New Dice notation. Do not like.

[Temko]

I brought more than rules lawyers, I talked specifically about 3d6 and 3-18 not affecting flavor at all, maybe you missed that part.

close to 500 say they do, less then 10 say they dont... your call to scream either way.
either roll it back, make it an option to turn on (or off) or figure out a way to show the end result of damage

this is neither. and yes, it does heavily break the flavour. my wife who has never touched pnp asked me how much damage my khopest does, i reply "1d8 and x3 crit". took all of "a d8 is a 8 sided dice" to explain.

once.

[Zenako]

I brought more than rules lawyers, I talked specifically about 3d6 and 3-18 not affecting flavor at all, maybe you missed that part.

The key but subtle part of the distinction is that little d in the middle. d = dice

3d6 means to all of us rolling 3 6-sided dice.

3-18 is a random number pulled from a RNG and presented as value. Dice are not part of that action, a RNG is.

Now I know that Turbine does not employ 20 billion people behind the scenes rolling dice and entering values (although that might explain dps lag), but it is the concept of it. Polyhedral Dice. Little plastic orbs of life and death in a fascinating world of fantasy that roll and determine your fate. Just like playing craps in Vegas.
Would they get the same action as they do now, if all the Roller did was hit a button on the edge of the table and get a digital display of two numbers? I think not.

[tihocan]

I myself look at a spell tooltip that says something to the effect of "2d6+1 per caster level (max n)" and think "This is a computer - why do I need to do the math in the middle of an action game? You know my caster level, just tell me the range. And if I'm running maximize, take that into account!" Sure, I want to have access to the formula too, but mostly I want to know the bottom line.

Then give us the mean, not the range. That's what really matters.
A bit like what you've tried to do with weapons, except it's totally flawed since it doesn't take into account your character build, gear, and the weapon magic enhancements (obviously it's impossible to make something perfect, since it depends on what you hit as well, but an approximation would be to consider a target with no AC / DR / immunity to anything).

[Magusrex777]

If this bothers you all so much, I am not going to say you are wrong. It makes you feel a certain way, some mad, some sad, some disappointed. I just wish you did not feel that way. I do not believe you have to. We are just different, I have my opinion you have have yours we can both voice them here.

This is somewhat like the LotR movies. Many people hated because they loved the books so much and things were changed. I think some people even used “flavor” to describe what they disliked. Even though I loved those books so much I went to see the movie expecting to be entertained by someone else’s interpretation and I was, I loved the movies all on their own. I loved the books too, I was not offended but many people were and still are.

It is kind of like DDO. I was not expecting DDO to be exactly like D&D. I was hoping to be entertained and I am. It is close enough that I feel plenty of the flavor, I see it every time I play almost all the time I am playing. I am no more wrong than any of you are. I am sorry some of you going to allow this change to affect you. Not me, I am going to log in, play and have much fun as I can tolerate. Cheers!

[Truga]

Frankly, I couldn't care less about this change, numbers are still just numbers, and I pretty much know the entire d&d spell list, and know that sneak attack gets 1d6 every odd level. And since mages and rogues are all I really play, I think that's all I need. I have a friend however, that was pretty ****ed about this change.

Now, the problem isn't really in just changing the description, but at the same time not giving the option to give back the old notation. I mean, it really isn't hard to put a tick box somewhere into options, where it says show dice instead of raw damage numbers. Then you insert dice instead of damage into the descriptions strings and that's that.

[Magusrex777]

close to 500 say they do, less then 10 say they dont... your call to scream either way.
either roll it back, make it an option to turn on (or off) or figure out a way to show the end result of damage

this is neither. and yes, it does heavily break the flavour. my wife who has never touched pnp asked me how much damage my khopest does, i reply "1d8 and x3 crit". took all of "a d8 is a 8 sided dice" to explain.

once.

Flavor is personal, I can't argue that it changes the flavor to you any more than you can argue that it doesn't change the flavor for me. I will have the same exact amount of fun, satisfaction and enjoyment after this change. I am sorry some of you wont. Mind you it is not going to get better because of it either. If Turbine is getting some negative feedback because of the terminology I believe them, if they feel this will help some people I am good with it. I would be open to some of the other suggestion presented earlier in the thread.

[Zenako]

Mag...another little subtle thing in the release notes that I am repeating here.

The have begun to refer to the "trash" mobs on EPIC as Minions. Minions as in the nomenclature the D&D4.0 abomination uses to describe supporting mobs to the main enemy you are facing. Want to see more vitriol, start trying to champion 4.0 in this venue. Its another step down that slope.

[deathkid127]

I realized that turbine is a company and what do companies care about more than us (the consumer) money of course. they're just trying to gear towards new bloods mostly the f2p people because their precious ddostore brings in the money which the new bloods use the most. most of the new bloods don't know jack **** about the D20 system so they make it super easy for them so they get money faster. tadah!!!

[Modulex]

Make it an option, set it to default to the new style with NEW players, but make it possible to change the look to the current style. That should make everyone happy, and not too hard to code? It would be an important option for many people.

Haven't read all the posts regarding this matter, so if its already said, I'll support it

[Magusrex777]

I would not champion 4.0 but I every time a new release D&D came out people freaked out. If I were playing PnP today, without even looking at the rules, I could run a great campaign with 4.0. I ran great campaigns with Boxed D&D AD&D 1st Ed, 2nd Edit 3rd Edition, GURPS, Rolemaster, Warhammer, Shadowrun. Fantasy hero, Champions, Rifts, Ars Magica, Vampire and more. It was the people I played with and the adventures we went on, not the dice, edition, version or rules. It was what WE made of it. DDO is the same for me, I let myself get immersed in the dungeon and play and enjoy who I am with. We laugh, get excited and ultimately have fun. My DDO expectations are met fully on a regular basis.

[phillymiket]

Baseball has changed in so many ways and the terminology has in fact changed, the rules have even changed. TV and money have changed the game..

But...but...D'oh.
Ok good point.
Still, it feels like it feels. IDK.
Even so, very good point.

Edit - Looking forward to 'Roid grinding
(joke)

[BruceTheHoon]

I believe the simplified X-Y notation has the potential of being even more confusing than the dice notation XdZ.

To make my point, I'll do some math.

Let's take two damage rolls:

a) 3d4+0
b) 1d10+2

They are both represented with the same simplified notation: 3-12.



Now let's consider all the possible throw outcomes in both cases:
Here I will call the result of the throw an outcome value (this is what you get when you throw the dice).
Number of possible throws on the other hand is a total number of different throws, that result in the same outcome value.
For illustration:
In case a), the only way you can throw a 3 is to get a roll of 1 on every dice. This means, that in case a) the number of possible throws with an outcome value of 3, is 1.
If the outcome value is 6, we now have more options. We could roll 1, 2 and 3, or we could roll 3 twos. In this case the number of possible throws is obviously more than 1.

The table looks like this:

outcome value	number of possible throws
(=throw sum)	case a		case b
3		1		1
4		3		1
5		6		1
6		10		1
7		12		1
8		12		1
9		10		1
10		6		1
11		3		1
12		1		1

Now we make an average damage of both cases:
This is done by summing up all the possible outcomes and divide that number by all the total number of possible throws.

a) 480/64 = 7.5
b) 75/10 = 7.5

At this point it's unclear what the problem is (besides of course that D&D without the dice is like a teenage boy band* - fake, concieved from a trend and it's mother could hardly recognise it)
The averages are the same, and will always be for any symmetrical distribution ranging from 3 to 12.

Now let's consider an encounter where the hoodlum has a damage reduction of 10.
If we calculate the average damage again, we get a completely different outcome:

a) (3x(11 - 10) + 1x(12 - 10)/64 = 5/64 = 0.08
b) (1x(11 - 10) + 1x(12 - 10))/10 = 0.3

The weapon in case b) is 27% more effective.
To top it off, the weapon in case a) only hits 4.7% of the time, while the b) weapon hits 20% of the time.

If the damage reduction were 5, (that is below the average of the 7.5), the results would have been turned around.

Now I ask myself, what is more confusing:
-Telling newbies that, while the damage on both weapons/spells/anything says 3-12, one will affect the target 20% times and the other only a bit under 5% and that is why your friend hits regularly and you can't hit ****,
-or explain that 3d6 really means 3 to 3 times 6.

I know similar posts have been made many times, but I'm trying to make a different point, on the basis of all that has been said before and what I've shown.
I believe that familiarization of the new players about the dice notation (not to mention all the other basics like armor class, spell resistance, caster checks...) should still be somewhat forced, not just swept under the rug. Questions are going to be asked by them sooner or later and at that moment they shouldn't have to be forced in making an internet/forums CSI case of it.
Perhaps a simple in-game FAQ could do it.
Having displayed both notations at the same time is an example of such familiarization.
But!
Please leave an option to turn the simplified notation off for me

Q.E.D.

*only my opinion, here for the sake of the simile. Music is nothing but great in every form. If you like teenage boy band(s), good for you, but I know some people who play in them

[Steiner-Davion]

New players reading the descriptions in DDO don't
have a live group of people to help them.

Totally incorrect! They in FACT do have a whole live group to ask for help.

They have countless more people to answer any questions they might have they your average table top PNP RPG group.

It is called: General Chat.
It is called the Advice Channel.
It is called Party Chat.
It is called Guild Chat.
It is called Voice Chat.
It is called submitting a help request.
It is called the Internet.
It is called the Compendium.
It is called NOT BEING SPOON FED and taking responsibilty to LEARN THE **** GAME you want to play!

[bobbryan2]

Except for spells, where we tend to roll skewed things like 2d3+6.

Which brings up one of my first objections...

Why are we purposefully putting inaccurate data in the descriptions? I can see saying 1d6 for P&P fidelity. But if we're throwing that out... at least put the correct range in.

[Ashiel_Dragmire]

You guys are really this upset about a change in description?

It is one of the little things that remind us PnP players of our roots. Taking it away to appease those who don't play PnP is just one of those little annoyances that will snowball into an avalanche of abject hatred and rage. Before long I expect that many long time players will /ragequit DDO altogether, especially if the D&D feel is continually ripped out of the game.

[OldAquarian]

Throw 2 dices, 2d6 for all that matters

What are the possible outcomes of the 2d6? 2-12 range, basic math, right?

Now... what is the probability of getting the numbers between 2-12?

2: 1 Game:1+1
3: 2 Games:1+2, 2+1
4: 3 Games:1+3, 2+2, 3+1
5: 4 games:1+4, 2+3, 3+2,4+1
6: 5 games:1+5, 2+4, 3+3, 4+2, 5+1
7: 6 games:1+6, 2+5,3+4,4+3,5+2,6+1
8: 5 games:2+6, 3+5, 4+4, 5+3,6+2
9: 4 games:3+6, 4+5, 5+4,6+3
10: 3 Games:4+6, 5+5, 6+4
11: 2 Games:5+6, 6+5
12: 1 Game:6+6

There are total 36 outcomes of the 2d6. 7 has 17% of coming out, while 2 and 12 answer for less than 6%. The "new" notation hides that subtle probability and misleads the new to think that ALL numbers in between 2-12 can be obtained on the roll with same proportions.

Actually as mentioned they use cheat dice, seems the formula for XdY is actually X*(Y/2) + Xd(Y/2) so we have:
2d6 = 6+2d3

8: 1 game: 4+4
9: 2 games: 4+5, 5+4
10: 3 games: 4+6, 5+5, 6+4
11: 2 games: 5+6, 6+5
12: 1 game: 6+6

There are a total of 9 outcomes - a range of 8-12 and an average of (8+2*9+3*10+2*11+12)/9=90/9=10

Which is why I think we should show 2d6 (Avg: 10)

In fact:
If you have a +2 bonus, and factor in crit the Avg should show something like 2d6 (Avg: 13) assuming the crit statistically adds 1

That's the bottom line I really want to see

And have a tooltip explaining what dice are and how the dice are weighted, and what bonuses applied as house rules (same as HP per Level is always max)

[Steiner-Davion]

Totally incorrect! They in FACT do have a whole live group to ask for help.

They have countless more people to answer any questions they might have they your average table top PNP RPG group.

It is called: General Chat.
It is called the Advice Channel.
It is called Party Chat.
It is called Guild Chat.
It is called Voice Chat.
It is called submitting a help request.
It is called the Internet.
It is called the Compendium.
It is called NOT BEING SPOON FED and taking responsibilty to LEARN THE **** GAME you want to play!

Thanks for the Neg Rep Magusrex777.

[ReaperAlexEU]

maybe next in the update we can get a UI toggle to switch between fluffy descriptions and concise DnD notation? default should be fluffy to support our newbies.

so /signed for making it an option

[SisAmethyst]

...
Now let's consider an encounter where the hoodlum has a damage reduction of 10.
If we calculate the average damage again, we get a completely different outcome:

a) (3x(11 - 10) + 1x(12 - 10)/64 = 5/64 = 0.08
b) (1x(11 - 10) + 1x(12 - 10))/10 = 0.3

The weapon in case b) is 27% more effective.
To top it off, the weapon in case a) only hits 4.7% of the time, while the b) weapon hits 20% of the time.

If the damage reduction were 5, (that is below the average of the 7.5), the results would have been turned around.

Now I ask myself, what is more confusing:
-Telling newbies that, while the damage on both weapons/spells/anything says 3-12, one will affect the target 20% times and the other only a bit under 5% and that is why your friend hits regularly and you can't hit ****,
-or explain that 3d6 really means 3 to 3 times 6.
...

Yes, that was one of my points too, and with all the weapon effects like fire, pure good, maiming or meta magic like empower, maximize and what ever this get even more worse. Now they will not ask the customer support anymore 'what does 1d6 mean?' but instead 'why people claim that I am uneffectiv (under/overheal) with my healing spells as the range say it should be fine?' or 'why my spell not hit for 120 damage even if the range say it should' ... ohhh wait, the first question may already been asked and answered in the global chat, the later one will be a flame in the forum or a bug report ... welcome brave new world

[Magusrex777]

Totally incorrect! They in FACT do have a whole live group to ask for help.

They have countless more people to answer any questions they might have they your average table top PNP RPG group.

It is called: General Chat.
It is called the Advice Channel.
It is called Party Chat.
It is called Guild Chat.
It is called Voice Chat.
It is called submitting a help request.
It is called the Internet.
It is called the Compendium.
It is called NOT BEING SPOON FED and taking responsibilty to LEARN THE **** GAME you want to play!

You are right, people have help options available. there is nothing wrong with making a game easier to understand.

You understand that the developers are going to continue to make changes that make the game easier to understand to a broader audience right? Each time this happens are you going to get more and more upset? Do you think anyone has reasonable hope to stem this tide? I think the whole dumbing down thing is horse hockey. This is a a video game, it is the mashing of buttons in the propers sequence with the right timing. With time and practice everyone gets good at it, this will never be grandmaster level chess. I don't really care either way and wish you all the best with your crusade to "stop the dumbing down" The game will continue to change, they all do, make peace with it or don't. Me, I will be here havin' fun, playing DDO, letting me remember my youth, regardless of the description on a tooltip.