New Dice notation. Do not like.

[UndyingLord]

What would Gary Gygax say if he saw what the game was turning into?

Gary Gygax quote from Page 3 of Module B2

"When dice are used to randomly determine a number, the
type of dice used are abbreviated ‘d#’ (‘d4’ means a foursided
die, ‘d6’ a six-sided, and so forth). If more than one is
rolled, the number required is placed before the ‘d’ (‘2d6’
means two six-sided dice). If any number is to be added to
the total of the dice, it is indicated afterward (‘d4 + 2’ means
to roll a four-sided die and add 2 to the total: ‘2d8 + 1’ will
thus give a number from 3 to 17). You will quickly get to
know all of these abbreviations, and may use them when
you design your own dungeon."

[phillymiket]

30 second tutorial into korthos, explaining how the dice system works.

Jeets - 'Ello Guvna!
Jeets - Do you see the dice that is being rolled in the lower right hand part of your screen?
Player clicks yes (hitting no would bring up a screen with a picture of the die they are looking for)
Talborn - That is a 20-sided die you see. It generates a random number between 1 and 20 and is described as 1d20.
Talborn - The first number is the number of dice you are rolling. The d stances for "die' or "dice" and the last number is the number of sides on the dice.
Talborn - Standard cube shaped dice you may be familiar with are 6-sided and would be described as 1d6 and generate a random number between 1 and 6.
Talborn - So rolling two 6 sided dice would be described as 2d6 and would generate a random number between 2 and 12.
Jeets - Oi, that's right. There are 4-sided dice, 6-sided dice, 8-sided dice, 10-sided dice, 12-sided dice and 20-sided dice.
Jeets - They are used to describe the chances of hitting an enemy or calculating the damage your weapons and spells will do, among other things.
Jeets - Also matey, some times numbers are added to the dice roll. For example 3d10 + 1 for each level would mean a number between 6 and 33 if you are third level.
Jeets - Easy right?
Jeets - Do you understand?
Player tries to open a door.
Jeets - Do you understand?
Player tries to tumble forward.
Jeets - Do you understand?
Player hits Yes. (hitting 'No' would pop up a screen that explains dice notation further)
Cellimas - Evil doers are ahead! Death to the Sahuagin scum! Chaaaaaargge!!!!!!!!

I myself look at a spell tooltip that says something to the effect of "2d6+1 per caster level (max n)" and think "This is a computer - why do I need to do the math in the middle of an action game? You know my caster level, just tell me the range. And if I'm running maximize, take that into account!" Sure, I want to have access to the formula too, but mostly I want to know the bottom line.

Fair enough.

But I wonder if this demonstrates further why an explanation of the dice notation system is needed.

If, as you have pointed out, there is a large volume of people who do not understand what is going on, then trying to "get around" the misconceptions without actually explaining the system will do the new players a disservice. Turbine won't be able "translate" everything in the game.

The new player's lack of understanding will hurt them when they need to gain levels, pick equipment, feats, skills and spells among other things.
There is no DM in DDO only a narrator and even though the computer can essentially hand a player some dice and say "roll this" the computer can not coach the player in every choice to be made like a DM could. Many of these choices are permanent and have great consequences to future enjoyment.
This could lead to bad choices that will cost the players time and resources and lead to frustrations, people leaving the game, and therefore loss of potential revenue.

If the system was learned, via a tutorial like the mock-up in this post or a pop-up like the G. Gygax quote in the post above, it would in essence kill all birds with one stone.

After all, besides being unique and traditional to D&D, it is the system that governs the whole game. Once it was learned many other concepts would fall into place and make the game better and more accessible for the new player. It would also bring the new player into the wider world of Dungeons and Dragons and allow for more cross-pollination between the computer and table-top systems thus opening the door for new markets and greater profits.

[UndyingLord]

Are raids part of PnP? No. You never "had" to get several parties together to do. It was you and your friends, rarely many, taking down the biggest and baddest, not a huge group.


DDO isn't PnP, no mmo can be, at least until artificial intelligence is much, much better. A simple notation change seems such a minor thing to get so upset over, flavor or whatever.

again from Module B2

"Dungeons & Dragons
Dungeon Module #B2
The Keep on the Borderlands
Introduction: Welcome to the land of imagination. You are
about to begin a journey into worlds where magic and
monsters are the order of the day, where law and chaos
are forever at odds, where adventure and heroism are the
meat and drink of all who would seek their fortunes in uncommon
pursuits. This is the realm of DUNGEONS &
DRAGONS@ Adventure Game.
If you plan to play in this module and participate in the fun
of adventuring, stop reading now. The information in the
rest of the module is for your Dungeon Master or DM, so that
he or she may guide you and other players through a thrilling
adventure. Knowing too much about the contents of this
module will spoil the surprises and excitement of the game.
Dungeon Masters, if many copies of this module are available
to the players, you may wish to alter sections of the
Keep and the Caves of Chaos. If you do this, you will be sure
to have new surprises for players who might be familiar with
some of the contents of the module. You are not entering
this world in the usual manner, for you are setting forth to be
a Dungeon Master. Certainly there are stout fighters,
mighty magic-users, wily thieves, and courageous clerics
who will make their mark in the magical lands of D&D@
adventure. You, however, are above even the greatest of
these, for as DM you are to become the Shaper of the
Cosmos. It is you who will give form and content to all the
universe. You will breathe life into the stillness, giving meaning
and purpose to all the actions which are to follow. The
others in your group will assume the roles of individuals and
play their parts, but each can only perform within the
bounds you will set. It is now up to you to create a magical
realm filled with danger, mystery, and excitement, complete
with countless challenges. Though your role is the
greatest, it is also the most difficult. You must now prepare
to become all things to all people.
NOTES FOR THE DUNGEON MASTER
The basic instruction book for DUNGEONS & DRAGONS@
Game has given you the information necessary to understand
this game and start play. This module is another tool.
It is a scenario or setting which will help you to understand
the fine art of being a Dungeon Master as you introduce
your group of players to your own fantasy world, your interpretation
of the many worlds of DUNGEONS & DRAGONS@
Adventure. THE KEEP ON THE BORDERLANDS is simply offered
for your use as a way to move smoothly and rapidly
into your own special continuing adventures or campaigns.
Read the module thoroughly; you will notice that
the details are left in your hands. This allows you to personalize
the scenario, and suit it to what you and your players
will find most enjoyable.
NOTE: Several words in the following text will be followed by
an asterisk (*). This means that the word will be explained in
the Glossary at the end of this module.
This module has been designed to allow six to nine player
characters of first level to play out many adventures,
gradually working up to second or third level of experience
in the process. The group is assumed to have at least one
magic-user and one cleric In It. If you have fewer than six
players, be sure to arrange for them to get both advice and
help in the KEEP. For example, they should have advice
from a friendly individual to “stay near the beginning of the
ravine area, and enter the lower caves first”, to avoid their
getting into immediate trouble with higher level monsters.
Likewise, the services of several men-at-arms* must be
available to smaller parties, If only two or three player characters

[DagazUlf]

So, just looking back through this thread... Do you realize how many that have posted here in complete opposition to this change have threads where they are flaming each other, getting banned, had threads closed, etc.?

Not only are you seeing loads of people say this is an awful change, you have people that don't agree on anything standing hand-in-hand and saying this is an awful change! That's probably 10X value right there.

[Melyc'inya]

Gary Gygax quote from Page 3 of Module B2

"When dice are used to randomly determine a number, the
type of dice used are abbreviated ‘d#’ (‘d4’ means a foursided
die, ‘d6’ a six-sided, and so forth). If more than one is
rolled, the number required is placed before the ‘d’ (‘2d6’
means two six-sided dice). If any number is to be added to
the total of the dice, it is indicated afterward (‘d4 + 2’ means
to roll a four-sided die and add 2 to the total: ‘2d8 + 1’ will
thus give a number from 3 to 17). You will quickly get to
know all of these abbreviations, and may use them when
you design your own dungeon."

Hey!

I wonder how hard it would be to get permission to use most of that right there, verbatim, as a tutorial from an NPC...let's say, quoting this one awesome guy he/she met one time.

[Primalhowl]

For what it's worth, it's not our intention to drain the D&D out of the game. We're proud that we're D&D, that our game is unique amongst the competition, etc.

This does not really match with the following...

I appreciate that most of you don't understand why it's difficult to understand that d6 = 1-6 but we get plenty of feedback from those who don't - or are intimidated by the complexities of D&D.

I think the point you are missing here is that these challenges and complexities ARE what makes DDO unique from other MMOs. In fact, most of us who have stayed around for 4+ years have stayed because of this uniqueness, this complexity.

We all understand that in order for you to make money, you need to draw in new players. But to keep those players you should be emphasizing the uniqueness, not mimicking other MMOs (virtually all of which that I have tried have damage labels exactly like what you have implemented on Lammaland). How does this show pride in the uniqueness of the DDO system?

Speaking of accessibility, this is vital for our business model.

This is another point that could be clarified. What IS your business model? Is it JUST to bring in new players? Or is there any thought to retention of older players? Because everything that has happened since DDO: EU was released has indicated the former, sadly. And that is ignoring the obvious misinterpretation of the concept of a VIP when deciding on what to do with continuing subscribers...

While you might think that they don't deserve to play the game, we respectfully disagree.

This is fairly confrontational statement. I don't recall anyone saying they don't deserve to play. I think what the VAST majority of people responding to this change are saying is that we feel that in your attempts to draw in new players, you are sacrificing what it is that makes this game great.

We are saying that there may be a steep learning curve to this game for some, but we like it that way because that learning curve is a result of all those things, like dice rolling, that make this game unique.

We are saying that we feel that all of those touches that brought all of us here are rapidly being removed from the game in the interest of drawing new players, in spite of the fact that we were all new players once and it was those unique touches (like dice rolling) that have kept us here, even through the great content drought of 2009.

I have been saddened today to see some very long-standing and well respected pillars of the DDO community indicate they are walking away, not because of changes to combat or nerfs or the like, but because they have given up hope; hope that the developers still have sight of what put the D&D in DDO... even when all evidence indicates that the business model over the last 9 months has little interest in the D&D part of DDO.

[Tilliak]

We had a bit of a snafu with the D&D dice thing in the sense that it was supposed to be an option. I don't believe in forcing anyone to play the way I might want to play, but rather provide a choice. We are not able to revert this change for Update 5.

Speaking of accessibility, this is vital for our business model. I appreciate that most of you don't understand why it's difficult to understand that d6 = 1-6 but we get plenty of feedback from those who don't - or are intimidated by the complexities of D&D. While you might think that they don't deserve to play the game, we respectfully disagree.

Please see my previous post about how Turbine is going to cram this down our throats whether we like it or not. This is nothing but a, "Screw you. We're doing it, you can deal with it." Not once, ever, have I seen a post in the forums or anywhere else where someone was having difficulty with the dice notation. Never. You are correct in saying that d6 = 1-6. HOWEVER, 2d6 does NOT equal 2-12. You might want to look at your statistics and probabilities, or did none of you take any math classes?

[Dingdongtudelu]

If you are unable to revert this for update 5, due to time constraints (which I hope is the reason), I certainly hope you'll do it in the very near future, or no matter how hard you try, you are going to see a lot of VIP accounts cancelled. You may hold the ropes to the development, your playerbase holds your funding.

Give a little, take a little.

[Temko]

actually... i'd go so far as to say "Delay Module 5 until this change is reverted."

and no, i'm not joking.

[Tilliak]

Another example of how Turbine is going to force this on us is that it is currently on a test server that everyone has been on to test the new changes. The majority of those people hate the changes and have given examples of how they are simply not correct.

So, IF this is the case, and it is, what the hell is the point of having a test server to test things on? Turbine put it on the test server, we tested and told Turbine they failed, and they are telling us, "Well, it's too late to pull it out now. You're screwed and stuck with it." What exactly is the point of having a test server at all? You obviously don't give a **** about any feedback that is given from the test server (this is evident from the multitudes of bugs that have been reported over and over and over and over and over and yet you have done nothing to fix them).

[Zippo]

Thanks for the feedback.

For what it's worth, it's not our intention to drain the D&D out of the game. We're proud that we're D&D, that our game is unique amongst the competition, etc.

We're really just trying to make the game more accessible. We had a bit of a snafu with the D&D dice thing in the sense that it was supposed to be an option. I don't believe in forcing anyone to play the way I might want to play, but rather provide a choice. We are not able to revert this change for Update 5.

Speaking of accessibility, this is vital for our business model. I appreciate that most of you don't understand why it's difficult to understand that d6 = 1-6 but we get plenty of feedback from those who don't - or are intimidated by the complexities of D&D. While you might think that they don't deserve to play the game, we respectfully disagree.

I myself look at a spell tooltip that says something to the effect of "2d6+1 per caster level (max n)" and think "This is a computer - why do I need to do the math in the middle of an action game? You know my caster level, just tell me the range. And if I'm running maximize, take that into account!" Sure, I want to have access to the formula too, but mostly I want to know the bottom line.

Anyway, I'm not trying to tell you how you should feel about this. Your opinions and reactions are yours; all I'm trying to say is that we aren't intentionally trying to remove D&D from the game - we're trying to remove any barriers that prevent non-D&D experienced folks from otherwise enjoying an awesome game.

You are aware of what the acronym SNAFU actually stands for right?

Situation Normal: All ****ed up or all fouled up.


Not to be picky over semantics but taking that one literally seems to imply that these changes are... well I'm sure you get the point.

[netops]

/signed.

I feel this is a poor direction for a D&D franchised game. I think it would be less dammaging to remove Gary Gygax's voice over from Delera's (and that would be sacrilege).

Will it stop me playing the game: probably not, though I will be far more likely to download LOTR when it goes F2P now (maybe thats the aim, I've bought my adventure packs now, how else can they encourage me to spend).

I would usually characterise myself as a member of the (almost) silent majority, but I feel this is an issue that needs addressing, as it does far more dammage than good.

[phillymiket]

Please see my previous post about how Turbine is going to cram this down our throats whether we like it or not. This is nothing but a, "Screw you. We're doing it, you can deal with it." Not once, ever, have I seen a post in the forums or anywhere else where someone was having difficulty with the dice notation. Never. You are correct in saying that d6 = 1-6. HOWEVER, 2d6 does NOT equal 2-12. You might want to look at your statistics and probabilities, or did none of you take any math classes?

First I would say I tend to take people on their word and am overly-trusting even naive.
Second I would say I too am upset and do not like the new system.
Third I would point out I am new and have not seen the past interactions between Turbine and the player base.

That being said, it is possible there are many tickets Turbine receives from people who are confused who are too embarrassed to ask such a basic question on the /advice channel because it can be often mocking to some questions. That same player is very unlikely to even visit the forums much less post a question.

I am choosing to believe them on that point and argue from a stance that it is indeed a real issue they are perceiving and am seeking a solution that satisfies their needs as well as mine.

I also have confidence that they are reading this thread and considering the opinions being offered but at this point would need to convince higher-ups who have already taken time and effort in devising a plan they feel is effective (even if I totally disagree with it). I continue to hold out hope that a solution exists.

But, as I said, I tend to be naive.

Respectfully,
"that" guy

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Are raids part of PnP? No. You never "had" to get several parties together to do. It was you and your friends, rarely many, taking down the biggest and baddest, not a huge group.

That was you choice. the "standard" group was 4-6 people, but many built for more. Plus some group played 2 characters each, very much creating our raid sized group.

The only limitting factor with large groups in D&D was that turn based play could make it seem slow.

Green steel and the other crafting? Not a thing like PnP. I don't see anyone getting rid of experience to craft anything here.

Correct, that was one of the first major departures from D&D. And from that very day people had complaints about this being the replacement for proper D&D crafting.

Are raids part of PnP? No. You never "had" to get several parties together to do. It was you and your friends, rarely many, taking down the biggest and baddest, not a huge group.

That was you choice. the "standard" group was 4-6 people, but many built for more. Plus some group played 2 characters each, very much creating our raid sized group.

The only limitting factor with large groups in D&D was that turn based play could make it seem slow.

Green steel and the other crafting? Not a thing like PnP. I don't see anyone getting rid of experience to craft anything here.

Correct, that was one of the first major departures from D&D.

Turn based? Nope.

Wizards the ultimate power at highest levels? Nope. Just melee things to death (in pnp, they rarely got a chance or survived if wizards were involved) Here, they are buff bots. (still, best spells in any mmo in my opinion)

Once again, departures from D&D people complained about. (You have an old date, but you don't seem to have been around much if you don't know this)

[Shade]

Sure, I want to have access to the formula too, but mostly I want to know the bottom line.

I agree, I want to know the bottom line too - but this horrible system does NOT tell us the bottom line.

We are well aware that the numbers presented to us are plain wrong and made up. We tested this years ago.

d6 for fireball is NOT 1 to 6. That's just another wrong way of saying it. Do we need to see it the wrong way twice?

It's 1d3+3 damage, or 4 to 6 damage. Why not tell us that? That's what we want to know.

The truth. Not another way to lie to us.

[Sweetsoul86]

/rant

Thanks for the feedback.

For what it's worth, it's not our intention to drain the D&D out of the game. We're proud that we're D&D, that our game is unique amongst the competition, etc.

We're really just trying to make the game more accessible. We had a bit of a snafu with the D&D dice thing in the sense that it was supposed to be an option. I don't believe in forcing anyone to play the way I might want to play, but rather provide a choice. We are not able to revert this change for Update 5.

Speaking of accessibility, this is vital for our business model. I appreciate that most of you don't understand why it's difficult to understand that d6 = 1-6 but we get plenty of feedback from those who don't - or are intimidated by the complexities of D&D. While you might think that they don't deserve to play the game, we respectfully disagree.

I myself look at a spell tooltip that says something to the effect of "2d6+1 per caster level (max n)" and think "This is a computer - why do I need to do the math in the middle of an action game? You know my caster level, just tell me the range. And if I'm running maximize, take that into account!" Sure, I want to have access to the formula too, but mostly I want to know the bottom line.

Anyway, I'm not trying to tell you how you should feel about this. Your opinions and reactions are yours; all I'm trying to say is that we aren't intentionally trying to remove D&D from the game - we're trying to remove any barriers that prevent non-D&D experienced folks from otherwise enjoying an awesome game.

The simple point here is that we have made numerous suggestions that are not only faster and easier but are also CORRECT.

There are at least half a dozen legitimate, cost effective, well thought out suggestions in this thread and the only thing you can do is comment on the minority of people who are saying that people who can't understand don't deserve to play?

MOST of us have told you in a very polite manner why we dislike the change, that we DO UNDERSTAND the need to explain some things to new players so they don't feel lost and that we are willing to help and have many suggestions for ways to do this. We as a collective have banded together more than any other thread I have seen on these forums in the 2+ years I've been playing. I for one am completely insulted that you think we don't understand.....have you read this thread? What have we been saying?

So, just looking back through this thread... Do you realize how many that have posted here in complete opposition to this change have threads where they are flaming each other, getting banned, had threads closed, etc.?

Not only are you seeing loads of people say this is an awful change, you have people that don't agree on anything standing hand-in-hand and saying this is an awful change! That's probably 10X value right there.

THIS RIGHT HERE! Many of us can't get along long enough to say hello and look around we are at nearly 500 posts most of which say the same thing over and over....that we love our dice the way it is and we don't want to see ddo slide downhill further away from its roots and that there are better solutions to this problem, better ways to teach people. Honestly it would be better if you got players to volunteer to help new players out, set people up with a buddy or a guild or something, anything.

I can't believe I'm going to quote myself but here it is...

I sincerely hope you go with a choice that can help the new players fall in love with d&d like so many of us while keeping the flavor and heart of what we came here for.

Don't you see that we do want to help new players? We want them to love this game the way we do. What's wrong with wanting to share a game you love so much?

Whatever, I'm off my soapbox. Clearly you're only reading what you want to read and not actually listening to anything we're saying. I'm truly sorry that that's how YOU feel about things but your opinion is your own and ours is ours.
/endrant

[Solmage]

Speaking of accessibility, this is vital for our business model. I appreciate that most of you don't understand why it's difficult to understand that d6 = 1-6 but we get plenty of feedback from those who don't - or are intimidated by the complexities of D&D. While you might think that they don't deserve to play the game, we respectfully disagree.

I respectfully submit you're walking all over your EXISTING, PAYING user base in order to follow a pie in the sky that you can't have. The people who are incapable of understanding 1d6 after a brief explanation are thoroughly incapable of grasping various saves, DRs, spell DCs, etc, etc, etc, so you WILL have to get rid of all that is D&D 3.5, to arrive with a generic wow-like game. You already have LOTRO. Send the people incapable of grasping 1d6 over there.

We had a bit of a snafu with the D&D dice thing in the sense that it was supposed to be an option. I don't believe in forcing anyone to play the way I might want to play, but rather provide a choice. We are not able to revert this change for Update 5.

Translation: You, our existing customers, in spite of having made it abundantly clear how much this means to you and annoys you, are out of luck. So any chance we can get our subscriptions refunded starting from U5 and until the day this is changed?

I myself look at a spell tooltip that says something to the effect of "2d6+1 per caster level (max n)" and think "This is a computer - why do I need to do the math in the middle of an action game? You know my caster level, just tell me the range. And if I'm running maximize, take that into account!" Sure, I want to have access to the formula too, but mostly I want to know the bottom line.

Yeah but the current system DOES. NOT. DO. THAT. *NOBODY* would be complaining if after the D&D notation, a separate paragraph told you how much damage your spell or weapon will do with all current modifiers, as opposed to the completely misleading re-writing of the 2D6.

[CavernDragon]

Stop messing with my game.






Wait, I think I can make it ez on the younger gen.

[phillymiket]

Wait, I think I can make it ez on the younger gen.

What is that an all-in-one "everything" die? That is so cool.

[Borror0]

/snip

Pointing out previous deviations from D&D, like tfangel did, to justify this change did is fallacious thinking and you should not honor those arguments with a response as that would give the false impression they are worthy of consideration - they are not. Simply because Turbine has deviated from D&D in the past does not mean they should do it again. Each instance should be looked at on a case-by-case, need-to basis.

If MMOs are often built on a known intellectual property. Part of the reason why is that it has an established trust capital: people are more likely to click through on an ad using an intellectual property they known like Star Trek than one using an unknown IP like Evony. More importantly though, MMOs are built on a known IP because it attracts fans of the setting. D&D fans looked forward to DDO just like LOTR fans looked forward to LOTRO. And then the aesthetic of the game keeps them around: Trekkies play STO because of the Star Trek lore, D&D fans play DDO because of the D&D aesthetic and Tolkien fans play LOTRO for a good dose of Middle Earth.

I know this is mostly pointing out the obvious but that is necessary to make the following point: there is a drawback to deviating from the source material. The D&D fans who were attracted or stayed because of the D&D aesthetics will be more prone to leave or less likely to join the less DDO remains them of the tabletop game they liked.

All of this brings us back to the point I made at the end of the first paragraph: each possible deviation should be looked at on a case-by-case, need-to basis.

Let's pick an open-minded stance like phillymiket's:

I am choosing to believe them on that point and argue from a stance that it is indeed a real issue they are perceiving and am seeking a solution that satisfies their needs as well as mine.

Such an approach is the most constructive way to engage in the conversation: you assume that assumption made by the other party is correct and seek a possible compromise or alternative where both the other party's concern and yours are addressed. If that is the case, then the solution proposed by the other party should be abandoned for the obviously superior solution.

And that is what is so frustrating in this conversation. As I already explained before, solutions that seem obviously superior to us have remained ignored by MadFloyd. It is not a discussion where players have been largely non-constructive. There are at least a few usable suggestions in this thread, yet MadFloyd does not comment on them and practically tell us to suck it up. Perhaps those solutions are under discussion at Turbine. If so, great! However, if that is the case, perhaps it would have been preferable if MadFloyd had remained silent until he was able to comment on those suggestions in detail.