Still no 32 point build in the shop?

[miceelf88]

The 32/28 point disparity is not a big deal.

Removing one of the main motivators to pursue favor, potentially shortening the average playable half-life of the game for many potential users, while at the same time violating the ethos of the f2p general approach (that what you can buy in the store would be mainly conveniences, not things that materially change characters) is potentially a bigger deal. Particularly if they do so in response to what appear to be pretty gross misunderstandings about the actual disparity. And, if doing so in response to these misunderstandings further reinforces them, thus making those who REALLY want F2P more shunned than they sometimes already are.

The fix is to be able to upgrade the same character that got the 1750 favor. I believe/hope they're working on that.

[Delt]

If it is such a minor deal, why are y'all digging in your heels and refusing to budge?

Because it is stupid in a lot of peoples opinion (including mine) to offer anything and everything via the store. Faction rewards are achieved by actually playing the **** game...if those are fair game for the store, they might as well stick crafting ingrediants, raid loot, +4 tomes and cleansing stones to the store and be done with it.

[eonfreon]

The 32/28 point disparity is not a big deal.

Removing one of the main motivators to pursue favor, potentially shortening the average playable half-life of the game for many potential users, while at the same time violating the ethos of the f2p general approach (that what you can buy in the store would be mainly conveniences, not things that materially change characters) is potentially a bigger deal. Particularly if they do so in response to what appear to be pretty gross misunderstandings about the actual disparity. And, if doing so in response to these misunderstandings further reinforces them, thus making those who REALLY want F2P more shunned than they sometimes already are.

The fix is to be able to upgrade the same character that got the 1750 favor. I believe/hope they're working on that.

I completely agree with you. Especially that the point disparity is not a big deal. What is a big deal is rerolling to take advantage of a favor reward in the first place. If it had been a bigger deal and had been even more favor then it might have influenced the way I play, who knows.

Really what I don't like is that Favor is tied into this to be such a big deal. If they didn't have an alternative by using TP to eanr FvS for instance I would not be able to play one until I concentrated on Favor again. What's the point of that? After months of waiting for new things to be introduced I would be required to "unlock" a new class? That wouldn't have been very cool. And the fact that Turbine finally gave me the TP they said they would I can finally roll a 32 point FvS on 2 servers. At least I can use TP to unlock FvS on all servers. IF I went for the favor I would have to earn it per server. That's even crazy. 32 point is fine that I have to re-earn the darn thing, although I think that's foolish too and it was highlighted by the fact you could pay to transfer a character and circumvent the favor requiremnts for that server.

Making it so that 28 points are upgradeable will certainly satisfy the complete-ist in me. But my paying my monthly gaming fee and earning my TP to unlock things I don't have time or desire to unlock can be made so that it's fair and fun. How about the little thing that someone who earns 1750 on 2 servers can earn enough points to unlock on a 3rd server.

Or is that unfair to those who've unlocked 1750 on 3 servers already?
I certainly draw the line at having to pay extra to play but some things need to be rethought. There is little reason that someone can earn 32 point in different ways from the way we had to.

And yes I create my 28 pointers on other servers and they work **** well even without any Twink Gear or Tomes. I even start my TWF with 17 Dex- I know 17 DEX!!!!

[eonfreon]

Because it is stupid in a lot of peoples opinion (including mine) to offer anything and everything via the store. Faction rewards are achieved by actually playing the **** game...if those are fair game for the store, they might as well stick crafting ingrediants, raid loot, +4 tomes and cleansing stones to the store and be done with it.

If that's how y'all feel, that's how you feel.

I don't agree that 32 point and Drow had any relation to any other type of Favor reward. So I don't think the fact that we had to play to earn it the way we did still makes sense to apply.

And creating an alternative way to earn this thing does not mean that anything and everything will be offered by the store.

I suppose anything can happen. But thinking in extremes will make it hard to judge actual practical applications.

[Aesop]

If that's how y'all feel, that's how you feel.

I don't agree that 32 point and Drow had any relation to any other type of Favor reward. So I don't think the fact that we had to play to earn it the way we did still makes sense to apply.

And creating an alternative way to earn this thing does not mean that anything and everything will be offered by the store.

I suppose anything can happen. But thinking in extremes will make it hard to judge actual practical applications.

/signed

Aesop

[Delt]

And creating an alternative way to earn this thing does not mean that anything and everything will be offered by the store.

I suppose anything can happen. But thinking in extremes will make it hard to judge actual practical applications.

I'm not offering a slippery slope arguement - I'm saying the practice would be stupid on principal and alienate more players than it would please.

It's an ingame reward based on playing through game content and ranking up an ingame faction system. You might not like the 32pt build as a favor reward (it is essentially a stackable +1-4 tome for every new character), but that's a different arguement.

DDO as it exists isn't exactly chalked full of achievements or goals (Gear and favor is about all we got, combined with rolling new builds). Taking one of the few goals out and making it available for a quick cash grab is idiotic, dilutes the game and sets a bad precident to boot (there is your slippery slope arguement).

Really, it's no different than SWG offer jedi for cash or WoW offering PVP rewards for cash. It takes away from the game and would justifiably **** off a lot of people...and why? To satisfy a few clueless noobs and some lazy casual vets? Not worth it.

[miceelf88]

It seems most equivalent to Wow offering up death knights for cash.

(I'll also point out that the character that reaches the requisite level doesn't become a death knight AFAIK).

[Aesop]

I'm not offering a slippery slope arguement - I'm saying the practice would be stupid on principal and alienate more players than it would please.

It's an ingame reward based on playing through game content and ranking up an ingame faction system. You might not like the 32pt build as a favor reward (it is essentially a stackable +1-4 tome for every new character), but that's a different arguement.

DDO as it exists isn't exactly chalked full of achievements or goals (Gear and favor is about all we got, combined with rolling new builds). Taking one of the few goals out and making it available for a quick cash grab is idiotic, dilutes the game and sets a bad precident to boot (there is your slippery slope arguement).

Really, it's no different than SWG offer jedi for cash or WoW offering PVP rewards for cash. It takes away from the game and would justifiably **** off a lot of people...and why? To satisfy a few clueless noobs and some lazy casual vets? Not worth it.

Wow... you actually pushed it over the limit.

Tell you what you can play the characters on the other 2 servers that I'm on to get 1750 favor... then you can rebuild those characters all the way back up as 32 point builds.

Then you can grind away (something I hate doing because it bores the hell out of me) and get the Raid items.

Not a single person is suggesting that Raid gear be added to the Store. The fact that you go straight there is a classic ******** slippery slope arguement and you **** well know it. No One is taking your favor grind away they are asking for better options. So as the anti-purchase camp is fond of saying. Quit Crying

Aesop

[zedorf]

DDO as it exists isn't exactly chalked full of achievements or goals (Gear and favor is about all we got, combined with rolling new builds). Taking one of the few goals out and making it available for a quick cash grab is idiotic, dilutes the game and sets a bad precident to boot (there is your slippery slope arguement).

I would respect your opinion if you were just as strongly opposing character respec. Wouldn't you just say people are too lazy to re-roll? What about the AP reset we already have? You were opposed that as well? Lazy darn gamers who just can't reroll?

[Delt]

Wow... you actually pushed it over the limit.

Tell you what you can play the characters on the other 2 servers that I'm on to get 1750 favor... then you can rebuild those characters all the way back up as 32 point builds.

Then you can grind away (something I hate doing because it bores the hell out of me) and get the Raid items.

Not a single person is suggesting that Raid gear be added to the Store. The fact that you go straight there is a classic ******** slippery slope arguement and you **** well know it. No One is taking your favor grind away they are asking for better options. So as the anti-purchase camp is fond of saying. Quit Crying

Aesop

Pssst, hey noob vet. I am not saying they will, I am saying they might as well as it amounts to the same **** thing. The fact that I have to clarify that a second time speaks loads to your ability to comprehend.

Speaking of not comprehending, if you want to unlock 1750 on a different server, transfer an existing toon to that new server. Problem solved, assuming you've done it once, "founder".

I would respect your opinion if you were just as strongly opposing character respec. Wouldn't you just say people are too lazy to re-roll? What about the AP reset we already have? You opposed that as well? Lazy darn gamers who just can't reroll?

Why is that? Neither have anything to do with the other. Turbine has changed many things over the years, invalidating many build choices. We are long overdue for a respec option.

[ahpook]

It's an ingame reward based on playing through game content and ranking up an ingame faction system. You might not like the 32pt build as a favor reward (it is essentially a stackable +1-4 tome for every new character), but that's a different arguement.

DDO as it exists isn't exactly chalked full of achievements or goals (Gear and favor is about all we got, combined with rolling new builds). Taking one of the few goals out and making it available for a quick cash grab is idiotic, dilutes the game and sets a bad precident to boot (there is your slippery slope arguement).

I would agree with this. Buying favor rewards in the DDO store is completely asinine.

I would also like to list as asinine the granting of account based rewards (such as drow, FvS, and 32 pt builds) to character based favor. Remove those items from the favor system and then you are free to sell them in the store. Problem solved for all.

[eonfreon]

I'm not offering a slippery slope arguement - I'm saying the practice would be stupid on principal and alienate more players than it would please.

It's an ingame reward based on playing through game content and ranking up an ingame faction system. You might not like the 32pt build as a favor reward (it is essentially a stackable +1-4 tome for every new character), but that's a different arguement.

DDO as it exists isn't exactly chalked full of achievements or goals (Gear and favor is about all we got, combined with rolling new builds). Taking one of the few goals out and making it available for a quick cash grab is idiotic, dilutes the game and sets a bad precident to boot (there is your slippery slope arguement).

Really, it's no different than SWG offer jedi for cash or WoW offering PVP rewards for cash. It takes away from the game and would justifiably **** off a lot of people...and why? To satisfy a few clueless noobs and some lazy casual vets? Not worth it.

Okay you don't see that the argument "if they do this it will be the allowance of all this other stuff that can be bad" as being a "slippery slope" argument then let's ignore that.

So it isn't a matter of achievement then is it? I've learned the game the right way. I played my 28 pointers and got 1750 Favor. I've earned it and I've earned it again. But if I'm tired of earning it then I'm "a lazy vet".

Let me tell you what I think. I think making Drow a 400 Favor, 32 a 1750 Favor, and FvS 2500 Favor continuously is a stupid idea. It was implemented in a slapped on method because of when it was implemented and why it was implemented. It was created as a reason to play in it's time. It no longer has that function. Luckily it doesn't affect my game, so far I've had a great time. The store is such a non-issue to me because I don't play with any need for it.

But I can tell you I would have been super annoyed that the old promise of "Free Updates" had turned into 2500 Favor for FvS if they hadn't given an alternative with TPs.

And no, if they don't add raid gear to the store adding 32 points does not amount to the same **** thing. It amounts to a different thing that you have decided amounts to the same thing.

[Delt]

I would agree with this. Buying favor rewards in the DDO store is completely asinine.

I would also like to list as asinine the granting of account based rewards (such as drow, FvS, and 32 pt builds) to character based favor. Remove those items from the favor system and then you are free to sell them in the store. Problem solved for all.

I'd agree with that...at least the 32point portion (I don't mind the drow/FVS unlocks - but it would be nice to have more npc dialog or story to actually justify it in game). The whole 32 point system is dumb and they added it because DDO was short content aside from rolling new toons.

It is what it is though, seems unlikely to change.

[eonfreon]

I would agree with this. Buying favor rewards in the DDO store is completely asinine.

I would also like to list as asinine the granting of account based rewards (such as drow, FvS, and 32 pt builds) to character based favor. Remove those items from the favor system and then you are free to sell them in the store. Problem solved for all.

/Signed

[Cyr]

Pssst, hey noob vet. I am not saying they will, I am saying they might as well as it amounts to the same **** thing. The fact that I have to clarify that a second time speaks loads to your ability to comprehend.

Speaking of not comprehending, if you want to unlock 1750 on a different server, transfer an existing toon to that new server. Problem solved, assuming you've done it once, "founder".



Why is that? Neither have anything to do with the other. Turbine has changed many things over the years, invalidating many build choices. We are long overdue for a respec option.

Why in the world would advocating paying money to transfer an existing toon to another server make your argument stronger? It just sounds like another way of doing exactly what people are asking for...buying 32 point builds in the store. I've only deleted about a half dozen 1750+ favor toons and have another eight on the same server. Yet, having to transfer a toon for money as a work around seems pretty moronic to me when they can just put them up in the store in the first place...make more money and no one gets hurt by it. Every vet could make VIP toons on their main server for a very long time now. You MIGHT have a few 28 point toons left over, but hopefully the full respec will allow you to update them to 32 point toons too. The 32 point build as part of favor was one of the worst design decisions made in this game (and that says a lot). New players have joined the game and quit once they realize their first favorite toon has NO possibility to be the best that they could be.

[Delt]

And no, if they don't add raid gear to the store adding 32 points does not amount to the same **** thing. It amounts to a different thing that you have decided amounts to the same thing.

I disagree with you. Just because you want to believe it's different doesn't mean it is (see what I did there?). I've run titan 200+ times all counted. You add up the time investment, it's more significant than running favor.

I'm going to get the chattering ring eventually anyway, I've gotten it before, why force me to run through the hoops? Simply add it to the store -- me buying it doesn't affect your game, now does it?

....

Why in the world would advocating paying money to transfer an existing toon to another server make your argument stronger? It just sounds like another way of doing exactly what people are asking for...buying 32 point builds in the store.

Because you unlocked it. You played the game and you earned your reward. I'd argue that yes, having that particular workaround is silly, but it exists. A better option would be if 1750 unlocked 32pt builds on all servers. An even better option would be if the 32pt build never existed. Neither of those are currently the case, so the only question remains whether I want those rewards offered on the store. I say no, for reasons I already laid out.

[krud]

All other rewards benefit the specific character, with the exception of the favor unlocks. These do nothing for the character. If 28/32 difference is so insignificant, then why is it so hard to make it available for purchase? Favored soul is 2500 for cryin' out loud. There is no big stink over FvS being available in the store. Why is that? The favor grind for that is MUCH harder than 1750. Why is the 32pt build held so high on a pedestal if it is so insignificant? *hint*- because maybe it really does matter. (hardly anybody grinds for a reward that's insignificant)

There have been many good suggestions in the past on how to make 32pt buys work in the store, and rework the favor system to be more character specific.

-only make one 32pt character slot purchaseable at a time.
-keep 1750 to unlock all slots.
-free character respec at 1750
-+3 tome.

if the reward at 1750 were even better for the specific charcater, it should make 1750 even sweeter, and would relegate the "insignificant" 32pt reward to a more appropriate place.

[rezo]

God talk about so lazy people, " I must have a 32pt. build because I can't spend time to run favor." or " I want the e-z button because Turbine made it so to buy drow and FVS." Ok, can we just paid Turbine to get XP, because " I'm to lazy to run a play a toon and I want to run high quest once in awhile." God stop cry about "it to much work" and start playing the game. My high toon only have 1545 favor and I've been play for 3 years now I think. I'm not crying about not having 32pt. build so, shut up and play the game will you.

[eonfreon]

I disagree with you. Just because you want to believe it's different doesn't mean it is (see what I did there?). I've run titan 200+ times all counted. You add up the time investment, it's more significant than running favor.

I'm going to get the chattering ring eventually anyway, I've gotten it before, why force me to run through the hoops? Simply add it to the store -- me buying it doesn't affect your game, now does it?

....

I disagree because of the very nature of the Favor unlock. It just doesn't make sense. And your Titan runs, so what? I got my chattering ring, why I would care when you get yours is beyond me. And our characters can both benefit by that re-running the quest. The character that gets the first 1750 can't benefit from it.
I don't know how you can equate one to the other. I guess that's why we disagree.

Because you unlocked it. You played the game and you earned your reward. I'd argue that yes, having that particular workaround is silly, but it exists. A better option would be if 1750 unlocked 32pt builds on all servers. An even better option would be if the 32pt build never existed. Neither of those are currently the case, so the only question remains whether I want those rewards offered on the store. I say no, for reasons I already laid out.

Fair enough. And I say yes, for reasons I laid out. I have no problem with you having your way, like it currently is, but I wish you hinged on something more then "we need to keep our old accomplishments intact or they will be for naught" or "if they change this thing then it will lead to other changed and then everything is doomed".

[eonfreon]

God talk about so lazy people, " I must have a 32pt. build because I can't spend time to run favor." or " I want the e-z button because Turbine made it so to buy drow and FVS." Ok, can we just paid Turbine to get XP, because " I'm to lazy to run a play a toon and I want to run high quest once in awhile." God stop cry about "it to much work" and start playing the game. My high toon only have 1545 favor and I've been play for 3 years now I think. I'm not crying about not having 32pt. build so, shut up and play the game will you.

Pfft I have 1750 on two servers. Slacker.
And I started 6 months after you.