Feedback: Make Some Traps!

[Coldin]

Yes. You can put a trap into the path of a monster and you won't be detected (assuming you wouldn't just be detected normally). You can also have that trap blow up on them, and they won't be any the wiser. They might do a search check, but that's about it.

One clever thing I discovered is that you can combine a noise maker and a mine. First you place the mine down, then the noisemaker, and back away. The noisemaker will go off, luring the monster to the trap. It's really great for those monsters that don't have patrol patterns and just stay still.

I tried to lay out a trail of noisemakers, but that has turned out to be ineffective if not impossible. The noisemakers don't last long enough, and the cooldown is too long on mines to be able to set up another one in time to continually grab attention. Maybe this is different for some monsters, but the kobolds I was testing on like to return to their home positions quickly after investigating a noise.

[SolarDawning]

Coldin, thanks for your work on testing all of this.
Traps sound as if, although they may not bring much to a fast-paced party situation, they will open up entire new dimensions for the stealthy solo rogue and rogue splash.

Being able to place traps while remaining undetected, and to lure enemies with noisemakers both can offer the clever sneak a wealth of opportunities, and by preparing the battlefield, could make otherwise difficult bosses much easier to deal with.

[Coldin]

Finally found some magical trap parts. Got 11 from the Disjunction Trap out in the Inspired Quarter.

I do hope that there's some low level places I forgot that will have these magical trap parts, otherwise I can't see rogues ever using them.

[Coldin]

Just made some grease traps. They're amusing definitely. Basically looks like they just cast the grease spell from a scroll, so the DC is very low. Kobolds will falling often enough, but only got one of the guards from HIPS Elite to fall.

I'm going to try some Web traps next, and see how well those do.

[Coldin]

Just made some glitterdust traps. Worked well enough kobolds in WW. Not so well on trogs in the Vale. On the bright side, once you do find magical parts, these seem to be some of the easier traps to put together.

I'm going to steal one of A_D's suggestions, and suggest that these spell trap DCs be tied to the UMD skill of a rogue. It could be the same system as the mines too, where the Mechanic PRE makes a smaller division of the skill for DC checks. So a basic rogue is UMD * 1/3, Mechanic I is UMD * 1/2, and Mechanic II is UMD * 2/3.

I'm really enjoying the use of noisemakers though. It's really fun to set up a few traps, then put down a noisemaker and back away to lure the unwary monster. I just really wish the noise they made last longer!

[joneb1999]

So far it seems this new skill is just a novelty with limited use. For parties especially where usually there is a drive to keep moving relatively fast damage is small unless a massive amount of traps are available to stack and that takes time they don't want to make and they wont want to waste time on magical traps with weak DCs.

For solo and small party sizes being more careful the sound traps may be pretty helpful. However most importantly the question seems to me to be is the effort in getting what seems such a large amount of necessary components worthwhile for such minimal payback? I have a rogue on hiatus in Ghallanda waiting to see if its going be worthwhile going down the trap making route when the update goes live and I'm sure its the same for many players. I hope the devs listen and react well to the feedback.

Seriously devs, if you are reading, you have to consider have you put wasted effort into a brand new area of skill IF hardly anyone goes on to use it. Remember there are already wards and symbols with similar effects that only require the effort of expending sp and some cheap ingredients that are hardly ever used. Mature players seriously want just a fair reward for something that requires so much effort and are not asking for nuclear bombs in their inventory.

[Coldin]

So far it seems this new skill is just a novelty with limited use. For parties especially where usually there is a drive to keep moving relatively fast damage is small unless a massive amount of traps are available to stack and that takes time they don't want to make and they wont want to waste time on magical traps with weak DCs.

For solo and small party sizes being more careful the sound traps may be pretty helpful. However most importantly the question seems to me to be is the effort in getting what seems such a large amount of necessary components worthwhile for such minimal payback? I have a rogue on hiatus in Ghallanda waiting to see if its going be worthwhile going down the trap making route when the update goes live and I'm sure its the same for many players. I hope the devs listen and react well to the feedback.

Seriously devs, if you are reading, you have to consider have you put wasted effort into a brand new area of skill IF hardly anyone goes on to use it. Remember there are already wards and symbols with similar effects that only require the effort of expending sp and some cheap ingredients that are hardly ever used. Mature players seriously want just a fair reward for something that requires so much effort and are not asking for nuclear bombs in their inventory.

Good points. A good rogue with UMD can easily access various scrolls and wands to deal a good amount of damage.

The benefits I see for mines right now is that they will generally have much higher DCs if set by a Mechanic rogue, and they will deal slightly more damage than say using a fireball wand.

A few more impressions.

The range on mines seems to be very short. I'll lure one monster onto the mine and they'll get damaged, but another monster only standing a few inches further away will escape unharmed. (No save or anything).

It is clearly an area of effect going off, because I can gather a large group of monsters, set up a trap, and all the ones that were within attack range will be hit.

I think the range needs to be extended a bit. I should be able to set down one or two traps across a hallway and hit a few monsters that charge down it as long as they are reasonably close to each other. I would actually rather encourage players to only set down one or two traps in one location, rather than stacking them up infinitely. But to do that there would either have to be a much lengthier cooldown, or setting additional traps would have to deactivate old ones.

Still not seeing much point to grenades. They look cool carrying around, but the damage they deal is minuscule. They really need to deal more damage to be useful. Maybe these could actually be set to a cooldown or something? You can only throw one so often, but when you do, it's a really really big explosion.

Just some passing thoughts as I play around with the traps.

[Ode1st]

I haven't played with traps yet, but I've been reading everything you guys are posting because my main is a mechanic rogue, and trapmaking sounds really fun in theme (I would've preferred a pickpocket kind of ability, but whatreyagonnado).

Anyway, if grenades are fairly useless due to low damage, maybe they can change the grenades to debuffers, rather than damage dealers. Grease grenade, blind grenade, disorientation grenade, freeze grenade, web grenade, cloudkill grenade, etc. Could even have a fire grenade to throw on the grease splotch left from the grease grenade to set the area on fire.

[Mister_Peace]

if grenades are fairly useless due to low damage, maybe they can change the grenades to debuffers, rather than damage dealers. Grease grenade, blind grenade, disorientation grenade, freeze grenade, web grenade, cloudkill grenade, etc. Could even have a fire grenade to throw on the grease splotch left from the grease grenade to set the area on fire.

+1
Tanglefoot bags.

[Devonian]

I haven't played with traps yet, but I've been reading everything you guys are posting because my main is a mechanic rogue, and trapmaking sounds really fun in theme (I would've preferred a pickpocket kind of ability, but whatreyagonnado).

Anyway, if grenades are fairly useless due to low damage, maybe they can change the grenades to debuffers, rather than damage dealers. Grease grenade, blind grenade, disorientation grenade, freeze grenade, web grenade, cloudkill grenade, etc. Could even have a fire grenade to throw on the grease splotch left from the grease grenade to set the area on fire.

You know playing up the synergy that they have in Grease + Fire could be a nice motif. Web + Lightning stuns by turning it into a taser web. Using noise-maker to lure mobs onto traps. could really ad something. If they made them good enough a party will give you time and from all I hear they haven't.

[Coldin]

I tried to set up some combinations of traps...namely grease + fire. Unfortunately, it really didn't work out too well. I could usually set the grease on fire with an alchemist fire, though it's damage was basically non-existent.

[cardmj1]

Just made some glitterdust traps. Worked well enough kobolds in WW. Not so well on trogs in the Vale. On the bright side, once you do find magical parts, these seem to be some of the easier traps to put together.

I'm going to steal one of A_D's suggestions, and suggest that these spell trap DCs be tied to the UMD skill of a rogue. It could be the same system as the mines too, where the Mechanic PRE makes a smaller division of the skill for DC checks. So a basic rogue is UMD * 1/3, Mechanic I is UMD * 1/2, and Mechanic II is UMD * 2/3.

I'm really enjoying the use of noisemakers though. It's really fun to set up a few traps, then put down a noisemaker and back away to lure the unwary monster. I just really wish the noise they made last longer!

I am not keen on the UMD skill being used because if a rogue has a high umd, then they would just use the scroll. An enhancement line for trap damage would be more suitable. Like sneak attack training, an enhancement mine training, grenade training, and also have the Mech I and II increase damage output of the traps as well.

[Angelus_dead]

I am not keen on the UMD skill being used because if a rogue has a high umd, then they would just use the scroll.

1. Rogues do have high UMD. That's not a question.
2. Even though Rogues have high UMD, they will not use scrolls for things like Web and Glitterdust, as the low DC makes it a total waste of time.

Casting offensive spells from a scroll is almost always a waste of time (possible exception of things like Enervate and Exhaustion). Therefore the system to put level 1-3 offensive spells into traps is likely to also be a waste, unless it somehow gives a large DC bonus above what a scroll would have.

PS. DDO actually gives scroll spells a lower DC than allowed in the D&D rules. It should be 10+level*1.5, not 10+level.

[Aesop]

While I like the idea that Mechanic gives a sizable bonus... I'm not fond of the 1/3 1/2 2/3 thingy... seems to me that sets it counter to useful for any besides a Mechanic at all

I'd set it at 5+half Disable Device and have Mechanic in addition to its bonus to Disable Device to grant a +2 bonus to Trap DCs per tier.

So a Mechanic III (when it get there) with a 70 Disable Device would have their Trap DC = 46 (5 + 35 + 6)


is that too high at level 20?

23 ranks
+15 item
+4 enhancement
+6 Mech III
+6 Int Skill Item
+6 Int (14 base +2 tome +6 item)
+3 Ventillated Bracers
+3 Skill Focus
+2 Nimble Fingers
+2 Skill Mastery x2
_____
70

could get higher with a Bard buff, Head of Good Fortune, Skill Boost, MORE INT

something like a 79-85 or higher with the temp buffs

maybe drop the 5+

Aesop

[Bodic]

I have not been on to test the trap making skills yet, but if anything I would make a DC suggestion.
10+Rog lvls+Int mod+ 1/2 Skill Disable Device/new skill(non item)+ Mech boost w/PrE= for a cap rog that would generate around a +50 DC to save

Traps should be able to reap the instant death that a crit failure(Roll a 1) can on any Elite quest
Example Balde traps in lighting hall way Von5 Elite(lvl12) a save is what 38 or so. Otherwise even with Imp Evade your looking at 200ish points of Slash damage.

Allow an Assassin Rog to soul suck after a successfull Assassinate(lvl12) or Vorpal strike(lvl18).

I will be on to check this out shortly I just wanted to see everyone else's opinons thus far before checking it out myself

CAN WE fix the ROGS inability to Sneak in PVP, and place traps say in pvp that can't be seen without the proper ability.

[Aesop]

hmmm

maybe 10 + Skill ranks + Int mod + Mech Rank x2

so

10
+23 ranks
+6-12 Int Mod (1x + 6 item+2 tome + 3 Exceptional+1 Litany + whatever Pots do)
+6 Mech (when III is out)
_______
40-45 or so

does that sound more reasonable?

Aesop

[Winter_storm]

The new Trap making ability is now available! Please use this feedback thread to let us know about your trapsmithing experiences, such as:

• Were you able to understand how to make traps using the Trap Making feat?
  
  Tried but realized missing favor for the Free Agents, and didn't know where to look for the recipes.
  
• Did you understand how to obtain a guide to trap making in-game?
  
  Not yet, its the noob in me. Will read more to find out.
  
• Was it easy to locate the device work station?
  
  A little. Like the other said, I found it on the map first then found it without a hitch.
  
• Did you get a chance to try making some traps? If not, what difficulties did you have?
  
  Not yet was looking forward to experiment with it, but ran into the Favor problem and need to do research on where I can get the trap parts. I assume any dungeon with traps?
  
• If you did make some traps, tell us about your experiences trying make and utilize them!
  
  N/A, will edit if successful.
  

We are particularly interested in how intuitive the trap making ability is for you. If you have trouble figuring out how to make your traps and how to get help making traps, please be sure to tell us about this as well!

[goblean]

• Were you able to understand how to make traps using the Trap Making feat?
  Was originally missing free agent favor for a 6th lvl mech. A lot of flavor text in the description.
  
• Did you understand how to obtain a guide to trap making in-game?
  Stumbled across it after gaining favor, seems silly to be split into 3 sections that take up inventory and cost gold.
  
• Was it easy to locate the device work station?
  Stumbled across it before anything else.
  
• Did you get a chance to try making some traps? If not, what difficulties did you have?
  Nope, seen a lot of people saying how easy it is to get parts. As a lvl6 mechanic and farming for parts I get very few at this lvl. I found 0 in 2 runs of goldstone manor, and none in one run of the binder quest. Usually get a part from every 4th/5th trap, besides the ones I have run in Sharn so far.

[Wurmwood]

The first thing that came to mind is the Adamantine Defender enhancement + Fire pots = rogue firewall and pet gets aggro ( I hope )
Anyone to test?

[rimble]

hmmm

maybe 10 + Skill ranks + Int mod + Mech Rank x2

so

10
+23 ranks
+6-12 Int Mod (1x + 6 item+2 tome + 3 Exceptional+1 Litany + whatever Pots do)
+6 Mech (when III is out)
_______
40-45 or so

does that sound more reasonable?

I don't feel it is. I can't see anyone taking Mechanic (aside from flavor Repeater builds) for just +6 Trap DC...Assassin III would be a much better choice for pretty much any build. A significant Trap DC disparity is required to make the PrE attractive (if they are aiming to make this the 'Trap Setting' PrE, as it seems).