Still no 32 point build in the shop?

[miceelf88]

There's no need to reroll a 28 point character. as MANY people who have both 28 and 32 point chars have noted, the 28 point chars are by no means gimped. If you're obsessed about the fact that there's a theoretical possibility that your character could have slightly higher stats, when this fact has no reflection whatsoever on your ability to complete dungeons and contribute to a team, well, you're going to hate a lot of things about this game.

The advantage of a 32 pt character over a 28 pt character is very small compared to the advantage of a twinked lowbie character over a non-twinked lowbie character. That rogue you're running with in waterworks, who's got the fancy gear has a much bigger advantage over you than does a non-twinked 32 pt character. Does that mean that the really good gear should also be for sale?

And at higher levels, shrould items really make a much bigger difference than 4 build points. SHould shroud gear also be for sale (it's much more of a grind even prepping for the shroud, let alone getting the gear than it is to get to 1750.)

And the complicated builds taht are supposedly so sensitive to the 28/32 difference? They're also very sensitive to gear and tomes.

[miceelf88]

I know we disagree on this (and I also disagree with you about the advice to essentially grind xp then grind favor, although I understand if speed is of the essense it's probably the best way).

But I have to say, good advice about the wf wizzy build.

[DSC]

And the complicated builds taht are supposedly so sensitive to the 28/32 difference? They're also very sensitive to gear and tomes.

Right, but you could someday earn the gear and tomes, even if you are nowhere close to it now. You can never earn the 32-point build without rerolling (until they introduce full respecs, which I personally wager we'll see in the next six months).

I don't think that people who argue in favor of the current system realize what a huge turn-off it is for some new players. Not everyone, certainly, but there are a number of people who want the potential for their character to be the "best that it can be". If it were possible to apply the 32-point build to your character after you earned it, I think 99% of the complaining about it would disappear - but as it is, it's a huge negative for certain perfectionist/completionist players (a common MMO mindset), and some of those people quit the game as soon as they realize what the system means for their first character.

[Ephemeral]

I know we disagree on this (and I also disagree with you about the advice to essentially grind xp then grind favor, although I understand if speed is of the essense it's probably the best way).

But I have to say, good advice about the wf wizzy build.

Don't get me wrong - i think that a newcomer to DDO grinding xp like this is a surefire recipe to set wrong expectations and wrong playstyles over the game. However, this for me is at the heart of the stupidity that is 32pt favor. A powergamer coming to DDO who cares about having 32pt access is likely to adopt a strategy similar to the one I outlined, and in doing so they will miss the charm of the game. If we just gave everyone equal starting builds, and gave an in-game favor reward for 1750, then the grind i described would simply not be necessary, and powergamers or people who are really bothered about having a lesser build would be able to enjoy the scenery and smell the roses on the way up.

I honestly believe that 1750 favor / 32pt builds are a root cause of the zerging mentality prevalent amongst vets of ddo. Many people have commented that they are amazed by the speed at which ddo vets complete quests; its a completely different playstyle to what you find in other mmos. I think a huge underlying reason for this is that we have all at one point or another been hit by the favor grind, and found ways to speed up our play to relieve the inherent boredom of grinding easy quests.

[miceelf88]

DSC- I agree, and I would definitely support the availability of a respec, on reaching the requisite favor, from 28-32 (and not just at that moment, but for anyone ever). But I think many of the people who are turned off just have to be in their minds exaggerating the import of that difference.

My arguments aren't against a respec, but against making 32 point builds buyable.

[ashurum]

What is it with this thread and strawmen?

My assumptions:

i. for a veteran player, levelling a character up to 20 takes a few days, particularly on a server where full twink gear is available for the alt

ii. raid gear is extremely time consuming to obtain, and is bound to character

iii. many people with 28 pt builds from the start of the game have built up lots of raid gear on their toons

iv. any new toons made by people with 1750 favor are 32pt toons. If they had the option to make 28pt builds instead, they would choose to make 32pt builds because 32>28

The way that I see this particular matter is:

- new players don't want to have to grind out favor for a 28pt build when most of the players around them are using 32pt builds

- new players are predominantly casual, by which it is meant they have fewer play hours available to them in the week than hardcore players

- Turbine is aware that the no of casual / new players is a huge untapped market for them, and it represents the only real way to grow their DDO revenues

- 'Earning' 1750 does not take any special skill or effort; it merely takes time. If you are a veteran player you can grind out 1750 faster than if you are new, but ultimately its a matter of time spent running and rerunning quests



Based on these assumptions, my conclusions are that in prinicple, the only thing that veteran players 'lose' by making 32pt builds available is that their current 28pt'rs cannot be rerolled to 32pt without losing their bound loot. The bound loot in truth represents the real time investment made by the veterans, not the fact that their characters are level 20.

They don't like it that new players could potentially have 32pt characters bought from the store because they can't do the same for their existing 28pt'rs without losing the loot. This is the driver behind the calls for a respec mechanism before 32pt builds are buyable.


My view on this is slightly different. I consider that toons are ranked in this order:

32 pt builds with lots of uber gear > 28 pt builds with lots of uber gear >>> 32 pt builds with no gear > 28 pt builds with no gear

The uber gear is worth way more than 4 build points, and much of it takes days, weeks, or even months to accumulate.

What the veterans see when they don't want the buyable 32pt favor is the first half of that line, i.e.

32 pt builds with lots of uber gear > 28 pt builds with lots of uber gear

and they don't like the idea that their 28 pt builds are in theory worse than a newcomer buying 32 pt builds today and then getting all that loot. They didn't have the option with their first toon, so its unfair. This misses the point of course that the newcomer will be spending a whole load of time grinding that gear starting from today. If the veterans really wanted to, they could reroll their current 28pt'rs and get the loot again, but they don't want to do the grind again (understandably so).


What the newcomers see is the second half of that line, i.e.

32 pt builds with no gear > 28 pt builds with no gear

And they don't want to have 28 pt builds because they know that 32pt builds are better, and that their first toon is throwaway if they really care about having the 4 points.


The reason why I think 32pt builds should be buyable is because I see the middle of that line, i.e.:

28 pt builds with lots of uber gear >>> 32 pt builds with no gear

Whichever way you spin it, a 28pt build with full access to raid gear, +2 and +3 tomes etc, is better than a naked 32pt build. I am happy for 32pt builds to be made available to newcomers, because they will have characters they can get attached to, and over time they can aim to build up uber loot like the veterans.

I never committed a strawman arguement with that statement as I in no way tried to prove anyone wrong. I just think everyone is lying about the reasons they want one thing or the other.

I have drow unlocked from when I played way back so I could care less. I can just make a sorcerer to get to that 32pt build and it can still be argued that the drow make the best sorcerers.

[Ephemeral]

I can just make a sorcerer to get to that 32pt build and it can still be argued that the drow make the best sorcerers.

Second best, after 32pt humans

[Samiusbot]

This may be the 'best' way to handle buyable 32pt builds, however its not the easiest to implement.

As I stated in my post, really we are looking at two different but related issues:

- allowing people without 1750 favor to buy 32pt builds (easy to implement, as the code already exists for this through the unlock via Nyx mechanism)

- allowing a respec of 28pt builds to 32pt builds (presumably difficult to implement, with many prerequisites such as minimum levels on tomes needing to be in place first)

If newcomers are leaving right now because of the first issue, then fix that right now and make 32pt builds buyable through the store.

For the second issue, continue to work on it and provide it to veterans when the functionality is ready.

You have a permanent unlock for 32 point builds (favor) if you want a 32 point build and want one so badly you get to buy a 28 to 32 point upgrade. Then if you want more you pay one on one or unlock all new via favor.

It is not like the start of this 28 to 32 point system is not in place, tomes now have a minimal level.

But the point is unlocking 32 point builds would cost a ton. If every new Pc can be 32 forever what would that need to be priced at to sell? When there is a demand for old 28 point to become 32 points, if older PCs cost to much then players will leave their 28 points "gimped" and play their 32s. Where new players can skip ahead, for a one time 3000 tps! It would have to be nuts costly to make up for the loss of long term sales. Vs 300 tp for a 28 to 32 upgrade always being used!

You are thinking of it as 2 different problems but it is not, it is the same problem. You are just not standing in the right place to see it.

If you made two 28s and made them 32s them played them as normal in the course of play you would get to 1750. You might never know you didn't have 32s unlocked, unless you want to make a new Pc. But that new PC could become 32 at anytime.

[lucien123]

I think the best solution would be to remove 32pt builds from the game entirely, with no grandfathering for VIPs.

The 32pt build was a poor design decision.

And really, favor unlock for a class/race is also not good game design. But what the hey do I know, right?

[Avonwey]

I think the best solution would be to remove 32pt builds from the game entirely, with no grandfathering for VIPs.

The 32pt build was a poor design decision.

And really, favor unlock for a class/race is also not good game design. But what the hey do I know, right?

I'm sure no one will complain about that though. And we'd return to the land of Drow.

[lucien123]

The most fascinating thing to me about this conversation is the lack of commentary of what is BEST for the GAME/TURBINE, which to me seems to be the generation of as much revenue as quickly as possible.

[d1mitri]

...you will have been repeating high xp quests such as deleras, stormcleave, gwylans, tear, xorian cypher and so on.

Now comes the favor grind. ...you'll be able to blow through the early favor that you missed on your way up...

At the same time, mix in a bit of levelling and loot running to keep you sane...

...depending on your capacity to endure the boredom of running low level stuff.

...(say 6 hours per day).

The parts that are not cut out is the reason why it is such a bad idea not to let people buy it, or come up with such a stupid reward system in the first place.

Good advice though, just that I'm not gonna do it.

[Avonwey]

The most fascinating thing to me about this conversation is the lack of commentary of what is BEST for the GAME/TURBINE, which to me seems to be the generation of as much revenue as quickly as possible.

By this measurement the answer is fairly obvious: make them available in the DDO store.

[Samiusbot]

The most fascinating thing to me about this conversation is the lack of commentary of what is BEST for the GAME/TURBINE, which to me seems to be the generation of as much revenue as quickly as possible.

Wouldn't the best be a large sudden influx of coin now, and a steady income of coin in the coming years?

Say everyone upgrading 28s to 32s then all the new PC's down the road that want to jump to 32's still have to pay or favor up?

Moneys now and moneys later. Sounds like the best plan to me.

But I am no moneylender.

[Emili]

Face the thruth, as soon as you have 1750 favor , you roll a 32 point character. It was for the drow when first he came in game (I remember the harbor full of drows lol). So if they let buy the drow, why not let buy 32 point? As a former euro player, I'd like to recreate my toons here (already did with drow cleric, drow bought from shop) so why I can't recreate my 32 points and I have to zerg to 1750 (I don't like too much zerging) just ot delete that char and made another, simply better?

Zerg the drow cleric for the 1750... then you have no deleting.

[Bosco]

The problem I feel with making 32 point builds available for purchase is it makes the players who have unlocked it feel less special. 1750 is a lot easier to do then back in the day when it was first released. It meant running quite a few of the raids on elite when the cap was level 12. Now those that have it, and those that struggled to achieve it feel cheated if someone can now purchase a 32 point build. But the struggle isn't really there anymore. In fact anyone with the time can basically level a toon to 20 and have 1750 favor in a few weeks. So those who think your special. Well you aren't.

Personally I don't have much of an elitist type attitude that some seem to portray in this thread. I have 32 point builds, but I don't have them across every server. I wish I did. Whether I would purchase them or not is a different story. From an economic standpoint I think it would serve Turbine well to offer players the ability to purchase 32 point builds somewhere in the neighborhood of 2200 points.

Why should other VIPs who unlocked it like to see this? Bottom line more revenue for Turbine equals more releases. Back when 1750 was introduced and Drow was introduced there were new mods coming out nearly every month and there was a healthy revenue stream coming into DDO. Then Turbine released LOTRO. DDO became the red headed stepchild. From the looks of things Turbines F2P option has brought new players in, increased its subscription based and also made more money off the F2P players buying points then from subscribers.

So how about giving the guys with the fat wallets that want to pay a break. 1750 isn't that special. Those without the time may just wish to pay to get a jumpstart and once again myself as well as everyone else with 32 point builds, we aren't that special.

[skotm]

instead of selling classes 32 points etc..
They should sell favor you can apply as a single use.

[Aesop]

I'm still in favor of Selling 32 point builds on a per server basis

600-900 TP per server.

I've earned it on 4 servers I think and don't really feel like doing it again on Cannith... I just want to play and not worry about it.

Why other people should care is beyond me.

Veterans had to earn it... so. You got the reward and didn't have to spend money on it ... congrats. You also got a +2 Tome.

Aesop

[Stormanne]

I look at it this way. It's probably going to happen. The best case scenario for it, since it will eventually happen, is that they put it up for sale at the same time they put a mechanic in place to upgrade the existing 28 point builds to 32s. I think that to do one without the other is going to be completely disrespectful of both groups.

[Aesop]

I look at it this way. It's probably going to happen. The best case scenario for it, since it will eventually happen, is that they put it up for sale at the same time they put a mechanic in place to upgrade the existing 28 point builds to 32s. I think that to do one without the other is going to be completely disrespectful of both groups.

That would be best I think

Aesop