Feedback: Make Some Traps!

[Sker-lyn]

Well, I tried to respond in a very organized matter and all, but monster lag ate my message, so I'll try to simplify my work around traps.

I was testing they in my lvl 9 halfling rogue mechanic and so far I like the majority I saw about them.

The first two days I tried to take parts from Gwylan's Stand in Phiarlan but the quest was bugged (or I was very unlucky the first six runs I made) and I couldn't take any part at all. Yesterday I tried and take a lot of parts from that quest.

I discovered that if you're in sneak mode, the number of parts grow. I assume is WAI and I like it a lot. With two more runs I was able to make some grenades (force, ice and fire ones) and noise makers.

Was a pain in the neck the need of favor with Free Agents. Despite the lvl of my mechanic, I needed 20 more points in Free Agents' favor to being able to speak with the vendor, take the guides and all.

This is one of the things you must need to reconsider... Asking a rogue favor in a faction to be able to use one of his/her abilities is like asking a wizard favor with Phiarlan to cast lvl 3 and up spells.

If you want to maintain traps linked to Free Agents, make an unique npc for that matter and include his name in the feat description, like: Marcus, the trap monkey in Harbor could teach you more about traps. Or something like that... If I had no read the message board first, for the feat description I had never make a trap, not without spamming help in advice channel, of course.

And about the guides, they are beautifully roleplayed but thinking in newbie terms, they are verbose and imprecise. Let them like they are now but add a list of possible recipes in the bottom to simplify things.

Also the work station is perfectly located in its spot, beautifully added to the Harbor but also I found it by pure accident. A npc near it, maybe a rogue trying to make a trap, could make it easier to locate.

And speaking about the traps themselves... The noise maker has a very very small range of action. I don't mean I want to place it in the beginning of the quest and lurk mobs there from the bottom of the quest but how good could be a decoy to lurk monsters into a trap if you need to place it a meter or two near them?

Also de grenades has a very small range too... They are bugged, like every range weapon in Lamannia, and you need to be almost stepping into the mobs' hair to fire them. Also they only damage the mob you're targeting and so, so... If you give them more range, like fire ball range, even making so little damage, they could be use a lot.

I wasn't able to make damage mines or magical traps by now, but maybe in the next days I was able to test them and speak about them.

Well, that's almost all. If I think in anything more or I'm able to test the other mines, I'll say some other suggestions.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

And any level of player can go talk to the twelve guy to get the free bag.

New players would never know that or know where to find such a guy early in their career. With ingredients now being used in more than The 12 they should start handing out the small ingr bag with the other two at he harbor docks instead of in The 12.

[Aesop]

I don't feel it is. I can't see anyone taking Mechanic (aside from flavor Repeater builds) for just +6 Trap DC...Assassin III would be a much better choice for pretty much any build. A significant Trap DC disparity is required to make the PrE attractive (if they are aiming to make this the 'Trap Setting' PrE, as it seems).

then make it +3 each tier

I just don't like this 1/3 1/2 2/3 nonsense... why make such drastic differences in calculation

1/3 of 60 is 20 1/2 is 30 ... a ten ppoint diffence for 1 choice is a little too large and that's not top end


Aesop

[redgod]

i just want to say that requireing soul stones for anything is a sure way to ensure nobody does it
the cost is to high and the bennifit to low

[redgod]

Is this guide an item? If it is an item tat goes in your inventory, please reconsider this, and include it in the feat or ability description. There is no reason it should require an inventory space.

the first access to the free agent vender gives access to 3 guides you can buy they explain trap making pretty well.

you then can throw em away or hold onto for referance. they fit in your bag if you want to hold on to them much like the ice recipie cards its not bad but they should be free its lame to charge for a item that teaches you how to use a feat you get for free it would be nice if these cards were say mailed to you as free agent reward when you unlocked the first favor tier.

it is two much info to list in the feat discription

[rimble]

then make it +3 each tier

I just don't like this 1/3 1/2 2/3 nonsense... why make such drastic differences in calculation

Because by going Mechanic they've foregone the option to dual-Radiance and auto-Vorpal any non-Epic trash mob and have passed up several Sneak Attack dice. That's a significant feature to give up. Mechanics should get something significant in return.

In my opinion there should be at least a full d20's worth of difference in Trap DCs between non-Mechanics and Mechanic III's...so, about 7 points per tier...

However, I like that they tied it into Disable Device in a non-limited fashion. For Trap DCs, higher is always better. You'll be rewarded for overly focusing in Disable Device, which is nice instead of the current situation where you just get it 'good enough' then stop. I prefer this over the set '+5 per tier' way.

The corollary problem, though, gets back to blanket immunities. Mechanics will have Trap DCs high enough to function in Epic, I think we'll see them enter into Epic strategies. However, the signature Assassin features don't function in Epic. There needs to be a secondary effect (in place of instant death) for InstaDeath-immune creatures.

[Lestarion]

• Were you able to understand how to make traps using the Trap Making feat?
  --With the manual it was quite easy to understand.
  
• Did you understand how to obtain a guide to trap making in-game?
  --How to get a manual wasn't a problem at all, but I needed a moment to realize that it's in the ingredients bag, was searching my inventory for it.
  
• Was it easy to locate the device work station?
  --I did search a bit, I'd suggest to add a dialog option to the free agents vendor, where you can ask him about the location. It blends in with the environment quite good and I run by a couple of times, befor I realized that it's the crafting device.
  
• Did you get a chance to try making some traps? If not, what difficulties did you have?
  --I first logged my wizard to make some soulgems. In lack of Lamannia Points I had only free to play quests and found only normal fire elemental gems so far. The part gathering trapparts was easier, especially since my rouge always was a mechanic.
  
• If you did make some traps, tell us about your experiences trying make and utilize them!
  --I made some avarage fire mines, which were quite funny to use (even though I only tested them on low level foes so far). But the amount of parts you need for building some traps seems quite high. I spend quite some time to gather materials for 5 traps, and those are gone very quick. I would suggest to lower the amount of needed parts and/or increase the number of created traps to make it worthwhile.

[Angelus_dead]

Because by going Mechanic they've foregone the option to dual-Radiance and auto-Vorpal any non-Epic trash mob and have passed up several Sneak Attack dice. That's a significant feature to give up. Mechanics should get something significant in return.

Sure, but trap DC is not something significant to give them. Traps do not fit well into the typical combat style of DDO, so it would be a mistake to try using powerful traps as a counterbalance against the abilities of assassin or acrobat.

Traps are a minor side feature that's fun to screw with but mostly a waste of time. Mechanics can have +3 DC from their DD bonus and another +3 just from being Mechanic, and that +6 is enough. Going up by another +40 is unjustified. Probably all player trap DC should be on the lines of 10+level+int, to be balanced with other offensive DCs.

[rimble]

Sure, but trap DC is not something significant to give them. Traps do not fit well into the typical combat style of DDO, so it would be a mistake to try using powerful traps as a counterbalance against the abilities of assassin or acrobat.

Traps are a minor side feature that's fun to screw with but mostly a waste of time. Mechanics can have +3 DC from their DD bonus and another +3 just from being Mechanic, and that +6 is enough. Going up by another +40 is unjustified. Probably all player trap DC should be on the lines of 10+level+int, to be balanced with other offensive DCs.

Well, I guess that's what I'm trying to say, but I can't find the words. Giving them much higher Trap DCs is the least the devs can do, since it's such an inconvenient (gather parts, craft traps) and limited ability. Putting their DCs into 'never-fail' territory doesn't seem inappropriate to me.

However, if Mechanic III continues the trend and makes Trap DC = Disable Device DC...well, I guess 90+ Trap DCs would be amusingly pointless...ironically, it means they can invest less resources towards raising Disable Device...they keep building oxymorons like this into the PrEs...really bugs me...

If they are going to leave the gathering/crafting aspect of Traps, I don't think breaking out of the standard 10 + Level + Int mold is inappropriate. Traps aren't nearly as limitless and user friendly as other save-inducing things.

[Coldin]

I think I've just about run out of things to test for the moment. I don't have any of the larger soul gems, so I can't make the last two tiers of traps. I assume those follow the same damage progression though.

Spell traps are a bit weak. With no way to increase the DC, I can't see much usefulness.

Grenades are a bit on the useless side too. Good enough for lower levels, but probably won't see much real use past the marketplace quests. I think theses need a damage increase more than anything.

Mines, as I've outlined above, just don't have a good exchange rate for parts. It's more expensive per damage die to make the higher end traps, so it's better to just make lots of smaller ones. They also have a very tiny explosion radius, much too small to be useful to catch any more than one monster in the blast in most situations. That has to be increased regardless of any changes.

All in all though, I really like the setup for making traps. Get parts by questing, use parts to make traps, use traps to quest more. I just think the overall usefulness has to increase, otherwise traps will only see limited use in game.

[Aesop]

Well, I guess that's what I'm trying to say, but I can't find the words. Giving them much higher Trap DCs is the least the devs can do, since it's such an inconvenient (gather parts, craft traps) and limited ability. Putting their DCs into 'never-fail' territory doesn't seem inappropriate to me.

However, if Mechanic III continues the trend and makes Trap DC = Disable Device DC...well, I guess 90+ Trap DCs would be amusingly pointless...ironically, it means they can invest less resources towards raising Disable Device...they keep building oxymorons like this into the PrEs...really bugs me...

If they are going to leave the gathering/crafting aspect of Traps, I don't think breaking out of the standard 10 + Level + Int mold is inappropriate. Traps aren't nearly as limitless and user friendly as other save-inducing things.

What if (and I ... think... that this is doable) the bonus was something like this


10 + DD Ranks +Int Mod +2x Mechanic Rank + Trap Bonus

the trap bonus could make more powerful traps have a higher bonus kinda like the Tool Bonus we get to using DD and Open Lock

and Mechanic can have another bonus attached to it

+10-15% Trap Damage per tier

That would keep Trap DCs out of the silly range with each tier of Mechanic granting 10+ bonus, but would still give them a bonus on DCs and on Damage

Aesop

[thebrute7]

So far I like the new trapmaking stuff. However the need for soulstones is unreasonable and prohibitive, espescially to new players. They aren't overly useful in regular play but roleplayers such as myself will have a ton of fun with this.

[Aashrym]

I caution against increasing the trap DC's using formulas that increase the DC beyond similar spell DC's.

[Raelys]

I caution against increasing the trap DC's using formulas that increase the DC beyond similar spell DC's.

While I understand the concern (traps don't cost sp, and we don't want to put arcanes out of a job), I don't agree.

Traps in general are harder to use than an arcane casting a spell. They're slow to place (can't be quickened), can be interrupted (again, can't be quickened), and require a mob to actually trigger it (aside noisemakers, but those don't count). I'm assuming damage traps aren't affected by metamagic or potency (though that would make for some interesting wizard/rogue builds). Spell traps are limited to level 1-3 spells. The only thing they have going for them is that you can place them while stealthed and that it doesn't break stealth. For sustainability, well traps require both buyable and a fair amount of unbuyable materials to craft. An arcane with sp pots will beat a rogue with traps hands down. With traps, you're also less likely to spam them in hopes that you roll high enough to land, more often you place one and pray it lands.

While I'm not suggesting rogues should easily be able to get trap DCs higher than spell DCs, I don't actually think it's a bad thing to allow it with the right investments. I think traps are situational at best if you can get them higher than spell DCs and completely useless if you can't at least get comparable DCs.

For a parallel example, a bard (even my str based warchanter) can easily get facinate DCs higher than arcane crowd control, but how often do you see a bard actually called on to facinate things outside of Epic?

[Angelus_dead]

While I understand the concern (traps don't cost sp, and we don't want to put arcanes out of a job)

It's not that it would be overpowered: it's that it's pointless and uninteresting as a way to increase trap power. Most mobs will fail a DC 30 trap just as often as they fail DC 90.

For a parallel example, a bard (even my str based warchanter) can easily get facinate DCs higher than arcane crowd control, but how often do you see a bard actually called on to facinate things outside of Epic?

Yes, it isn't very useful. Therefor it also isn't helpful to give Mechanic traps those kinds of DCs either.

[Bodic]

Ok I put my 2cents in on the DC's in a previous post.

A DC needs to reflect Rog Levels compare to an arcanes DC's. Not be a 20 assassin/acrobat, and have the same DC's as a 18 Wiz/2 Rog or any splash rog for that matter. Which may move into a 4lvl splash for the feat soem alread do 3 lvls for 2d6 SA. PrE Mech needs some love, and so does Acrobat.

Subset types into PrE's to reflect that groups needs.

Rog- general types lower end stuff.
Assassin- a Virulant posion would be nice. Affective Stat Debuffer's silence, Mind fog, Touch of idiocy, Stat damagers
Mech- Massive DC and DPS.
Acrobat- Smoke screens basically crowd

Give it a Enhancement or its own Skill

Give us Crafting.

Note TR Assassin Rog and I always enjoy the Love, and we did get some thing Good +7d6 SA Dice and +1 to our DC on Assassinate. Loving the new Cap stone.

[Valindria]

Maybe this would be OP but the talk about grenades being weak:

What if a rogue Mechanic could attach grenades to cross bow bolts? Similar to AA mixed with a grenade as a "spell component".

I see it basically as exploding bolts. Maybe it would be hard to implement and balance. Maybe tie it to the repair skill.

Another idea, what if instead of a defender, you could create something that could throw grenades. I.E. create a stationary catapult that fires grenades. Or create a WF Thower who follows you around throwing grenades. These could tie into the repair skill and benefit from the new summoning feat. Edit: They could use the hireling bar (follow, wait, defend, attack, etc).

[joneb1999]

Traps sounded a great idea until it was implemented as it is in Lamannia. Got my hopes up then dashed them. My rogue has been on the shelf for a long time and it seems with the recent combat gimp and a poor excuse for a new area of expertise he will stay there.

[QuantumFX]

it would make sense if players were provided with the bags earlier,

Like, say, from the welcome wagon lady in the harbor who gives you a Gem and Collectible bag?

[Angelus_dead]

My suggestion to improve the verisimilitude, efficacy, and endurance of the grenades produced by trapmaking.

1. Moderately increase the blast radius.
2. Create a second damage zone with the original radius that has greatly increased damage.
3. Change grenades from a weapon you equip to acting like a potion. A character who throws a grenade would be immediately back to his previous weapons.
4. Give grenades a lengthy cooldown, such as 15 seconds.
5. The character throwing the grenade is not immune to damage from it.

With these changes you'll get more total damage from a stack of grenades, but not be able to spam through the stack as quickly. The incongruous image of a rogue somehow hurling a stream of more grenades than he could possibly carry is avoided. Instead it works as something you do for an occasional burst of damage, but not a mode that takes you away from your regular combat role.

PS. The New York Times just reported that "verisimilitude" is on this year's top-50 list of words their readers didn't understand.