New Dice notation. Do not like.

[Missing_Minds]

- I will be happy to engage the forum to share ideas and seek feedback on future tooltip improvements (at least while it remains civil and productive), including ways to retain the D&D flavor, give more accurate feedback (e.g. taking into account averages etc) and educate players.

I look forward to seeing your posts on how you are going to suggest that this change is going to look.
I also fully expect full blown explanation to look different than a mouse over explanation on a hotbar.

Oh yeah, and if you honestly didn't realize that 1d6 was actually 1d3+3 I suggest you beat Eladrin a few times with squeeky hammer for good measure for not properly educating you.

[Eladiun]

I know many suggestions have been made (many of which are very close to what we already had in mind, which I'll take as a good sign) and they are helpful; thanks for these.

Thank You for addressing this openly.

[Borror0]

I is telling Cuppy!!!!

I have beaten her post count. I'm now coming after her meme!

By the way, has everyone noticed that this forum has a strange obsession with food? Cupcakes, tasty ham, guacamole, bacon and broccoli.

[Mockduck]

I think ultimately the best solution is to teach new players about D&D's dice system rather than shift the game away from the D&D mechanic. How best to do that I'll leave up to the Turbine folks who are better at finding solutions than me. Problem with changing the dice notation is that it creates a paradigm shift where the rest of the game needs to be translated to fit the new notation, rather than explain the mechanic and keep the game dice-based. IMO.

[iamsamoth0]

+1 Mr. Floyd.
I am not at all against making the game more approachable for new players. And some sort of compromise can hopefully be found.
I previously mentioned, for me again, that I mainly objected to creating more text for the dialog windows.
After seeing the various ramifications of the die, etc... some consideration in improving the accuracy of the info therein may be justified. I also hope we can provide constructive criticism on the topic as well. Without a bunch of neg repping, thread deletions, etc.. I hope it won't degrade to that. I'd hate to see players getting themselves banned or squelched for supporting their perspective points of view.
I would have to admit I have yet to progress far enough in the game for the arithmetic to matter down to the singular points. The revelation of the augmented dice is substantive to be sure, and these issues should be disclosed. Annotated on the tips to retain uniformity, and consistency.

And +1 Mr.B for the olive branch

[thebrute7]

=
So, in summary:

- We understand that you feel the D&D dice formulae are part of the flavor of the game and very important to you.

- The die formula is important to understanding the average outcome.

- We acknowledge that the formula for spells wasn't accurate and should be.

- Not commenting on the specific alternative implementation ideas of either educating players or displaying tooltip data differently does not mean we are ignoring the ideas.

- Much of the feedback we get is directly from players and not limited to these forums.

- The tooltip situation cannot be changed for Update 5, but this doesn't mean that it won't get changed for a future update.

- I will be happy to engage the forum to share ideas and seek feedback on future tooltip improvements (at least while it remains civil and productive), including ways to retain the D&D flavor, give more accurate feedback (e.g. taking into account averages etc) and educate players.

- I'm not expecting this post to distill anyone's disapointment and it's not my intention to offer any false hope or try to win anyone over.

Thanks, I really appreciate this, I am a newer player to DDO and I did come because it was DUNGEONS and DRAGONS Online, I was really disillusioned when I saw that the dice notation was being changed since it just completely loses the feel of D&D. I learned the D20 system from NWN not PnP and I had to figure it out on my own, a tutorial for new players would be the best option IMO. Thanks for not ignoring the reaction to this change. I consider this more pivotal to my playing than the TWF nerf, and I am sure other players feel like I do.

[Sylvurdragon]

While I agree with the first part of your second paragraph and appreciate your post in general, what is coming through loud and clear in this thread is that to most of the players on this forum, the flavor of D&D is not just the world, lore, monsters, items and character build, but the dice mechanic itself. Having the literal turn-based mechanic translated into a real-time environment and preserving the dice mechanic is vital, and transparency with those mechanics very near and dear to their hearts.

As for the transparency issue (1d6 vs 1d3+3); this was news to me and I'm dismayed to learn of it. I totally agree that the game should be transparent and look forward to this being changed (I would want this even if we didn't show the actual damage range of a spell).

We are working on improvements to weapon and spell tooltips for a future update and it's unfortunate that a portion of this work found its way into Update 5. Admittedly, while I would have expected this type of reaction if the D&D dice were not included (at all) in the tooltips, I consider myself duly enlightened with the reaction we're witnessing even with them in.

I know many suggestions have been made (many of which are very close to what we already had in mind, which I'll take as a good sign) and they are helpful; thanks for these.

The only other comment I would like to make is that these forums are not our only source for feedback. Many of you posted that you don't see any threads about players not understanding the game etc. This is true. For the most part, the participation on these boards are from very experienced players.

So, in summary:

- We understand that you feel the D&D dice formulae are part of the flavor of the game and very important to you.

- The die formula is important to understanding the average outcome.

- We acknowledge that the formula for spells wasn't accurate and should be.

- Not commenting on the specific alternative implementation ideas of either educating players or displaying tooltip data differently does not mean we are ignoring the ideas.

- Much of the feedback we get is directly from players and not limited to these forums.

- The tooltip situation cannot be changed for Update 5, but this doesn't mean that it won't get changed for a future update.

- I will be happy to engage the forum to share ideas and seek feedback on future tooltip improvements (at least while it remains civil and productive), including ways to retain the D&D flavor, give more accurate feedback (e.g. taking into account averages etc) and educate players.

- I'm not expecting this post to distill anyone's disapointment and it's not my intention to offer any false hope or try to win anyone over.

Thank you for responding so we at least know that our comments have not fallen on deaf ears...I also appreciate that changes will be made in a future update. I just hope that this is sooner rather than later. Lets please keep the flavor of D&D in DDO...Thats the main reason why I (and many others that share this sentiment) am here.

[SisAmethyst]

...Having the literal turn-based mechanic translated into a real-time environment and preserving the dice mechanic is vital, and transparency with those mechanics very near and dear to their hearts.

As for the transparency issue (1d6 vs 1d3+3); this was news to me and I'm dismayed to learn of it. I totally agree that the game should be transparent and look forward to this being changed (I would want this even if we didn't show the actual damage range of a spell)...

So, in summary:

- We understand that you feel the D&D dice formulae are part of the flavor of the game and very important to you.

- The die formula is important to understanding the average outcome.

- We acknowledge that the formula for spells wasn't accurate and should be.

...

- I will be happy to engage the forum to share ideas and seek feedback on future tooltip improvements (at least while it remains civil and productive), including ways to retain the D&D flavor, give more accurate feedback (e.g. taking into account averages etc) and educate players.

- I'm not expecting this post to distill anyone's disapointment and it's not my intention to offer any false hope or try to win anyone over.

Uhhh seems MadFloyd rolled a critical hit in diplomacy Thanks for this good feedback, it is well appreciated.

For the description transparency I would vote for Borror0 to send you his infos as he probably already has a severl pages long list which description could be improved and should be updated. I bet this list is even sorted

[Zenako]

I look forward to seeing your posts on how you are going to suggest that this change is going to look.
I also fully expect full blown explanation to look different than a mouse over explanation on a hotbar.

Oh yeah, and if you honestly didn't realize that 1d6 was actually 1d3+3 I suggest you beat Eladrin a few times with squeeky hammer for good measure for not properly educating you.

Me thinks you need to open some more lines of communication in the bullpens of Turbine dudes. This is the second time in a few threads where one member of the Turbine Team was not aware of how another member of the team had set things to work. And this was not for minor flavor things, but fairly substantial things. Consider it a learning moment or a lessons learned outcome.

I also appove the squeaky hammer approach, preferably in a public place, with bacon, quacamole and chips.

[kruggar]

Why not implemetn a Spell Book Interface whre u can give more detailed information about the spells and keep the tooltip as simple as possible?

U can use a Interface similar to the quest Interface using Areas as Levels, Quest Names as Spell Names and the quest info as the Spell Information.

U can develop other ways to give the information to the players and forget about a super detailed tooltip about spells.

[Drfirewater79]

While I agree with the first part of your second paragraph and appreciate your post in general, what is coming through loud and clear in this thread is that to most of the players on this forum, the flavor of D&D is not just the world, lore, monsters, items and character build, but the dice mechanic itself. Having the literal turn-based mechanic translated into a real-time environment and preserving the dice mechanic is vital, and transparency with those mechanics very near and dear to their hearts.

As for the transparency issue (1d6 vs 1d3+3); this was news to me and I'm dismayed to learn of it. I totally agree that the game should be transparent and look forward to this being changed (I would want this even if we didn't show the actual damage range of a spell).

We are working on improvements to weapon and spell tooltips for a future update and it's unfortunate that a portion of this work found its way into Update 5. Admittedly, while I would have expected this type of reaction if the D&D dice were not included (at all) in the tooltips, I consider myself duly enlightened with the reaction we're witnessing even with them in.

I know many suggestions have been made (many of which are very close to what we already had in mind, which I'll take as a good sign) and they are helpful; thanks for these.

The only other comment I would like to make is that these forums are not our only source for feedback. Many of you posted that you don't see any threads about players not understanding the game etc. This is true. For the most part, the participation on these boards are from very experienced players.

So, in summary:

- We understand that you feel the D&D dice formulae are part of the flavor of the game and very important to you.

- The die formula is important to understanding the average outcome.

- We acknowledge that the formula for spells wasn't accurate and should be.

- Not commenting on the specific alternative implementation ideas of either educating players or displaying tooltip data differently does not mean we are ignoring the ideas.

- Much of the feedback we get is directly from players and not limited to these forums.

- The tooltip situation cannot be changed for Update 5, but this doesn't mean that it won't get changed for a future update.

- I will be happy to engage the forum to share ideas and seek feedback on future tooltip improvements (at least while it remains civil and productive), including ways to retain the D&D flavor, give more accurate feedback (e.g. taking into account averages etc) and educate players.

- I'm not expecting this post to distill anyone's disapointment and it's not my intention to offer any false hope or try to win anyone over.

now had you said it like that 20 pages ago you would have saved me two infraction points ........

[Sharzade]

I didn't come to DDO from a Dnd background, so in the adaptation of Dnd to online game, I personally don't think it matters whether or not potential rolls are described as 1 to 6 or as 1d6. No matter how it's written, the actual effect (number "rolled") will be the same. And no matter what, a gemstone or plastic dice with 6 sides represents a chance to roll the numbers 1 thru' 6.

People coming to DDO from a non Pnp background already have quite a steep learning curve re making characters, so I can understand why there's an attempt to simplify some of the terminology.

A Dice/No Dice setting in in Gameplay Options might be a solution for everyone. That way, Pnp traditionalists can go for dice in the Gameplay Settings, and more general fantasy MMO fans can decide if they'd like to keep the 1 to 6 default.

Giving players a choice seems like a good middle road.

Sharz

[Sylvurdragon]

As for the transparency issue (1d6 vs 1d3+3); this was news to me and I'm dismayed to learn of it.

Just an FYI:

1d3+3 is more like 1+3 through 3+3 which is essentially 4-6 damage.

There are little things like this that make the changes inaccurate. I appreciate you working on making changes to this system, and it saddens me that parts of the change are going to make it to live before the ultimate goal was established.

If this came out with an option to go one way or the other from the start, we wouldn't have 10 pages of flames on one thread and 28 pages of "educated responses" on this one...it would have been an open and shut case.

[Magusrex777]

Admittedly, while I would have expected this type of reaction if the D&D dice were not included (at all) in the tooltips, I consider myself duly enlightened with the reaction we're witnessing even with them in.

You have a very nice way with words. I agree, if you would have removed the d6 terminology or the mechanic entirely I think I might have gotten upset too. I am glad you came back and gave them a bone. It must very hard from a design perspective to have to be so careful with changes or additions when some of your player-base is so protective of what their own personal ideas of what the D&D flavor is. I imagine some cool ideas have had to be scrapped because they were not D&D enough. I can consider myself as big a fan of D&D as anyone and the tooltip means so very little to me.

The DM narrations, I love em that is flavor that is important to me. The cool and diabolical traps, the secret doors, that is my flavor. The combat you have created is so much more free flowing and exciting than a PnP combat.

"I am using the build from the fighter Hnbk and it says I get +1 when using slashing weapons against non-evil chaotic opponents and the Unearthed Arcana says I get another +1 for specialization that overrules what is said in DM guide on page 234. so my THAC0 is actually -2" "Hold on there cowboy you rolled a 1 and I say you missed, stall my combat with nonsense again and you will need to start role-playing a female gnome."

I like the difference from PnP in DDO already and I think you got the flavor just right. If the game were exactly like PnP it would difficult to play as a MMO. That said, giving them some hope that you might do something else with the tooltip is a nice gesture.

[ahpook]

Thanks for the info madFloyd. I hope we can restore the ndX (eg 1d6 per level max 5d6) nomenclature for the description and provide the extra information about what that means for the player (eg: 4-27 dmg [ (3- 18) * 50% (empower activated)] as a pop up to help do the math for the user.

After just levelling my wizard on Lam, I also wanted to add that it seems like dmg dice is a minor problem in helping people understand. For example when picking 2 seventh level spells, non of the spell descriptions included school. This seems to be a bigger problem as the information isn't merely cryptic, it is missing. I would have started with complete and accurate information before looking at ways to write damage range differently.

[Falconen]

I like that they are listening and going to implement some change, but I thought that the reason people were allowed onto Lam early, was so that we could find issues BEFORE Update 5 was released, and change what wasn't working? Is it true that anything found will still go in and fixed after the fact?

Not upset, just confused as to why we are getting a system implemented that the Dev's agree isn't going in the correct direction they want. Maybe, it has something to do with priorities, as this Die Display change isn't really game breaking. I don't know. I am just glad they are looking at alternatives, or at least making it optional to change the display.

[Borror0]

I thought that the reason people were allowed onto Lam early, was so that we could find issues BEFORE Update 5 was released, and change what wasn't working? Is it true that anything found will still go in and fixed after the fact?

It depends on how important the issue is and how extensive the necessary changes are. The bigger the change the less likely we are to see it fixed before U5; the more important the issue, the more likely we are to see it changed. In this case, this problem has everything against it: it's not a major issue and it requires tempering with a lot of stuff.

[Arkat]

<snip>

If only the rest of the DDO staff there at Turbine were as forthright as you.

Thanks.

+1 btw

[Eladiun]

If only the rest of the DDO staff there at Turbine were as forthright as you.

Thanks.

+1 btw

Shhhh... don't draw attention to that or they'll gag him..

[Ethias]

...

Well. I'm not happy, but I won't keep harping about this. I appreciate you guys are listening, I just wish that this change especially could have been run by a larger portion of the playerbase before it reached a point of no return.

I will see how it plays out on live... if it ends up looking like it did last time I saw it, I will probably post about not liking it on live, either. heh.

Good luck with fixing stuff up, and I am glad you guys are getting that to some of us, the dice mechanic is an important part of the feel of DDO.