New Dice notation. Do not like.

[UndyingLord]

I wanna /sign this. Being as professional as I can be with the situation...

I, like many others, play DDO because this is a D&D game. We are fans of the PnP style of gameplay that D&D offers. Taking away xDy or making it an afterthought, takes away from what many of us are here for. If we wanted to play WoW or EQ or Insertrandommmohere we would. We play DDO because it is D&D.

I know I don't speak for everyone and there are some who have never touched a d20 system...but even they get it. This is a change for the worst...and honestly, I haven't seen this kind of /attack since the offer wall...this is not a good move.

/mild rant off

I have two VIP accounts for Myself and My Son. The more Turbine moves away from D&D the sooner I will cancel my VIP acct. I've been with this game since Beta and took a break when it ran out of content.

It would be ashame if Turbine drive out it's FAN base.

[Alabore]

The developers will be straining themselves over a most unwelcome change. Here is what I propose.

* Keep it how it is.
* In the Korthos Tutorial, have a little segment explaining all the different notations of the dice and how they operate. That way, D&D players will be happy, and newcomers will be educated without having to use the advice channel.

I find it sensible.
I wish I could manage and word my opinion so it would sound earnest yet polite enough for posting and poignant enough for remembering.
Without posting a Maximised Empowered Wall of Text...

Dice notation is part of the D&D flavour. As you could infer from previous, sometimes heated posts, player base takes this game and its specific flavour seriously.
Removing it seemed like the wrong step in the wrong direction.

If you are doing this for new players, I - and you - could think of several other ways to teach a fresh new player, who's never had any previous experience with rpgs or mmos - what are they doing here in the first place? nevermind... - d20 notation.
You could add it in the tutorial.
You could put a nice *screen shot with die types*, the same way console games have loading screens showing control combos.
You could implement d20 notation as part of the ubiquitous loading screen tips.

Editing descriptions seemed like a lot of work few people could realistically benefit from.
I did not say "useless", but that's the gist you get when questioning player/fan base about it.

I would politely suggest working tutorial into something more effective for new players to learn the game.
The other day I met a guy with a lvl 5 character. He made it wield two weapons.
It had 10 dex, 17 str, and no dual wielding feat.
He could not quite realise why other players shunned his character.
I tried to explain him what's was wrong.
He's now having it wield a greatsword and he's working toward getting THF.

This is the kind of tutorial you might want to consider working on.
DDO does not feature an auto level-up feature.
Paths work to some extent, but they could use some updating.
Enhancements have to be manually bought - which is rather counter-intuitive for new players, even for those who had some, or a lot of, previous pnp experience.

Tutorial should teach possible roles within a party.
The grotto was great the first couple times because it had a good single player feel to it.
It created context. It provided atmosphere.
It made DDO feel like a single player c-rpg, with solid multi-player features.

Then we got to level 2, and some of us got overwhelmed by choices.
Choices are good. I am all about MORE variety. More ways to reach a given objective.
But the whole point of making a game more readily accessible to a potential new player and customer is turning the learning process into something fun.
Somebody who cannot understand 2d6 won't likely understand 2-12 either.
And won't enjoy the range of options DDO provides.

I have the feeling the change in description was an idea that devs got from some executive who was worried the game would be "too hardcore".
If you, as devs, share that feeling, please consider working on making the game more welcoming to new players, while not estranging the existing player/fan base.

Fan being the right word, as some of these gents truly call DDO home and their fellow team-mates friends.
Something you were very well aware of when you started working on Guilds, at least judging from the comments devs themselves posted about their current projects.

I'll repeat myself here: please consider working on tutorial more.
Adding class-specific quests if necessary.
Maybe creating more low level contents showcasing specific class skills.
I know, vets might moan, but new content is new content; you could grind it for xp and favour with your TR-ed main, or run it on epic with your lvl20.
New content is always good; it means they are still working on the game.

The real problem with DDO is not making dice notation simpler.
The real problem is dealing with a competitive environment, without providing means for new players to learn and become competitive themselves.
New players should be taught about a class's typical function, and expected role within a party.
A lot I read in forums and game chat is: how do I create the ultimate soloer?

Making quest team-friendly does not mean adding or removing locks to shrines.
Making a game new player-friendly should entail more than removing a staple of rpg gaming.
Dice notation.



...

Mmm...

* Rolls Fortitude vs Wall of Text *

1...

Eeks...

[Arsont]

I would prefer for the new annotation to be placed at the end of the description, or behind the dice notation.

Something along the lines of:

2d6 (this means 2-12)

would be a not-so-bad comprimise, IMO, if the new notation can't be moved to the footnote position (where you've moved the dice notation) instead.


After so many years playing, you have already trained me to the dice notation (whether I was/am a DnD player or not). This change has resulted in descriptions having a sort of ... jarring ... effect on my reading comprehension in-game.

I appreciate and applaud your efforts to make dice rolls easier to understand for new players which might not be familiar with dice rolls, but this feels very disruptive to my eyes and brain. I am far too trained to reading the dice roll notation, and seeing it in a particular position on the description; having it changed and moved is not feeling comfortable at all.

This.

I'm relatively new to DDO, but I played PnP a bit before I came. The xDy system isn't hard to use, especially once you get the hang of it. For anyone who doesn't understand it, why not just place it as a footnote of sorts? Seeing as DDO is based on DnD, I really think it'd be an affront to the franchise, the players, and a real disservice to the newer players. A change like this would, in my opinion, alienate a large group of the current player base.

I agree that the best compromise would be to retain the current xDy notation, and then insert the flat numerical amount afterwords as a footnote (In parenthesis like this would be best )

/signed

[Waukeen]

please dont mess with the d20 system.

it's Dungeons and Dragons Online.

D&D uses dice.

its like using hearts for hit points instead of a number.

[tfangel]

Are raids part of PnP? No. You never "had" to get several parties together to do. It was you and your friends, rarely many, taking down the biggest and baddest, not a huge group.

Green steel and the other crafting? Not a thing like PnP. I don't see anyone getting rid of experience to craft anything here.

Turn based? Nope.

Wizards the ultimate power at highest levels? Nope. Just melee things to death (in pnp, they rarely got a chance or survived if wizards were involved) Here, they are buff bots. (still, best spells in any mmo in my opinion)

People complained Eberron wasn't D&D, and should be Forgotten Realms (which is just simply a generic fantasy world from what i played , and i've been playing since 1980)

All this uproar from a description. Seems kind of silly. I've only recently been following this, but from what i read you still "roll", not sure if they will still show the dice (and did it ever really show all the dice? No. If you rolled 3d6, you never saw those there.), but i'd miss that.

DDO isn't PnP, no mmo can be, at least until artificial intelligence is much, much better. A simple notation change seems such a minor thing to get so upset over, flavor or whatever.

[Rumbaar]

The thing is they are saying this is to help new players?

This game is lacking in more areas that need attention for new players. There are no real tutorials for crafting. How many questions are on the general chat with what to do with various shards. Many still do no know what the Stone of Change does.

Address the glaring and much needed areas that have no in game solution.

How are all these new players that are spoon feed such basic D&D knowledge to learn and understand flagging for quests, crafting and other game mechanics that have no in game tutorial or resource.

You are starting in the wrong area, if education and making it easier for new players. This is the least of their worries in regards to understanding D&D.

[Quarterling]

The thing is they are saying this is to help new players?

This game is lacking in more areas that need attention for new players. There are no real tutorials for crafting. How many questions are on the general chat with what to do with various shards. Many still do no know what the Stone of Change does.

Address the glaring and much needed areas that have no in game solution.

How are all these new players that are spoon feed such basic D&D knowledge to learn and understand flagging for quests, crafting and other game mechanics that have no in game tutorial or resource.

You are starting in the wrong area, if education and making it easier for new players. This is the least of their worries in regards to understanding D&D.

This.

I don't know about others, but I had difficulties figuring out all the nuances of what you listed, especially crafting. The only way I ever really understood GS crafting was reading all about it in the forums when I completed my first few runs of Shroud. In most cases, the game shouldn't be confusing enough to have this happen to players.

Now pay attention, are new people actually complaining about the d20 system? Are they totally clueless? If so, simply insert a brief detailed description somewhere along the game, or have it pop up in those "hints" boxes. If nobody is complaining, don't fix what ain't broke.

@Waukeen: I've always wondered what a "Link Build" would be...? EDIT: Nevermind, after some quick searching, I found this.

[TechNoFear]

Jesus saves all others take 4d6 damage

Jesus saves all others take 4-24 points of damage

Not the same. One is obviously a D&D referance the other is just lame. Why do you have to go and do things like this Turbine. This is a D&D based game keep it that way please.

Ummm....I see both as valid D&D notations.

When I started playing D&D (blue boxed set) all die notations were in the x-y format, not xDy format. It wasn't until AD&D that the xDy format became the most common.

As the new descriptions include both, I see no issue (apart from some descriptions becoming longer).

If we are complaining about descriptions getting longer I suggest you log onto Lama and read the tooltip for feats you already have (ie Extend).

That obsfucation is what we should be complaining about.

[Sylvurdragon]

please dont mess with the d20 system.

it's Dungeons and Dragons Online.

D&D uses dice.

its like using hearts for hit points instead of a number.

Good point. - What would happen if Legend of Zelda suddenly went to a numerical life counter rather than hearts. Something that simple would change the feel of the game, completely.

[AyumiAmakusa]

The real problem is the tutorial. A simple die explanation in the beginning would suffice. How hard is it to say, '1d3 means rolling a 3 sided die once and 4d6 means rolling a six sided die four times' and that the damage is the sum of all the dice. There's no need to completely change the die description.

[manumase]

maybe just make the tutorial have that bit more in it, yeh learning to quest is good, but i didnt learn about the stone of change till level 15... maybe add a few more things in the tutorial like a stone of change and a random "sample" recipe, also same can be done for dice, tutorials are always good for new players, i have read this topic so far and i will admit, this does seem sucky, i joined because i love the dice rolling system, i mean hey luck is as much a part of strategy as anything.

I'm All for the making it simpler for newbies, but you can only go so far, i was lucky to have known the dice roll system before this game, but for those that don't, why not just make a tutorial that goes in depth, taking the dice out takes out the luck, which is what D&D is about

[Melyc'inya]

taking the dice out takes out the luck

And thus makes Olladra a very unhappy goddess.

[JPDefault]

Turbine, if your intent is making the game "more easy", please consider that there are better alternatives.
Taking D&D away from DDO is not a good idea. Every update I see that happening. Not good!

Are raids part of PnP? No. You never "had" to get several parties together to do. It was you and your friends, rarely many, taking down the biggest and baddest, not a huge group.
(...)

Actually, I'm pretty sure my "Basic D&D" manual from mid '90s included "raid parties".
The rest is up to the DM, but no DM will tell you "roll 2-12"

[AyumiAmakusa]

What would Gary Gygax say if he saw what the game was turning into?

[Crann]

[QUOTE=AyumiAmakusa;3022015]'1d3 means rolling a 3 sided die once...QUOTE]

haven't played PnP for a long time...when did they come out with those?

[AyumiAmakusa]

[QUOTE=Crann;3023092]

'1d3 means rolling a 3 sided die once...QUOTE]

haven't played PnP for a long time...when did they come out with those?

It was an example~~

[Missing_Minds]

It was an example~~

An example.

http://www.gmdice.com/proddetail.php?prod=D3G-3311-0002

[jarlaxle_dourden]

I agree with folks who say that it's not about a description (honestly, that's a minor thing to me), it's about the underlying philosophy of what this change represents. To me it's a violation of the D&D license and I'm really upset by this. I realize I'm getting all nerd ragey over what ultimately has little impact in terms of gameplay, but shifting the idea of dice to be a second-class citizen in DDO feels wrong to the core.

Please add me to the list of players who would prefer it to remain as is.

d20 system is pure D&D ... remove it and DDO becomes 1 step further removed from D&D.

This is not a direction I feel we should be moving.

IMHO ... If new players can't figure it out ... well ... I'll be nice and stay nothing.

[Missing_Minds]

As much as I HATE to say this.... I actually found a very good use for the new notation, and it IS Turbine's fault.

In PnP, a "round" is a well defined term. However, in DDO, there are 3 forms of a "round" when it comes to time. This has come into contention many a time over what a "round" is in relation to the game. 1d6 rounds can mean 3, 4, or 6 seconds minimum depending on what the connotation is.

Using the new notation for duration, such that instead of
1d6 rounds
we now have
3 - 18 seconds
4 - 24 seconds
6 - 36 seconds
does give us a definitive time period with which to base things on. This would be a good thing.

I still flipping HATE the new notation with all the love I can channel from Thelanis.

[Tilliak]

I fear that the unfortunate truth of the matter is, we're going to be stuck with this sucky dice notation. Turbine has always made changes like this, the community gets ****ed off, the devs and moderators go silent, and we get stuck with ****. Turbine should know that the reason DDO was failing miserably before was NOT because it had a monthly subscription. It was because they would make idiotic changes like this and cram them down our throats to the point where people finally just threw up their hands and quit the game. DDO has more players and is considered successful now because it is free, no other reason. People flock to things that are free. It is not considered successful because of the shovelfulls of garbage, like this, that you force down the playerbase's collective throat.

So, we can complain all we want, but Turbine really doesn't care and has no intention of ever putting the dice notation back the way it was. What is on Lamannia is going to go to live and we will either have to live with it or move on to another game.