Still no 32 point build in the shop?

[miceelf88]

I think what a lot of people don't get is that the difference between 28 and 32 point builds is pretty minor. "kick more butt" isn't even a question.

When one reaches 1750, one unlocks 32 point builds and gets a free +2 tome to the attribute of one's choice. Now, the +2 tome is actually usually more of a bump to stats than the 4 point jump from 28 to 32. (if you put it onto a stat that started at 18 or 19, it would actually be the equivalent of a 6 point boost). If you got the +2 tome for a dump stat, well, that would be a little different, but most peole wouldn't do that.

how rare are such tomes? For the casual players, very rare indeed. My char is level 17 now, was capped at 16 for a long time, but haven't had a chance to play it since the mod. Been playing for several years. Multiple raids. (I think a total of 30 something times in the reaver, I have all the ingredients for shroud crafting, about a dozen or so trips through there, etc.). In that time, other than the +2 tome, I've pulled a +1 tome to a dump stat (was worth more to me to sell) and a +1 tome in a non-dump stat. So, it's pretty uncommon unless one spends a lot of time at the higher level content (which some players do, and those players will find tomes to be pretty common). So the free +2 tome doesn't mean your character is exactly equivalent to all the other characters (because a very small set of players will have a lot of tomes available to them). But it makes it equivalent to 95% at least of other characters and better than most 32 point builds whose players don't have tomes.

I think a big part of the problem is that the world has outgrown the 1750 favor reward and the +2 tome. At the time they did it, tomes were VERY rare. My vote would be that the 1750 favor reward would be unlocking 32 point builds in general AND/OR a free respec of the character up to 32 point build (I actually don't care much about unlocking 32 points for new characters, provided that characters can eventually be respecced up to 32 point. AND the additional bonus should be something that stacks with tomes. (a +1 legendary bonus to a stat of one's choice, for example). That would make favor more valuable, in that it couldn't be eclipsed by tomes, and would also solve the "my character will never be as good as yours could ever be" problem.

I think the solutions are really:
1. A mechanism to respec current 28 point builds up to 32, unlockable at 1750 for that character only.
2. An additional reason to get to 1750 that is better/different than tomes which are still rare, but more common than they were when this came out. (my suggestion would be a stackable +1 bonus to a stat, but there could be a host of other ideas).

(I'd also prefer, if both of these are met that the "unlocking 32 point builds across the board" mechanism be done away with, and make it a reward per-character, not per-account. But this isn't a strong preference.

The big issue is #1. If this were available, there'd be NO issue with the unlocking thing, IMHO. Apparently, it's tough programming wise. But that's why we pay them the big bucks. I honestly believe that this is the best solution to keep both camps happy.

yes, they want to make money. But they also don't want us to burn out on the game very quickly, which is always the danger of taking stuff that people have to work for and make it buyable: 1. it runs the risk of making the game boring and not played for as long, because once you have everything, what's left to accomplish? and 2. it runs the risk of giving the perception that the way to have better characters is to spend money, which makes the "f2p" claims kind of a joke. Both of those things are long term threats to making money and have to be balanced with the short term gains of selling stuff in the store.

In the meantime, technically, yes, your 28 point build with the +2 tome is better off than a 32 point without the tome, but not quite as good as the 32 poitn with the tome. And yes, tomes can be gotten in other ways. But it's quite rare, as a proportion of characters in the game.
there's also a threshold effect. When people say it doesn't really gimp your character, what they mean is that no one but you is ever likely to know, based on results, whether you have a 28 point or 32 point build. if you are a skilled player with a decent build (and with a decent group), you'll beat most dungeons most of the time. And if you are either unskilled or have a crappy build, you'll be much more than 4 points away from beating most dungeons most of the time.

In most cases, in DDO, the outcomes are binary. You either complete the quest and get the loot and xp, or you don't. having a solid build, but being a little better because you have a 32 point build is kind of like being a little more pregnant. Once you're past the threshold, more/less isn't much of an issue.

[Thrudh]

I consider Turbine's policy regarding 32 point builds to be "unfair", despite posts to the contrary - such as the above.

A 28 point build character is inherently disadvantaged relative to a 32 point character - whether or not the term "gimped" is used (the term is very appropriate, imo). Statements to the effect that a 28-point character is not "gimped" are either nonsense or arguments over terminology.

Asking a player to either "live with" a 28-point character or "earn" points or "favor" prior to creating a "real" character is absurd.

It is quite reasonable to reward long-term customers in some financial manner (e.g., giving them advantages that new customers must pay $ for).

However, the current policy is extremely ill conceived.

I have no interest in spending time on a "throw away" character, so that I can create my "real" one.

Suppose I have only an hour or two to play per week.

It is as if Turbine went out of their way to implement a policy turning that hour or two into work, rather than fun.

I could spend weeks or months "earning" the "right" to create my "real" character (any enjoyment of the task greatly minimized by my knowledge that I am playing a "throw away" character).

Once I finally created my "real" character, my enjoyment of playing him would be diminished by my foreknowledge of dungeon content (acquired during "fore play", prior to creation of the real character).

The joy and fun of encountering the unknown with a character I am "into" (who in a sense, "is me") is eliminated.

Even were I able to play only an hour or two per week, such time could be very enjoyable were I to have a sense of progress and adventure. It's fun acquiring a new spell or ability, but much less doing so with a character having an NPC "feel" - worse, an NPC that will disappear from play.

The issue is exacerbated for me by the fact that I really like to take time to "smell the roses". I am not into power-gaming. I am certainly not into running through a dungeon as quickly as possible to gain XP. I also enjoy soloing and duoing. This play style would further increase the time needed before "real" play could begin. And how much fun would it be to "smell the roses" with a disposable character? Or to power-play the disposable character, further intensifying the "task like" feel of earning "favor" - due to utilizing a play-style that I dislike.

The policy is so unfair and ill-considered that I have lost interest in DnD online -without even finishing the character creation process (and despite my yearning for a good MMORPG). I was unable to enjoy creating a character, knowing that he would be gimped and "throw away". Never before had I experienced lack of enthusiasm during character creation.

The policy is supported by people who A) have lots of time on their hands and/or have already "earned" the ability to create 32-point builds and B) have no interest in fairness - only in what benefits them (please - refrain from babbling about having "earned" the right to create non-gimped characters).

I consider myself ripped-off**. I would not have thought that such an absurd policy would even be considered by any company - or tolerated by customers (other than young kids).

I intend to steer clear of anything with the Turbine label.


** I spent $24 on optional features prior to creating my first character - then learned of this ridiculous policy minutes later.

Although you make good points and I agree that Turbine made a bad decision with the 32-point character mechanic....

I just want to point out that a 28 point character is NOT a throw-away... It can be your "real" character... It was for all of us... Most of us vets still have our original 28 point characters... Mine is a dwarf cleric.

My wisdom is as high as any 32 point character. My spells hit just as hard, I heal just as well... I could not make him any better at casting or healing.

I have 20 less hit points than I could have... that's it.. Instead of 470 hps, I only have 450 hps... Or maybe I could have +1 to hit and damage. I carry a big axe and do plenty of damage. No problems hitting, so maybe instead of averaging 50 points of damage a hit, I could do 51...

If that 2% less damage would actually bother you as you played, then yes you shouldn't play this game (or any MMO). Each Mod changes the game play mechanics. A "perfect" character in Mod 4 will not be "perfect" in Mod 7.

All that said, I vote for Turbine to make 32 point characters available in the store, but know that a 28 point character is 99% as good as a 32 point character...

[marshm1972]

At issue is what brings in revenue to Turbine. If they make money selling 32pt builds good for them. That means they can use those funds not to keep the game going, but to pay for all the future "goodies" they have planned. Member DDO doesnt have the fanbase of LOTRO, so they need to make the extra $$$ where they can.

[Thrudh]

The reality is that your 28 point characters would kick MORE butt if they were 32 point ones. 32 > 28

That is not true....

Are you not reading the replies??

A 28 point character can have the same MAX primary stat as a 32 point character...

Two wizards, one 28-point, one 32-point... Both can start with 18 INT. Both get the same gear... The 28-point character's spells will land EXACTLY as often as the 32-point character... Kicking butt will be exactly the same.

You know what the 32-point character will have? Maybe +2 will save, or 20 more hps at end-game. These are nice, but barely noticable.

The place where 32-points matters is complicated multi-class builds... because then you may have 2-3 "primary" stats. New players shouldn't even try those builds until they've played the game for a while (and gotten close to 1750 favor!), because it's easy to make a mistake and gimp a complicated multi-class build...

[WolfSpirit]

Why do people keep peddling this line? No one asking for 32pt builds to be buyable is asking for an 'easy' button. Grinding 1750 favor is not hard, its time consuming.
Time consuming & Obstacles = Goal

The goals in this game are varied: some people like to play the quests with other people and enjoy the experience; some like to solo the quests as a personal challenge; others like to raid at the end-game and build up lots of phat loot that gives them braggging right.

People brag about the stupidest things.

The problem with 32pt builds is that they are not really a goal, they are more like an obstacle. No one really brags about having 32pt builds. Even on cannith recently, when the first people got 32pt builds, it wasn't the fact that they could build new toons with 32pts that they were bragging about, it was more the fact that they were the first to get to that level of favor on the server.

I don't know of a goal worth Achieving that is not filled with Obstacles



I know its a long road to get 32pt builds. And when I didn't have it (I hate grinding out favor) I wished that there were some easier way to get it. It took me just over a year to get it because I dislike grinding so much. But once I did, I felt a sense of accomplishment and I would have it no other way. It doesn't matter how you color it, or how you justifiy it. Being able to buy something like this is pressing the easy button. It IS looking for an easier way to get the same benifit that everyone else has had to work for.

The place where 32-points matters is complicated multi-class builds... because then you may have 2-3 "primary" stats. New players shouldn't even try those builds until they've played the game for a while (and gotten close to 1750 favor!), because it's easy to make a mistake and gimp a complicated multi-class build...

-
Excellent Point!
And well thought out post, +1

[Avonwey]

Two wizards, one 28-point, one 32-point... Both can start with 18 INT. Both get the same gear... The 28-point character's spells will land EXACTLY as often as the 32-point character... Kicking butt will be exactly the same.

You know what the 32-point character will have? Maybe +2 will save, or 20 more hps at end-game. These are nice, but barely noticable.

The place where 32-points matters is complicated multi-class builds... because then you may have 2-3 "primary" stats. New players shouldn't even try those builds until they've played the game for a while (and gotten close to 1750 favor!), because it's easy to make a mistake and gimp a complicated multi-class build...

If one character has +2 will save over an otherwise identical character, then the one with +2 will save will kick more butt. That's a fact, jack.

And given the choice between an 8 and 12 in my Barb's wisdom score, I would gladly take the 12 thank you. Who in their right mind would want to play a character with -2 will saves?

And to your point about "32 point builds are too sophisticated for new players" - well many veterans like me want to purchase 32 point builds, and I know where to allocate my points thanks.

[WolfSpirit]

If one character has +2 will save over an otherwise identical character, then the one with +2 will save will kick more butt. That's a fact, jack..

Huh?
If you think that +2 will save is going to enable you to "Kick more butt"... I just don't know what to tell you. Your view of "Butt Kicking" is a bit off. That means that you are going to make a will save, when required, when rolling 2 points more on D20 than the other wiz. Hardly Significant. CERTAINLY not enough to argue the value of.
Is it desirable? Yes.
Significant?
I wouldn't say so.

[Avonwey]

Huh?
If you think that +2 will save is going to enable you to "Kick more butt"... I just don't know what to tell you. Your view of "Butt Kicking" is a bit off. That means that you are going to make a will save, when required, when rolling 2 points more on D20 than the other wiz. Hardly Significant. CERTAINLY not enough to argue the value of.
Is it desirable? Yes.
Significant?
Hardly.

Couldn't disagree with you more. Just because YOU think its insignificant does not make it so. I know, we could test this by creating a stackable +2 will save item in the game as a quest reward, and see how many people rush to complete the quest. An awful lot I'd imagine.

[miceelf88]

Huh?

I just don't know what to say.

It's the kind of fundamental thing that there's really no answer to.

Will saves are primary for wizzies. They're going to have better will saves than most other classes to begin with. And how often do wizzies make will saves? Fear, I guess? And if you're not a will primary class, you're going to want points in either con if it isn't max or str/dex, depending on whether you're finesse or str based.

I mean geez. It's like saying that 42 inch pecs will make you kick more butt as an accountant. I suppose I could come up with a creative story in which this kind of statement makes sense, but it's going to be an exercise in fiction.

I can relate to the perceived unfairness. And I agree that 1750 should allow a respec.

But this notion that 32 vs. 28 is more kick butt in any real world way beyond +20 hp at level 20, or +1 will save at 20 is just silly.

(BTW, a +2 to will save would mean bumping wis 4 points, which would mean putting all your points into wis and having started with a low wis. Why anyone would do this rather than put more points into con, as a wizzie, is beyond me. And the + to will saves item? not going to be nearly as popular as things that add directly to damage done, dc of spells, or for tanks and the like hp/ac).

[moonprophet]

Hope there is NEVER a 32 point build in the shop. Some things should be earned. Not everything should be available for purchase.

[WolfSpirit]

Couldn't disagree with you more. Just because YOU think its insignificant does not make it so. I know, we could test this by creating a stackable +2 will save item in the game as a quest reward, and see how many people rush to complete the quest. An awful lot I'd imagine.

Wouldn't be me, I can't imagine any slot on my character that I would change anything to make such an insignificant change would be worthwile.
But Its ok if you do, i do understand that you value it more than I.
-

And to your point about "32 point builds are too sophisticated for new players" - well many veterans like me want to purchase 32 point builds, and I know where to allocate my points thanks.

And though this may not apply to you directly, it carries weight for people who come into the game a week ago and wants to make a 6Pal6monk8cleric, and feels that with the SUPER 32Pt build available in the store its a viable build. You MUST see the point there yes?
I know its frustrating to get it done. I feel for you, I really do.

[Avonwey]

Will saves are primary for wizzies. They're going to have better will saves than most other classes to begin with. And how often do wizzies make will saves? Fear, I guess? And if you're not a will primary class, you're going to want points in either con if it isn't max or str/dex, depending on whether you're finesse or str based.

Except I play a Barbarian.

[moonprophet]

And though this may not apply to you directly, it carries weight for people who come into the game a week ago and wants to make a 6Pal6monk8cleric, and feels that with the SUPER 32Pt build available in the store its a viable build. You MUST see the point there yes?
I know its frustrating to get it done. I feel for you, I really do.

Good luck playing/building a viable 6pal6mopn8cleric in this game with only a week experience. The time it takes to unlock the 32 point build will give the player the game experieince necessary (maybe) to BEGIN looking at and playing a complex triple class build like this. And perhaps even enough experience to realize thatthis build is likely a trainwreck waiting to happen. Again, some things are better earned.

[WolfSpirit]

Good luck playing/building a viable 6pal6mopn8cleric in this game with only a week experience. The time it takes to unlock the 32 point build will give the player the game experieince necessary (maybe) to BEGIN looking at and playing a complex triple class build like this. And perhaps even enough experience to realize thatthis build is likely a trainwreck waiting to happen. Again, some things are better earned.

Precisely. That, combined with the fact that you are from Upstate New York State wins you the Coveted +1 to your Rep! Which is significant in its insignificance!

[miceelf88]

Yeah, I saw that. I was running with THrud's example.

But, really, you'd bump your barb's wis by 4 rather than his con or str by 2? All to get +2 to will saves? assuming you're bumping your wis from 8 to 12, that means you're bumping your save bonus from +5 to +7 (9 to 11 raged, and 11 to 13 vs. enchantments) at end game. You can get exactly the same effect for 3 AP (barbarian willoower, which I am sure by your logic is the most popular barb enhancement ever).

I guess it will add 10% to your likelihood of avoiding being held or feared (assuming no one's cast FOM on you in the case of hold-heavy mods, or remove fear on fear-heavy mods). Those are big assumptions. So, yes, if a 2/20 greater chance of avoiding something that can be avoided with proper pre makes you more kick a$$, then yes, I suppose that it would be kick a$$.

But I find it hard to believe that most barbarians look at their charcter sheets and say "**** it! If only I had a 12 wis, THEN I could kick some butt!!!"

[Avonwey]

Actually, if I had 4 more points to invest I think I'd bump my intelligence to 12 so I get an extra 2 skill points each level and put them into spot. I hate that I can't see any monsters.

[Mercules]

Couldn't disagree with you more. Just because YOU think its insignificant does not make it so. I know, we could test this by creating a stackable +2 will save item in the game as a quest reward, and see how many people rush to complete the quest. An awful lot I'd imagine.

Depends, what slot does that item take and what else does it offer? I'll bet most WIZARDS wouldn't be going after that item.

[Gum]

I meant that to indicate that while indeed Turbine should care about all their players and the feedback they get, those that play 1 hour a week are a very small group and Turbine cannot possibly cater to every minority desire. The player would also have much bigger issues to worry about, such as quests that take longer than their whole weekly game time and the huge disparity in their fellow gamers levelling speed and loot aquisition. They can't care about pleasing every individual player on a tailored basis as this would not be possible. Perhaps "can't be concerned with" would be better wording than "don't care about."

Not, as you took it to mean, that they don't care about input.

Ah gotcha. No worries. Sorry for my misinterpretation.

[Delt]

If 32 point Drow builds are disallowed, then you have a point regarding Drow. If 32 point Drow builds are permitted, you seem to have no point - whatever race is selected, a 32 point build still trumps a 28 point build.

Drow are drow, 1750 favor has zero effect on their stats. Your drow will have the same stat points as my drow. That clear enough?

Regarding tomes - I am going to make some assumptions. First, that a +2 tome allows one to permanently increase an attribute by 2 (apparently of the player's choice in the case of the "free" tome). Second, that a 4 point build differential does not necessarily translate to 4 points of total attribute difference (I am guessing that increasing an attribute is more expensive the higher it is).

Both assumptions are correct.

1) Is being given the "free" +2 tome you mentioned simply a matter of convenience?

Yes, convenience. You can receive them during the course of normal gameplay in higher level content and on 20th completions of raids (both random).

2) I reactivated an old account that I originally opened...

Let me state that I find it funny ("heehaaw!") that you aren't even vaguely aware of how the system works or what it is, yet you've seen fit to create a big rant about it, cry and quit. That seems pretty idiotic to me. That aside...

"Favor" is essentially an ingame Faction system. If you look under your quest tab, you will find a Patron section. Every quest is tied to a specific Patron. Completing a quest gains favor with the Patron. Those Patrons offer the player rewards at certain favor levels (ie: +10HP, bank & inventory slots, special merchants, etc). There is also a Total Favor. It is the total favor that unlocks Drow(400), 32pt builds and +2 tome (1750) and Favored Souls (2500).

Each quest offers favor. Elite grants the most favor. Lets say a quest is worth 8 points on normal, 12 on hard and 20 on elite. Running the quest 3 times, first normal, then hard, then elite will grant you 20 favor. If you run the quest on elite THREE times, the total favor is still only 20. Ie: only the highest applies per quest and it's not additive.

Ultimately, the bottom line question is whether a 28 point build character will have essentially the same ultimate potential as a 32 point build character. If this is the case, then my earlier comments were way off the mark and I will play.

No, you will always be those 4 creation points behind a 32 point build (unless you are a drow). In 3 years, when you are covered in +4 tomes and epic gear...maybe your max STR will be 35 instead of 36. Maybe. That's a big deal man, better quit now and avoid that whole hypothetical

Understand the system and the game before you tear your hair out. Most peoples first few characters ends up such trainwrecks anyway, they are eventually muled/deleted. If it's really a big deal for people mentally -- unlock/buy drow as your first character. Problem solved.

[Letrii]

If it is such a minor deal, why are y'all digging in your heels and refusing to budge?