitrarily chosen depending on what is most suitable for the comparison you want to make, the base swing speed of weapons for example.
[brasklapp]And with weapons I don't include unarmed, and with base swing speed I don't include twitching.[/brasklapp]
There is no tradeoff of accuracy.

My guess is you believe the things you're saying, but they are simply not true. Not sure how else to put it.