New Dice notation. Do not like.

[Missing_Minds]

This thread is laden with too many attacks and insults to allow it to stay open. We were very clear on what is and is not acceptable feedback regarding the changes. You are welcome to try this again so long as the posts are within the forum guidelines. I'll be very blunt when I say telling players "you're too stupid to learn D&D" is pretty much not acceptable on these forums in any way shape or form.

Tolero... That is exactly what Turbine is telling us by keeping that notation.

In any rendition of DnD I've ever played, it was always roll the dice. 5d6, 10d6, 1d20, etc. Your sum result is the outcome. It is part of the heritage of the game.

[Goldeneye]

It's for the ex-WoW players

[kingfisher]

also tolero, please explain why we are not allowed to call a spade a spade. your making this change because new players complain that the 40 yr old d20 system is too hard to understand. we complain about that change for that reason and are told that its not allowed. do you want our opinion or not?

[Patience]

we complain about that change for that reason and are told that its not allowed. do you want our opinion or not?

We absolutely want feedback on the change, but it should be done civilly, please. This is a community and a public space, so we'd appreciate it if people remembered that when providing feedback.

[rest]

We absolutely want feedback on the change, but it should be done civilly, please. This is a community and a public space, so we'd appreciate it if people remembered that when providing feedback.

It's not that public. You have to sign in to see this stuff


I don't like it. Since I can't say you're dumbing it down.... I guess I would have to say that what you're doing is...





Yeah really I have no other way to say it. Dumbing it down to the lowest common denominator. You reap what you sow. You want to get people who are unable to understand the d20 system, well... you'll get em. Assuming you want them. I guess if they pay you money, you do want them.

[Borror0]

Go back to old notation; use reminder text instead. Please.

[kingfisher]

We absolutely want feedback on the change, but it should be done civilly, please. This is a community and a public space, so we'd appreciate it if people remembered that when providing feedback.

here's some feedback for ya, this change blows. it reeks of marginalization and it takes away a key component from the CORE system that many people joined this game to play under. and no matter how tolero does not want me to say it the clear truth is; this change could only come from new players who dont understand this system (which has been understood for nearly 40 yrs by people from all countries and of all ages without problem) and are not interested in trying. i say that because anyone who tries to understand how dice work, does. its not hard.

so take it out. please.

[Tolero]

I have no problem with players providing feedback on the change. Particularly, if you don't like the chance, please also include information such as:

• Your own suggestions for how to make description text numbers more clear
• Aspects of the current changes that you like the most
• Aspects of the current changes that you like the least

Such details are very very important and imperative. Saying "I hate it all" or "take it back" is not helpful or actionable. There is a middle ground to be had between expecting brand new players to learn about dice they don't get the joy of rolling and showing off the D&D rules set. Just again, make sure that it's actionable feedback that is in the forum guidelines.

[iamsamoth0]

A quickly growing thread...


I simply dislike the elongating of the(each) descriptions with what seems somewhat unnecessary. I don't care for the specific change. Some other way may be more effective and less intrusive.

[Hendrik]

We absolutely want feedback on the change, but it should be done civilly, please. This is a community and a public space, so we'd appreciate it if people remembered that when providing feedback.

In effort to continue proper feedback;

On one hand;

I like the change for the PnP/D&D inexperienced players.

The other;

I STRONGLY dislike it as a long time PnP/D&D player. I know the rules and meanings and prefer not to have it spelled out for me in crayon.

PLEASE take this feedback to the powers at hand;

Make this an option. Make it default to "ON", but allow us to NOT have it on. Please. Thank you.

[Newtons_Apple]

In effort to continue proper feedback;

On one hand;

I like the change for the PnP/D&D inexperienced players.

The other;

I STRONGLY dislike it as a long time PnP/D&D player. I know the rules and meanings and prefer not to have it spelled out for me in crayon.

PLEASE take this feedback to the powers at hand;

Make this an option. Make it default to "ON", but allow us to NOT have it on. Please. Thank you.

This is probably the best compromise. I would like to see my dice, just the way I've always seen them.

Just as a comment, I've done a bit of programming myself. I've written utilities for others to use to facilitate data processing, with detailed step by step instructions and reminders (much like the dice) along the way so each step is clear and easily understood.

But I would still get questions about how they worked or comments that they were too complicated. At the end of the day, the more I would "dummy it down" for them, the dumber the people using them would appear to be. It's called willful ignorance - when a person has something done for them, is content to allow others to do it for them and therefore has no impetus to try.

You can't make everyone understand, whether they don't try or just plain don't get it. It's impossible. The more you "dummy it down" for them, the more you're enabling their willful ignorance, and the less good you're doing them.

[Zzevel]

We absolutely want feedback on the change, but it should be done civilly, please. This is a community and a public space, so we'd appreciate it if people remembered that when providing feedback.

If you make such a ******** change you should expect some sort of backlash, this is mild compared to what the level should be. Its like changing the name from 'Dungeons and Dragons' to 'Pixies and Fairys'. Certain things should be considered holy and you just don't mess with them.

If you want people to understand what the dice are or you think they are not smart enough to figure it out, add 15 seconds to your Korthos Island to throw up a pop up with an explaination.

[megathon]

We absolutely want feedback on the change, but it should be done civilly, please. This is a community and a public space, so we'd appreciate it if people remembered that when providing feedback.

What good is feedback when most of it doesn't get heard? I've seen so many threads on here and various other games of the majority not wanting something added in (or taken out) and yet it gets done anyways. You have the test server. Put what ever changes you have planned there. Let people comment on the change and see how the majority feels. If the majority doesn't like it then take it out. Don't go and push it down our throats by putting it on live anyways. It just makes it look like you don't look at the feedback anyways. Remember your own slogan "Powered by the People".

[WeaselKing]

I am not following this discussion very closely but I do have strong feelings about the topic and feel that I should come back and lay out my feelings in more detail. This change, to me, is a big deal for this game. Even bigger than the twf change.

I came to this game because it was DnD and because the emphasis was in cooperative play, as I have no love for or skill in PvP. In fact, this is my first and only MMO.

The second reason is not affected, thankfully and I hope it never will because DnD is a coop game. However taking out the xdy notation removes the flavor of DnD that I so love about this game. I can see the problem of people being infamiliar with d20 and having a slight learning curve but a quick tutorial could easily instruct new people while still preserving the flavor that us DnD nerds love and deserve to expect from a game branded DnD.

It is such a core part of DnD I would hope that if another game copied it, (cough, cough, Wow, cough) I would expect the appropriate DnD copyright holder to sue the offender.

In conclusion, please return to the xdy notation and eliminate the x to y notation, even if the dice are loaded, it is just how DnD should be.

Oh, and please vote Tabun for featured player, thank you.

[Rabbi_Hordo]

We absolutely want feedback on the change, but it should be done civilly, please. This is a community and a public space, so we'd appreciate it if people remembered that when providing feedback.

Granted, feedback should be civil, but Patience you are asking too much of those of us who have been around since Beta to buy that you folks "absolutely want feedback on the change" from us. Sure, you have been paying attention to the new influx of customers and dramatically changing the game to suit them, moving ever farther away from any resemblance to D&D resulting in what is currently a vaguely D&D-esque MMO that has more in common with other MMOs than D&D itself, but have dramatically and draconically chastised any attempt at criticism or feedback by the DDO veterans.

The Offer Wall was nearly universally challenged, and that was why it was nixed, not because of an outcry by the veteran community and I feel, that based upon the overwhelmingly one-sided method by which Turbine has reacted to feedback that if the veteran community unanimously objected but the new influx of players had liked the Offer Wall it would have stayed. That is your track record. It is a record of dismissive and abusive moderators who feel it is their calling to beat back the veterans of this game and try to cow them into submission.

I react not to the ridiculous d20 questions, but to your statement that you want feedback. I can say, after reviewing your posts, and the posts of many other moderators (I distinguish them from the developers) that your statement is misleading at the very best of all possible interpretations. I am not a child who will /ragequit the game because of the incessant and constant movement away from the creative-thinking game it was towards the one-button-push-for-pablum game it has become, nor are most veterans of the game. But we do ask to be given, at least, the same platform and the same rules-as-enforced by the moderators as you do the newer players. Don't even try to tell me that you do, I have experienced it first-hand as both a "new player" with a new join date and as a vet player...same posts...same words...same quoted text...one no response, the other 2 infraction points. I'll let you figure out which one got dinged and by whom.

I proudly pay for over 6 accounts for my family, and also have 2 FTP and 4 Premium accounts mixed in there for good measure, so I'm not going anywhere with my entertainment dollar. I do, however, ask that we stop being given short shrift and start being treated with the respect due to a paying customer...especially when we do offer up criticism and it is stated politely. Sure warn the ones who are jerks, but the rest of us deserve a voice, and having moderators that categorically chastise veterans for polite, well-voiced dissenting opinions is not, IMHO "absolutely want[ing] feedback."

[Arkat]

Granted, feedback should be civil, but Patience you are asking too much of those of us who have been around since Beta to buy that you folks "absolutely want feedback on the change" from us. Sure, you have been paying attention to the new influx of customers and dramatically changing the game to suit them, moving ever farther away from any resemblance to D&D resulting in what is currently a vaguely D&D-esque MMO that has more in common with other MMOs than D&D itself, but have dramatically and draconically chastised any attempt at criticism or feedback by the DDO veterans.

The Offer Wall was nearly universally challenged, and that was why it was nixed, not because of an outcry by the veteran community and I feel, that based upon the overwhelmingly one-sided method by which Turbine has reacted to feedback that if the veteran community unanimously objected but the new influx of players had liked the Offer Wall it would have stayed. That is your track record. It is a record of dismissive and abusive moderators who feel it is their calling to beat back the veterans of this game and try to cow them into submission.

I react not to the ridiculous d20 questions, but to your statement that you want feedback. I can say, after reviewing your posts, and the posts of many other moderators (I distinguish them from the developers) that your statement is misleading at the very best of all possible interpretations. I am not a child who will /ragequit the game because of the incessant and constant movement away from the creative-thinking game it was towards the one-button-push-for-pablum game it has become, nor are most veterans of the game. But we do ask to be given, at least, the same platform and the same rules-as-enforced by the moderators as you do the newer players. Don't even try to tell me that you do, I have experienced it first-hand as both a "new player" with a new join date and as a vet player...same posts...same words...same quoted text...one no response, the other 2 infraction points. I'll let you figure out which one got dinged and by whom.

I proudly pay for over 6 accounts for my family, and also have 2 FTP and 4 Premium accounts mixed in there for good measure, so I'm not going anywhere with my entertainment dollar. I do, however, ask that we stop being given short shrift and start being treated with the respect due to a paying customer...especially when we do offer up criticism and it is stated politely. Sure warn the ones who are jerks, but the rest of us deserve a voice, and having moderators that categorically chastise veterans for polite, well-voiced dissenting opinions is not, IMHO "absolutely want[ing] feedback."

Yeah!

+1

[EazyWeazy]

Granted, feedback should be civil, but Patience you are asking too much of those of us who have been around since Beta to buy that you folks "absolutely want feedback on the change" from us. Sure, you have been paying attention to the new influx of customers and dramatically changing the game to suit them, moving ever farther away from any resemblance to D&D resulting in what is currently a vaguely D&D-esque MMO that has more in common with other MMOs than D&D itself, but have dramatically and draconically chastised any attempt at criticism or feedback by the DDO veterans.

The Offer Wall was nearly universally challenged, and that was why it was nixed, not because of an outcry by the veteran community and I feel, that based upon the overwhelmingly one-sided method by which Turbine has reacted to feedback that if the veteran community unanimously objected but the new influx of players had liked the Offer Wall it would have stayed. That is your track record. It is a record of dismissive and abusive moderators who feel it is their calling to beat back the veterans of this game and try to cow them into submission.

I react not to the ridiculous d20 questions, but to your statement that you want feedback. I can say, after reviewing your posts, and the posts of many other moderators (I distinguish them from the developers) that your statement is misleading at the very best of all possible interpretations. I am not a child who will /ragequit the game because of the incessant and constant movement away from the creative-thinking game it was towards the one-button-push-for-pablum game it has become, nor are most veterans of the game. But we do ask to be given, at least, the same platform and the same rules-as-enforced by the moderators as you do the newer players. Don't even try to tell me that you do, I have experienced it first-hand as both a "new player" with a new join date and as a vet player...same posts...same words...same quoted text...one no response, the other 2 infraction points. I'll let you figure out which one got dinged and by whom.

I proudly pay for over 6 accounts for my family, and also have 2 FTP and 4 Premium accounts mixed in there for good measure, so I'm not going anywhere with my entertainment dollar. I do, however, ask that we stop being given short shrift and start being treated with the respect due to a paying customer...especially when we do offer up criticism and it is stated politely. Sure warn the ones who are jerks, but the rest of us deserve a voice, and having moderators that categorically chastise veterans for polite, well-voiced dissenting opinions is not, IMHO "absolutely want[ing] feedback."

**** YEAH!!! +1 and more if I could.

[Alabore]

We absolutely want feedback on the change, but it should be done civilly, please. This is a community and a public space, so we'd appreciate it if people remembered that when providing feedback.

My feedback on current subject is negative.
I would kindly suggest reverting to d20 notation.
Eberron Unlimite is based on D&D 3.5; keeping dice notation would be part of the "heritage".

[Lost_Leader]

This change more than any other says to me that the DDO Development team is losing its conviction to stay as true as possible to the D&D roots that our game is based on.

It used to be that every change was always tempered with the underlying question: "Is this as close to PnP D&D that we can make this particular part of the game, without losing anything in gameplay?"

Please, please do not lose this integrity. At the very least, don't touch our dice! Don't forget that DDO is supposed to be the MMO version of Dungeons & Dragons.

[Dark_Helmet]

We absolutely want feedback on the change, but it should be done civilly, please. This is a community and a public space, so we'd appreciate it if people remembered that when providing feedback.

Okay, here is my serious feedback:

D20 is the heart of the game (otherwise they don't have called it D20). Dice are the heart of the game. All of the books are based on a dice game. People can memorize the rules, but they still roll dice.

We heard "Feedback from players quitting said they didn't like the dice" but you don't have a poll of the existing "1 million+ players" playing the game? That is a grievous mistake in your part in not considering the current audience vs. people who quit. If you are going to quote exit surveys, you have to include feedback from the current player base.


Does this mean that if every single person who quit said "I want a car and this to be GTA" that you would put cars in the game and turn it into GTA?

Seriously, F2P has opened up the visibility to the game, but you don't sacrifice your existing player base for possible players (heck, they could leave for any reason!)


F2P is like window shoppers: They walk in, browse and leave - a small percentage actually buy something. P2P are people who came to your store for a purpose - they are already set to spend money.