New Dice notation. Do not like.

[Naash]

Thanks for taking some time to explain things.

We are working on improvements to weapon and spell tooltips for a future update and it's unfortunate that a portion of this work found its way into Update 5. Admittedly, while I would have expected this type of reaction if the D&D dice were not included (at all) in the tooltips, I consider myself duly enlightened with the reaction we're witnessing even with them in.

I'm a bit surprised that you guys were surprised by the reaction to this.This is Dungeons & Dragons Online first and foremost,had the text been reversed instead of the D&D dice being relegated to the bottom as a "fun fact" I guarantee the reaction would have been vastly different.

The only other comment I would like to make is that these forums are not our only source for feedback. Many of you posted that you don't see any threads about players not understanding the game etc. This is true. For the most part, the participation on these boards are from very experienced players.

- I will be happy to engage the forum to share ideas and seek feedback on future tooltip improvements (at least while it remains civil and productive), including ways to retain the D&D flavor, give more accurate feedback (e.g. taking into account averages etc) and educate players.

- I'm not expecting this post to distill anyone's disapointment and it's not my intention to offer any false hope or try to win anyone over.

Most reasonable people on the forums know we arent getting the whole picture,we dont see exit polling and we dont spend time in Korthos monitoring general chat.

It just seems like too much weight is given to those polls and a lil' town called Korthos.

I look forward to the future discussions on tooltips and such but right now its frustrating to see all the suggestions that could have been taken into consideration had this not been set in stone.
Its like not giving the benefit of the doubt that the experienced players on the boards cant help educate the newer players.

[OldAquarian]

Ideas

1) Make it easy:

In the toolbar - put the average expected damage on the icon

Ascii Art Time:

     /------------------------------------------------------------\
     ^|!#% 1|!^^ 2|!## 3| O 4 |    5| %  6| ~  7|    8| __ 9| .. 0|
     3| ^%$ |^  ^ | --  | X-- |     | ^^  |~~~~ |     |(  ) | \/  |
     v|  23 | 123 |   2 |  12 |     | 451 |  87 |     |  82 |     |
     \------------------------------------------------------------/

Bonus points if you figure out the spells in the Ascii art

2) Make us really happy
Add an option to add the sound of dice rolling - the more dice - the louder it is
If an enemy approaches - roll some dice

3) Make it match
Put ONLY flavor comments in the tooltip, and a summary

Wall of Fire
o Summon a curtain of fire to destroy your enemies
+ Does 2d6+1 Loaded Damage per caster level
Will do 70 -120 Fire damage to your current target

The + would globally turn off any dice and number info for those that want to be more immersed in the world
(when off the + would be after the o line)
The 'o' would link to your spell book with Wall of Fire selected.
In the spell book - have a panel you can open on the right with the embeded DDOWIKI page (like you embed the ddo store). And put All the information there including all the fully detailed :
And here you would highlight the DDO Dice, mention any cheating, but could footnote the range, and have a link on the Dice to a [u]What Are Dice[u] page, and a link on loaded to a What are Loaded Dice page

So you would say: ... does 2d6 damage plus 1 per level, this uses loaded dice so this is really 2d3+6 +1 per level

Then keep the DDO WIKI absolutely up to date. This would make it much faster to make changes, and you should note upcoming proposed changes

Add an embedded general DDO wiki page for looking up everything. And add links to everything to bring up the correct page for feats, weapons, quests

4) Do the Math for us
Change the tooltips for non equipt items to summarize what you would gain, and what you would lose vs what you are carrrying, including items in the Auction House

[Arkat]

Shhhh... don't draw attention to that or they'll gag him..

Yeah, really.

:sigh:

[Rumbaar]

I myself look at a spell tooltip that says something to the effect of "2d6+1 per caster level (max n)" and think "This is a computer - why do I need to do the math in the middle of an action game? You know my caster level, just tell me the range. And if I'm running maximize, take that into account!" Sure, I want to have access to the formula too, but mostly I want to know the bottom line.

Does this mean that the stats of an item will automatically update on the fly when affects are being applied to it?

So a Heal tooltip with Empowered Heal active will alter to reflect the 50% bonus? If so this is a plus. Which should be the fix not the change.

[Lifespawn]

Didn't get to read everything so this might have been said BUT.

WHY do we not get a heads up that you guys are thinking of changes like this BEFORE it is unchangeable.

Seriously just a little heads up and you wouldn't even need to do a fix because the devs and the playerbase could have come to an agreement that made everyone happy like the dice first and the range second and there would not have been such an uproar.

We need a return of that thing where we got info about what you guys were planning you know Weekly Devs Activities would be thrown out and we could help mold things before they were set in stone.

[Alabore]

New players reading the descriptions in DDO don't have a live group of people to help them.

I would like to - belatedly - chime in on this particular detail.
As they already mentioned, new players DO have a live group of people to relate with.
It's the very nature of an online game, being able to relate to a group of other players for advice from a living human.

And, as some have already pointed out, this particular tweak to DDO did not seem so critical in dealing with the issue at hand, or effective at helping newbies deal with an intimidating new platform.

There are many other ways a new player could cripple his/her character with, that not being able to understand descriptions would be the least concern.
At the very least, they would be reading them, and once you start reading, you already are in the right mindset to ask for help or look up the answer for yourself.

DDO might need a different kind of tutoring, and the problem is not just sticking with heritage or Saint Gygax will cry.
To those who complained it seemed like an arbitrary action, something done for the sake of doing, because they could do it.
There is more to that than just re-learning to understand 2-12 from 2d6.

The problem is not "throwing a bone to some of us" - seriously, I found that particular remark a bit rude.
The problem was: "oi, the ceiling is too low..." and the answer many of those who complained likely perceived was: "well, we'll get your legs sawn down to size".

Let me further elaborate:

While I agree with the first part of your second paragraph and appreciate your post in general, what is coming through loud and clear in this thread is that to most of the players on this forum, the flavor of D&D is not just the world, lore, monsters, items and character build, but the dice mechanic itself. Having the literal turn-based mechanic translated into a real-time environment and preserving the dice mechanic is vital, and transparency with those mechanics very near and dear to their hearts.

I would like to politely dissent.
I am sure it was a problem on my part - I wasn't quite effective at conveying my point.

I would be inclined to say negative reactions to new dice notation are just the tip of the iceberg.
The problem is not just rolling a d20 or choosing 1-20 as a result. It is only part of the whole issue.

As others already mentioned, staying true to DnD mechanics is not just a matter of love.
It's a matter of: if it strays so much from DnD it is no longer DnD, why am I playing it in the first place?

If it is not a matter of love, it is a matter of being on the same page.
If DnD is not mainstream enough for your chosen business model, why bother choosing it?
As they already mentioned, choosing DnD as your franchise means attracting fans of the system.
I would say people did not come to it only because it was free.
But also because it was DnD.

Again, if DnD is not mainstream enough for your chosen business model, I would kindly suggest rethinking your strategies.
I don't think changing a detail new players would be likely to miss - in-game descriptions - will help making DDO any more newbie friendly.
If you, or your bosses, sincerely think 13 yo with no previous rpg experience to be your next new core target, maybe DnD wasn't the best bet ever.

...

That said, I apologise for sounding rude or excessively upfront.
Arial 18 is nowhere as effective at conveying the warmth and subtleties of human conversation as... well, actual human conversation.
I am not here to challenge your choices; rather I'd like to emphasise how we could all be saying "A", while the real issue here might be "B".

...

Ceterum censeo... please, consider re-tweaking stealth as it was in U4.
Or maybe add it as a toggle, so we can choose to keep stealth even after attacking or throwing a bluff...

[Rawel_San]

Wow lots of posts to read from beginning to end.

First let me say I'm also in the keep dice in game camp. Flavor and all.

What I would like to reiterate even though it has been said before is while
the removal of dice from spell descriptions bugs me what bugs me even more
is the direction of development this signifies. It seems to be saying "we really just
want to make sure it's a real easy game to play for everyone and don't really
care what that does to the type of game we're running."

It seems like lately a lot of the "difficulty" has been shifted from playing smart
and figuring out how to do things (Titan,Abbot, Inferno come to mind fast) to
lets make them grind a lot (DT,boots) and maybe buy some pots since all the
monsters now have 10x hp and ignore ac (Epic). While the lower level quests
<14 or so are just becoming easier.

I personaly enjoy most of the game but seeing more quests like titan or abbot or even
the pit at that, where you have to sort of think and maybe play as a team a little would
really be nice.

Also please don't make the dice go away. While they are nowhere near to the main thing
that sets DDO apart they are very important and your willingness to just shift them away
makes me wonder what comes next. The hard part is <snip> decided I wouldn't give
you any ideas or I really might be forced to leave when you take those things away.

Just my 2 copper,
Rawel

[ConnorMacLoad]

Does this mean that the stats of an item will automatically update on the fly when affects are being applied to it?

So a Heal tooltip with Empowered Heal active will alter to reflect the 50% bonus? If so this is a plus. Which should be the fix not the change.

i am not too sure if this is happening, but I would love a real time count of the damage I am going to do based on all available factors.

[Fafnir]

IMO keep the dice.

You're trying to simplify something already simple and it dilutes the flavour and heritage of the game. Think of how tradition is so important to so many things - sport, art, music etc.

[Deathseeker]

While I agree....<snip>

Seriously, this is one of the better dev posts in a long time. A single post like this can really change the tone of the player base.

Please keep doing it on other topics...+1!

[Angelus_dead]

Speaking of accessibility, this is vital for our business model. I appreciate that most of you don't understand why it's difficult to understand that d6 = 1-6 but we get plenty of feedback from those who don't - or are intimidated by the complexities of D&D. While you might think that they don't deserve to play the game, we respectfully disagree.

The current version of the change increases complexity, because it actually misinforms players about some effects of the spells.

For example, when you say a spell does "1 to 6 damage per caster level to a maximum of 60", that is NOT the same as "1d6 per caster level to a maximum of 10d6". The new version is claiming that the damage will continue to improve past caster level 10; the maximum won't get higher, but the average result will climb closer and closer to 60, eventually becoming min(20d6,60).

The new version can also be read so as to say that effects like Maximize and Combustion don't help if they'd take it over 60.

I myself look at a spell tooltip that says something to the effect of "2d6+1 per caster level (max n)" and think "This is a computer - why do I need to do the math in the middle of an action game?

Players do not generally look closely at their spells in the middle of combat. This is an RPG, which means there's a focus on training and equipping characters between battles. Players pay most attention to spell text when they're preparing what to use back in the shops and taverns.

"This is a computer - why do I need to do the math in the middle of an action game?

Um, but the new version makes players do math too, because it doesn't directly express the quantity of most importance: average damage per casting. When you see "1 to 6 per caster level" you have to add up 1+6 and divide by 2 to get 3.5, then multiply times level for 35.

Basically, informative text would be more helpful if it were writting in the format of "A +/- B" instead of "C to D". To say "35 +/=10" or even just "~35" is easier than reading "25 to 45".

You know my caster level, just tell me the range. And if I'm running maximize, take that into account!"

The new DDO version doesn't take level and maximize into account, though. It could be fun if it did.

On a related note, the info window for a weapon includes a "Base Damage Rating" which is quite misleading as to which weapons are actually more damaging, as it assumes that the wielder has 10 strength and no other bonuses.

[MadFloyd]

Does this mean that the stats of an item will automatically update on the fly when affects are being applied to it?

So a Heal tooltip with Empowered Heal active will alter to reflect the 50% bonus? If so this is a plus. Which should be the fix not the change.

That's the sort of thing I'm praying for, whether we ca do it or not is another story.

[Rumbaar]

That's the sort of thing I'm praying for, whether we ca do it or not is another story.

Well fingers crossed, if that type of real time indicator is possible. Then I'm sure not one person would begrudge the changes being made.

I'm sure that most people's concern with these changes, and any, is that in game descriptions give a true and accurate indicator of statistics for that item or spell. Now having real time statistics reflect real time enhancement would be a massive bonus.

This would be a massive step forward.

[Borror0]

That's the sort of thing I'm praying for, whether we can do it or not is another story.

You should look at applying this tech to weapons first, if it is ever developed. Weapons are more complicated for new players to understand and, as Angelus_dead just said, there is already a field for that except it is extremely misleading. It would be a good opportunity to make better use of it.

[sirgog]

While I agree with the first part of your second paragraph and appreciate your post in general, what is coming through loud and clear in this thread is that to most of the players on this forum, the flavor of D&D is not just the world, lore, monsters, items and character build, but the dice mechanic itself. Having the literal turn-based mechanic translated into a real-time environment and preserving the dice mechanic is vital, and transparency with those mechanics very near and dear to their hearts.

As for the transparency issue (1d6 vs 1d3+3); this was news to me and I'm dismayed to learn of it. I totally agree that the game should be transparent and look forward to this being changed (I would want this even if we didn't show the actual damage range of a spell).

We are working on improvements to weapon and spell tooltips for a future update and it's unfortunate that a portion of this work found its way into Update 5. Admittedly, while I would have expected this type of reaction if the D&D dice were not included (at all) in the tooltips, I consider myself duly enlightened with the reaction we're witnessing even with them in.

I know many suggestions have been made (many of which are very close to what we already had in mind, which I'll take as a good sign) and they are helpful; thanks for these.

The only other comment I would like to make is that these forums are not our only source for feedback. Many of you posted that you don't see any threads about players not understanding the game etc. This is true. For the most part, the participation on these boards are from very experienced players.

So, in summary:

- We understand that you feel the D&D dice formulae are part of the flavor of the game and very important to you.

- The die formula is important to understanding the average outcome.

- We acknowledge that the formula for spells wasn't accurate and should be.

- Not commenting on the specific alternative implementation ideas of either educating players or displaying tooltip data differently does not mean we are ignoring the ideas.

- Much of the feedback we get is directly from players and not limited to these forums.

- The tooltip situation cannot be changed for Update 5, but this doesn't mean that it won't get changed for a future update.

- I will be happy to engage the forum to share ideas and seek feedback on future tooltip improvements (at least while it remains civil and productive), including ways to retain the D&D flavor, give more accurate feedback (e.g. taking into account averages etc) and educate players.

- I'm not expecting this post to distill anyone's disapointment and it's not my intention to offer any false hope or try to win anyone over.

I had a few related suggestions that I posted here (for spellcasting UI): http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=254015

That would probably deal with most of the things raised here, and be newbie friendly. A newbie Wiz9 wanting to see how good their Cone of Cold spell is won't see '6-54 damage' or 9d6, instead they'll see (assuming Fire/Ice +30%, 30% Improved Glaciation 5, 2 crit chance and 2 crit intensity enhancements, and a Greater Ice Lore item, plus Maximize but not Empower):

Cone of Cold:
Base damage: 9d3+27 (36-54)
15% crit chance
Deals 115-173 cold damage on a regular casting (average 144, Reflex save DC 21 for half damage)
Deals 259-389 cold damage on a critical (average 324, Reflex save DC 21 for half damage)
Total average damage: 171
Not affected by spell resistance.

This need not be in the spell tooltip, but should be easily accessible (perhaps on the spell list UI interface).

[phillymiket]

<snip> .

That is an excellent post sir. Thank you!

I hope it is not lost on you that this is one issue concerning update 5 that is undeniably unselfish. It has nothing to do with builds, gear or anything concerning anyone's "slice of the pie". It's about a love for the game. (note - I am not implying that any other issues are selfish or not about a love for D&D.)

The dilemma you face is age-old for Dungeons and Dragons.
Yes the game is hard. That's what makes the game great. It's not Monopoly. The subtleties and complexities of the game are part of why we are so prideful and protective of D&D.
The difficult learning curve, while well worth the effort, has always kept D&D somewhat out of the mainstream. On a rainy day at the beach on vacation Dad isn't going to run to the store and buy D&D. He's going to pick up Yahtzee.

We must all admit that we love the big, thick books, at least in part, because they are so intimidating to the people outside of the community of players. This is not a good feature for a product Turbine is trying and needs to market to a wide audience. As a business trying to make a buck Turbine must walk a fine line between reaching for new players unfamiliar with the game and satisfying the old ones who know every rule by heart. We can all (at least most) appreciate the conundrum.

Dungeons and Dragons players make for a tough room. We are going to let you know what's on our minds. While everyone isn't the "comic store guy" from the Simpsons, the comparison is not that far off. However, everyone's intentions on this one are about making your product the best it can be. Even if, as a group, we can sometimes sound demanding and belittling towards your organization, no one wishes for you any unnecessary boondoggles in the competitive on-line gaming market.

We all want DDO to "win".

I thank you for your ear and sympathy for our point if view in this debate.
Please keep communications like this one coming.

[Chaosprism]

That's the sort of thing I'm praying for, whether we ca do it or not is another story.

Numbers on tooltips etc that are affected by metamagic, item modification should also be a different colour from the rest of the text to show that this number DOES change on the fly based on environment.

Something like:

Chill touch does X damage per caster level (maximum M) (222) and Y point of strength damage on a failed fortitude save.


The colour of the damage value (in italics here) could be colored based on the sub descriptor of the damage type. The value would change based on metamagics active, items and enhancments that may modify this value.

Light blue for cold, orange for fire, white with slight pink tinge for lightning, yellow/white for Light damage, Bright White for Positive/Good Damage,
Green for acid , Pink for force damage, Red/Purple for negative energy, Dark Violet for "evil" damage (or black writing with purple border)
Red for Anarchic/Chaos damage. Golden yellow for axiomatic/law damage.
Brown for untyped damage (like horrid wilting or maiming).

[thebrute7]

That's the sort of thing I'm praying for, whether we ca do it or not is another story.

If you can do it it would be amazing! Just saying...

[Ashiel_Dragmire]

Don't forget the Funions...can't forget the Funions.

Mmmm... Funyons and Mountain Dew!

[Dark_Helmet]

Deer Turbin,
pleez do nut removs my dice. I lurned to count playun yahtzee and I am 6 yeers old.

The box sez for age range 8+, so I thunk peeps shud plae yahtzee to lurn hoe too count.

If not I wil cry!