New Dice notation. Do not like.

[KoboldKiller]

Really it's problematic of today's generation.

There are too many Veruca Salts who want it all given to them.

I guess entertainment is no longer supposed to have a challenge or learning curve to it.

It should all be designed for the lowest common denominator.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

lol

i would give ya rep for making me laugh.

I got him. That got post of the day for me.

[Magusrex777]

Magusrex777,

A lot of people (new players and Turbine Staff alike), are forgetting one important factor:

New Players came to DDO to play DDO. Why should Turbine or any creator of any game change the very nature, feel and flavor of their game for new players?

And before you answer with something along the lines of: Money or Profit, if that was the only goal they had, why didn't they make it that way in the first place?

When talking of feel and flavor we can both have a different opinion and both be 100% correct. Your opinion is no better than mine and visa versa. Money and profit can never be taken out of the discussion. They want more players, as niche game DDO reached a plateau. They wanted more so they went F2P, now they want even more and they will try. If they get more people than they lose, they will happy. You or I might not be, but it is what is. The most leverage anyone has is to stop paying. If enough people stop and revenue decreases they will rethink things. If some players quit but they get more in return they will feel like they are doing the right thing.

[Steiner-Davion]

When talking of feel and flavor we can both have a different opinion and both be 100% correct. Your opinion is no better than mine and visa versa. Money and profit can never be taken out of the discussion. They want more players, as niche game DDO reached a plateau. They wanted more so they went F2P, now they want even more and they will try. If they get more people than they lose, they will happy. You or I might not be, but it is what is. The most leverage anyone has is to stop paying. If enough people stop and revenue decreases they will rethink things. If some players quit but they get more in return they will feel like they are doing the right thing.

I agree with you on this point alone.

BUT, when do you say to hell with the Creative vision of the game and it becomes all about the bottom line? I think we have long since crossed that threshold, and I think a lot of pople would agree with me on this.

[Zzevel]

So, just looking back through this thread... Do you realize how many that have posted here in complete opposition to this change have threads where they are flaming each other, getting banned, had threads closed, etc.?

Not only are you seeing loads of people say this is an awful change, you have people that don't agree on anything standing hand-in-hand and saying this is an awful change! That's probably 10X value right there.

EXACTLY +1

If you cant redact the change for mod 5 then maybe mod 5 isn't ready yet.

[Zippo]

Thanks for the Neg Rep Magusrex777.

There that should fix that.

[Tilliak]

We've had two devs respond (the first who can't do probability math and the second who actually did address the issue with what dice are being rolled). Yet nobody can answer the simple question of why something that is this hated and is on a test server can not be changed for U5. It is on a test server which is supposed to mean "it is not live yet, we're not done." So if you are unable to fix things that you have obviously broke on a test server, why the **** do you have a test server at all?

Maybe somebody should pop over to the WoTC site and casually aske them what they think of the changes, since Dungeons & Dragons is their property.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

We've had two devs respond (the first who can't do probability math and the second who actually did address the issue with what dice are being rolled). Yet nobody can answer the simple question of why something that is this hated and is on a test server can not be changed for U5. It is on a test server which is supposed to mean "it is not live yet, we're not done." So if you are unable to fix things that you have obviously broke on a test server, why the **** do you have a test server at all?

Maybe somebody should pop over to the WoTC site and casually aske them what they think of the changes, since Dungeons & Dragons is their property.

I'll help you with the "test server" part.

Turbine used to have a DDO test server called "Risia". A while back they closed that server and opened Lama in its place. When they did so they were very clear that it was a "Preview server" not a "test server". They viewed it as a place for a preview, and maybe a bit of refining based on feedback, but really not a place for substantive testing. By the time it goes up there, its pretty close to hitting Live.

Turbine has a private Alpha test site and a by invitatation only Beta site - that's where they do the testing.

It has to be an abomination on Lama before they back something out based on our testing there.

Good or bad..that's the party line.

[zorander6]

We've had two devs respond (the first who can't do probability math and the second who actually did address the issue with what dice are being rolled). Yet nobody can answer the simple question of why something that is this hated and is on a test server can not be changed for U5. It is on a test server which is supposed to mean "it is not live yet, we're not done." So if you are unable to fix things that you have obviously broke on a test server, why the **** do you have a test server at all?

Maybe somebody should pop over to the WoTC site and casually aske them what they think of the changes, since Dungeons & Dragons is their property.

Because the server is not a beta test server. Beta testing goes through QA. This test server is more of a preview server where they open it to the masses to allow them a chance to break it before it goes live. All of the major programming for the update is done and has been released by QA, they are just looking to use the people who are wanting to preview it as gunea pigs since end users will typically find new and creative ways to break the software. Much like Microsoft releasing software with known bugs and then having patch tuesday every month to fix known and discovered issues. If the damage done by the end users is not enough to cause problems then they go live with it, if something is missed (like the archery issue) then they fix it, but major re-writing of the code may not happen for several updates.

[Zippo]

I would have pos repped this but I gave ya some in another thread People just arent getting it. Even the devs arent, its not about excluding anyone, why cant people play and learn what dungeons and dragons is about? Why do we have to over simplify instead of trusting that new players will ask questions and get answers? Have really that many people quit citing dice notations? Have that many people quit over falling in vons 2, the trap in stk? or locked shrines in tear? Really how much more changes for the good of those who dont get it must be made before they do? And why does it have to affect even those who do know the game? Could we not have our hard and elites stay the same? Toggle so we who know what the die system means continue to enjoy the game the way we have for years? It just amazes me that their attitude is that not making things easy means were trying to exclude players instead of looking at it as a way to teach new players d&d. Ahh well I get your sentiment and when I can give ya an + I will be back to because I agree wholeheartedly.

Ok Kal, I know your trying to not let as much bother you anymore but you know as well as I do that a lot them have proven that they aren't going to ask the questions and that after just a few months some of them know everything DDO already. Different argument for a different day though. Mean while I agree though, we shouldn't have to go down to their level but rather make them raise theirs

[Sarezar]

Thanks for the feedback.

For what it's worth, it's not our intention to drain the D&D out of the game. We're proud that we're D&D, that our game is unique amongst the competition, etc.

We're really just trying to make the game more accessible. We had a bit of a snafu with the D&D dice thing in the sense that it was supposed to be an option. I don't believe in forcing anyone to play the way I might want to play, but rather provide a choice. We are not able to revert this change for Update 5.

Speaking of accessibility, this is vital for our business model. I appreciate that most of you don't understand why it's difficult to understand that d6 = 1-6 but we get plenty of feedback from those who don't - or are intimidated by the complexities of D&D. While you might think that they don't deserve to play the game, we respectfully disagree.

I myself look at a spell tooltip that says something to the effect of "2d6+1 per caster level (max n)" and think "This is a computer - why do I need to do the math in the middle of an action game? You know my caster level, just tell me the range. And if I'm running maximize, take that into account!" Sure, I want to have access to the formula too, but mostly I want to know the bottom line.

Anyway, I'm not trying to tell you how you should feel about this. Your opinions and reactions are yours; all I'm trying to say is that we aren't intentionally trying to remove D&D from the game - we're trying to remove any barriers that prevent non-D&D experienced folks from otherwise enjoying an awesome game.

Huge D&D fan here, huge supported for DDO to remain focused on D&D 3.5 but have no issues with the new descriptions. If they can do all the above you described automatically (calculate level dmg, take feats into account etc) I think that's awesome. Especially since you have also kept the D&D description formula.

[MadFloyd]

How does this really affect anyone? Please explain it to me. The people this bothers all seem to have a deep understanding of how the d20 system works and what these posted ranges actually mean. So it does nothing to you right? You log in, see the description get mad on principle and don’t want play?, some claim it makes them want to quit something they enjoy. It doesn’t make any sense.

So, this might affect the new player under the 10d6 description they might have zero idea what that means at all and in the 10-60 description they may be mislead to how it is calculated but will at least understand AND the range will be correct but the average would not be accurate, they can play just fine under that condition. If they don’t understand d6 at all…not so much. With that change you can play exactly how you played before, you should have just as much fun. It feels like people want to complain for the sake of complaining. Someone even suggested sometimes they wish the game had died rather than see what it has become. Why not quit and do something else then?

While I agree with the first part of your second paragraph and appreciate your post in general, what is coming through loud and clear in this thread is that to most of the players on this forum, the flavor of D&D is not just the world, lore, monsters, items and character build, but the dice mechanic itself. Having the literal turn-based mechanic translated into a real-time environment and preserving the dice mechanic is vital, and transparency with those mechanics very near and dear to their hearts.

As for the transparency issue (1d6 vs 1d3+3); this was news to me and I'm dismayed to learn of it. I totally agree that the game should be transparent and look forward to this being changed (I would want this even if we didn't show the actual damage range of a spell).

We are working on improvements to weapon and spell tooltips for a future update and it's unfortunate that a portion of this work found its way into Update 5. Admittedly, while I would have expected this type of reaction if the D&D dice were not included (at all) in the tooltips, I consider myself duly enlightened with the reaction we're witnessing even with them in.

I know many suggestions have been made (many of which are very close to what we already had in mind, which I'll take as a good sign) and they are helpful; thanks for these.

The only other comment I would like to make is that these forums are not our only source for feedback. Many of you posted that you don't see any threads about players not understanding the game etc. This is true. For the most part, the participation on these boards are from very experienced players.

So, in summary:

- We understand that you feel the D&D dice formulae are part of the flavor of the game and very important to you.

- The die formula is important to understanding the average outcome.

- We acknowledge that the formula for spells wasn't accurate and should be.

- Not commenting on the specific alternative implementation ideas of either educating players or displaying tooltip data differently does not mean we are ignoring the ideas.

- Much of the feedback we get is directly from players and not limited to these forums.

- The tooltip situation cannot be changed for Update 5, but this doesn't mean that it won't get changed for a future update.

- I will be happy to engage the forum to share ideas and seek feedback on future tooltip improvements (at least while it remains civil and productive), including ways to retain the D&D flavor, give more accurate feedback (e.g. taking into account averages etc) and educate players.

- I'm not expecting this post to distill anyone's disapointment and it's not my intention to offer any false hope or try to win anyone over.

[REALb0r3d]

Thanks for the feedback.

For what it's worth, it's not our intention to drain the D&D out of the game. We're proud that we're D&D, that our game is unique amongst the competition, etc.

We're really just trying to make the game more accessible. We had a bit of a snafu with the D&D dice thing in the sense that it was supposed to be an option. I don't believe in forcing anyone to play the way I might want to play, but rather provide a choice. We are not able to revert this change for Update 5.

Speaking of accessibility, this is vital for our business model. I appreciate that most of you don't understand why it's difficult to understand that d6 = 1-6 but we get plenty of feedback from those who don't - or are intimidated by the complexities of D&D. While you might think that they don't deserve to play the game, we respectfully disagree.

I myself look at a spell tooltip that says something to the effect of "2d6+1 per caster level (max n)" and think "This is a computer - why do I need to do the math in the middle of an action game? You know my caster level, just tell me the range. And if I'm running maximize, take that into account!" Sure, I want to have access to the formula too, but mostly I want to know the bottom line.

Anyway, I'm not trying to tell you how you should feel about this. Your opinions and reactions are yours; all I'm trying to say is that we aren't intentionally trying to remove D&D from the game - we're trying to remove any barriers that prevent non-D&D experienced folks from otherwise enjoying an awesome game.

You know how easy it is to explain this to newbies?

"Alright so when you swing your sword you do 1d6+1 damage."
"Whats that mean 1d..."
"Well 1 is the number of dice, d if you didn't get that means dice, and 6 is the number of sides on that die."
"Oh so 1d6 must mean 1 six sided die? And the +1 must mean add 1 to the dice then."
"Correct."
"So I can do 2 to 7 damage then?
"Correct."
"Thanks for teaching me this, I was reeeeeallly scared when I first started. Now I feel like I learned something."

[Borror0]

/snip

I complained that your last post missed the mark but this one is a great post.

Thanks for not letting yourself be scared away by negative feedback and continuing to engage us in conversation. It is appreciated.

[Tilliak]

Because the server is not a beta test server. Beta testing goes through QA. This test server is more of a preview server where they open it to the masses to allow them a chance to break it before it goes live. All of the major programming for the update is done and has been released by QA, they are just looking to use the people who are wanting to preview it as gunea pigs since end users will typically find new and creative ways to break the software. Much like Microsoft releasing software with known bugs and then having patch tuesday every month to fix known and discovered issues. If the damage done by the end users is not enough to cause problems then they go live with it, if something is missed (like the archery issue) then they fix it, but major re-writing of the code may not happen for several updates.

So, they want to use us as guinea pigs to test the software and break it. But then when we tell them that something is broken, they ignore our feedback and tell us we're stuck with it. Yeah...why don't they just close the damned server, since they don't give two ***** what we tell them?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I'm not expecting this post to distill anyone's disapointment and it's not my intention to offer any false hope or try to win anyone over.

It's nice to know we were heard, thank you.

I'm sure a long run solution can be found that keeps the D&D dice as the primary display with either number or words in ways you find easier for non D&D players also displayed as secondary but accessible information.

It's really nice to know you share the concern about the loaded dice not being made clear. As a D&D purest I'm all for a fireball being xd6 based as a starting point - but if statflation requires it to be buffed for useabliity, I'd much rather see that a DDO fireball is xd3+3 (or whatever).

I also get that turning things back for U5 isn't possible. I would hope however that a fix would be aimed at U5.x or U6, and not "some future time that may never come". It does however sound like you get that.

Thanks again for sticking your head into the fire with more info

[Steiner-Davion]

There that should fix that.

Thanks.

[Borror0]

You know what?

*hands over a cupcake to MadFloyd*

[Steiner-Davion]

While I agree with the first part of your second paragraph and appreciate your post in general, what is coming through loud and clear in this thread is that to most of the players on this forum, the flavor of D&D is not just the world, lore, monsters, items and character build, but the dice mechanic itself. Having the literal turn-based mechanic translated into a real-time environment and preserving the dice mechanic is vital, and transparency with those mechanics very near and dear to their hearts.

As for the transparency issue (1d6 vs 1d3+3); this was news to me and I'm dismayed to learn of it. I totally agree that the game should be transparent and look forward to this being changed (I would want this even if we didn't show the actual damage range of a spell).

We are working on improvements to weapon and spell tooltips for a future update and it's unfortunate that a portion of this work found its way into Update 5. Admittedly, while I would have expected this type of reaction if the D&D dice were not included (at all) in the tooltips, I consider myself duly enlightened with the reaction we're witnessing even with them in.

I know many suggestions have been made (many of which are very close to what we already had in mind, which I'll take as a good sign) and they are helpful; thanks for these.

The only other comment I would like to make is that these forums are not our only source for feedback. Many of you posted that you don't see any threads about players not understanding the game etc. This is true. For the most part, the participation on these boards are from very experienced players.

So, in summary:

- We understand that you feel the D&D dice formulae are part of the flavor of the game and very important to you.

- The die formula is important to understanding the average outcome.

- We acknowledge that the formula for spells wasn't accurate and should be.

- Not commenting on the specific alternative implementation ideas of either educating players or displaying tooltip data differently does not mean we are ignoring the ideas.

- Much of the feedback we get is directly from players and not limited to these forums.

- The tooltip situation cannot be changed for Update 5, but this doesn't mean that it won't get changed for a future update.

- I will be happy to engage the forum to share ideas and seek feedback on future tooltip improvements (at least while it remains civil and productive), including ways to retain the D&D flavor, give more accurate feedback (e.g. taking into account averages etc) and educate players.

- I'm not expecting this post to distill anyone's disapointment and it's not my intention to offer any false hope or try to win anyone over.

Thanks MadFloyd for popping in here, and letting us know that our pleass have not fallen on deaf ears.

While I'm saddened to hear that I will have to suffer under this change fora little while, I'm glad to hear that it will not be permanent. THat being said, I want to echo what someone else has jsut posted, and PRAY that this is something that can be fixed in U5.x hotfix/update, or no later than U6. Anything beyond that and we are pushing our forgiveness range

[dragonruler]

You know what?

*hands over a cupcake to MadFloyd*

I is telling Cuppy!!!!