Feedback: Make Some Traps!

[altagar]

...
Either way, every box I disable I get some parts....

I'm definitely not getting parts every box I disable, even on traps with elemental effects. Type of ingredient is fixed for a box, the amount appears random and independent of disable roll, and I can't tell if it is quest difficulty dependent.

[altagar]

There's a different trap part for each element, plus force, mechanical, and the elusive, magic. It's not too bad really. If they really want an ingredient bag, they can buy one from a general vendor. And any level of player can go talk to the twelve guy to get the free bag.

Tried out some of the second level fire traps. Gathered up a bunch of kobolds on normal, and set one up. They all fried. Was pretty amusing to watch.

There is also a poison trap part, but the device does not currently take it.

[altagar]

Sure, but trap DC is not something significant to give them. Traps do not fit well into the typical combat style of DDO, so it would be a mistake to try using powerful traps as a counterbalance against the abilities of assassin or acrobat.

Traps are a minor side feature that's fun to screw with but mostly a waste of time. Mechanics can have +3 DC from their DD bonus and another +3 just from being Mechanic, and that +6 is enough. Going up by another +40 is unjustified. Probably all player trap DC should be on the lines of 10+level+int, to be balanced with other offensive DCs.

The problem with this is there is nothing that prevents an Assassin from doing both. They can make and use the same traps and grenades if they have the patience. And it takes a lot of patience to farm the ingredients.

[thebrute7]

I feel like the biggest current problem with traps is that we need to make more of the stronger traps per set because making more of the weaker ones is currently more cost effective, also the traps need a damage increase whether this comes from the mechanic PrE or a feat you can take or a sepperate enhancement line I don't care. Also mechanics need to either be able to make more traps per set than other rogues or the traps need higher DC's, maybe even both since currently the mechanic line isn't really useful.

[Coldin]

I'm definitely not getting parts every box I disable, even on traps with elemental effects. Type of ingredient is fixed for a box, the amount appears random and independent of disable roll, and I can't tell if it is quest difficulty dependent.

It might help that I'm Mechanic II over on Lamannia. Playing with it some more though, there are a few times I'll do a trap and get nothing where I know I got a part before. These are also the traps where I'm typically only getting a few parts at a time, and not 10+ parts.

So, maybe trap box parts are actually rolling against a table, and the mechanic line gives a bonus to that table roll. On one of the table is 0 parts, on the other is some max value for that level of trap. After a certain point, the bonus always passes all the 0 part entries.

Anyway, just a thought.

[altagar]

I feel like the biggest current problem with traps is that we need to make more of the stronger traps per set because making more of the weaker ones is currently more cost effective, also the traps need a damage increase whether this comes from the mechanic PrE or a feat you can take or a sepperate enhancement line I don't care. Also mechanics need to either be able to make more traps per set than other rogues or the traps need higher DC's, maybe even both since currently the mechanic line isn't really useful.

On your first point, I agree the resources required to the output received doesn't make sense. The binding resource will be the elemental trap components unless they become purchasable. Based on prior posts by Coldin, his hypothesis on the linear nature with unconfirmed in brackets[], and my own testing we have:

Resources Grenades Mines
10 10@2d6 (ml2) [5@10d6]
25 10@4d6 (ml4) 5@15d6 (ml5)
50 10@6d6 5@20d6 (ml7)
75 [10@8d6] 5@25d6
100 10@10d6 (ml10) [5@30d6]

Grenades can be used with UMD by non-rogues, mines by rogues only.


This results in binding resource efficiency (total d6/resources) of:

Resources Grenades Mines
10 2.0 [5.0]
25 1.6 3.0
50 1.2 2.0
75 [1.07] 1.6
100 1.0 [1.5]


I am reserving judgement on the damage increase until I figure out whether they use real d6 like weapons or fake d6 like spells.


Short of only allowing device access to mechanics, I don't see any quick fixes. The int mod on crossbows just isn't enough to overcome the slow rate of fire of repeating crossbows, even if you spend the extra feats.

One thing that could work would be to make be able to make bolts instead of (or in addition to) grenades, but then I think you are going to have more difficult game balance issues due to the fire rate.

[altagar]

It might help that I'm Mechanic II over on Lamannia. Playing with it some more though, there are a few times I'll do a trap and get nothing where I know I got a part before. These are also the traps where I'm typically only getting a few parts at a time, and not 10+ parts.

So, maybe trap box parts are actually rolling against a table, and the mechanic line gives a bonus to that table roll. On one of the table is 0 parts, on the other is some max value for that level of trap. After a certain point, the bonus always passes all the 0 part entries.

Anyway, just a thought.

I'm mechanic II as well, level 12 rogue/16 overall. I have gotten as many as 8 (in HIPS), but this was a dormant toon so getting to inspired quarter boxes just isn't going to happen.

[MadFloyd]

Thanks for all the feedback, everyone, it's been very helpful.

[altagar]

MadFloyd, will traps be adjusted at all in the current downtime? It would be wonderful to know whether to start collecting new data, or continuing building on the old data...

[kruggar]

then make it +3 each tier

I just don't like this 1/3 1/2 2/3 nonsense... why make such drastic differences in calculation

1/3 of 60 is 20 1/2 is 30 ... a ten ppoint diffence for 1 choice is a little too large and that's not top end


Aesop

Or simply add INT to the DC of the traps.. since the mechanics can add int to the dmg of repeaters now this will make the build more viable.

[altagar]

Release Notes:

Trapmaking
Prerequisites: Trapfinding and any one of the following: Skill Focus: Disable Device, Nimble Fingers, or Least Dragonmark of Making
Benefit: You have learned enough about traps to be able to scavenge parts from them, and with the help of the Free Agents, can craft your own.
Special: Automatically granted to rogues at level 4.
If you successfully disable a control panel, if you possess the Trapmaking feat, you have a chance of receiving scavenged trap components. Higher base CR dungeons have higher chances of dropping scavenged components, and the Mechanic enhancement grants a further increased chance of getting components.
Characters gain scavenged parts based on the damage type of the trap, and will get a random amount of components (the maximum number you can receive from a trap is modified by the trap CR and your number of levels in trapfinding classes [that’s Rogue levels currently]).
Placed Trap DC's are based on your Disable Device skill (1/3, 1/2, or 2/3 based on No Mechanic, Mechanic I, or Mechanic II). Thrown grenades currently have static DC's that increase as the objects are made better.
A device workstation exists near the Free Agents vendor, and they have guides available at a small cost in their shop.


Commentary: Since parts scavenged is based on levels in trapfinding classes, there is almost no point in taking this as a feat. You have to have the levels to get the components. What's the point of giving prereqs if you aren't going to have any meaningful components?

Developers have listed and DCs is based on Specialization level. However, I still think mechanic is tremendously weak compared to assassin. Grinding parts is just too much of a chore. With 12th level rogue (mechanic 2) hitting 9 boxes in Bounty Hunter, I am averaging about 24 parts per run spread across Mechanical, Cold, Force, Poison, and Acid.

[Coldin]

Release Notes:

Trapmaking
Prerequisites: Trapfinding and any one of the following: Skill Focus: Disable Device, Nimble Fingers, or Least Dragonmark of Making
Benefit: You have learned enough about traps to be able to scavenge parts from them, and with the help of the Free Agents, can craft your own.
Special: Automatically granted to rogues at level 4.
If you successfully disable a control panel, if you possess the Trapmaking feat, you have a chance of receiving scavenged trap components. Higher base CR dungeons have higher chances of dropping scavenged components, and the Mechanic enhancement grants a further increased chance of getting components.
Characters gain scavenged parts based on the damage type of the trap, and will get a random amount of components (the maximum number you can receive from a trap is modified by the trap CR and your number of levels in trapfinding classes [that’s Rogue levels currently]).
Placed Trap DC's are based on your Disable Device skill (1/3, 1/2, or 2/3 based on No Mechanic, Mechanic I, or Mechanic II). Thrown grenades currently have static DC's that increase as the objects are made better.
A device workstation exists near the Free Agents vendor, and they have guides available at a small cost in their shop.


Commentary: Since parts scavenged is based on levels in trapfinding classes, there is almost no point in taking this as a feat. You have to have the levels to get the components. What's the point of giving prereqs if you aren't going to have any meaningful components?

Developers have listed and DCs is based on Specialization level. However, I still think mechanic is tremendously weak compared to assassin. Grinding parts is just too much of a chore. With 12th level rogue (mechanic 2) hitting 9 boxes in Bounty Hunter, I am averaging about 24 parts per run spread across Mechanical, Cold, Force, Poison, and Acid.

Bounty Hunter doesn't have very high CR traps though...at least that I'm aware of.

Over in Church and the Cult, there's about 5 fire traps there. On elite, with a level 20 mechanic II rogue, I'm typically pulling upwards of 30 fire trap parts per run.

[MadFloyd]

MadFloyd, will traps be adjusted at all in the current downtime? It would be wonderful to know whether to start collecting new data, or continuing building on the old data...

We're looking at making some tweaks, but whether we get these into the release of Update 5 or a subsequent patch remains to be seen. I'll post again when I know for sure.

[altagar]

Bounty Hunter doesn't have very high CR traps though...at least that I'm aware of.

Over in Church and the Cult, there's about 5 fire traps there. On elite, with a level 20 mechanic II rogue, I'm typically pulling upwards of 30 fire trap parts per run.

Not sure how much difficulty matters. First run on normal was 22 in the five traps.

[thebrute7]

We're looking at making some tweaks, but whether we get these into the release of Update 5 or a subsequent patch remains to be seen. I'll post again when I know for sure.

Thanks MadFloyd.

[altagar]

We're looking at making some tweaks, but whether we get these into the release of Update 5 or a subsequent patch remains to be seen. I'll post again when I know for sure.

Thanks Madfloyd, appreciate the update and commitment to let us know. However, without further tweaking the game will presumably perform as it is on Lamannia now which means Poison Trap parts drop, but the Device will not accept them. (It gives a message you don't know what to do with the xx poison trap parts.)

.

[TheDjinnFor]

In my opinion, make materials and generic (i.e. lesser fire) soul gems purchasable, and increase the damage/utility of the traps; either that, or get going and add something worthwhile to try and get as a trap. The way things are, I don't see any reason for players to put all that effort into obtaining what is essentially scrolls with higher DCs.

[Eladrin]

Based on your feedback, we've made the following changes:

• Increased the placed trap damage from 10d6 / 15d6 / 20d6 / 25d6 / 30d6 to 10d6 / 20d6 / 30d6 / 40d6 / 50d6.
  Increased the area of effect of all placed traps, but higher grade placed damage traps have even larger areas of effect. (The third and fourth tiers are "large" traps, and the fifth is "huge".)
  
  
• Increased rogue grenade damage from 2d6 - 10d6 to 2d6 / 6d6 / 12d6 / 20d6 / 30d6.
  Increased the reflex saves associated with the grenades to 12 / 16 / 20 / 24 / 28.
  
  
• Poison traps now drop magical trap parts.

[Trillea]

Based on your feedback, we've made the following changes:

• Increased the placed trap damage from 10d6 / 15d6 / 20d6 / 25d6 / 30d6 to 10d6 / 20d6 / 30d6 / 40d6 / 50d6.
  Increased the area of effect of all placed traps, but higher grade placed damage traps have even larger areas of effect. (The third and fourth tiers are "large" traps, and the fifth is "huge".)
  
  
• Increased rogue grenade damage from 2d6 - 10d6 to 2d6 / 6d6 / 12d6 / 20d6 / 30d6.
  Increased the reflex saves associated with the grenades to 12 / 16 / 20 / 24 / 28.
  
  
• Poison traps now drop magical trap parts.

Oooooh! Me likey! Big boom!

Any chance for one of these?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i20zvZ-3MMw

[Coldin]

Based on your feedback, we've made the following changes:

• Increased the placed trap damage from 10d6 / 15d6 / 20d6 / 25d6 / 30d6 to 10d6 / 20d6 / 30d6 / 40d6 / 50d6.
  Increased the area of effect of all placed traps, but higher grade placed damage traps have even larger areas of effect. (The third and fourth tiers are "large" traps, and the fifth is "huge".)
• Increased rogue grenade damage from 2d6 - 10d6 to 2d6 / 6d6 / 12d6 / 20d6 / 30d6.
  Increased the reflex saves associated with the grenades to 12 / 16 / 20 / 24 / 28.
• Poison traps now drop magical trap parts.

Oooo...I am liking those changes. I still want to do some direct testing with them of course.

I especially like the area of effect increasing with the trap quality. The damage seems to scale up much nicer too, and is no longer a linear curve with grenades. It's still a linear progression with mines, but I'll overlook that for the time being since the deadly traps damage has been increased by double and has a "huge" area of effect.

I wonder how large a "huge" area of effect is?

Edit: Oh, and good change on the poison traps dropping magical trap parts. I wouldn't have minded seeing some poison traps, but this change should let low level rogues pick up magical trap parts easier. Still a problem with the DC's of magic traps being pointless at higher levels though...