Mod 9 Monk Weapon Fix?

[bobbryan2]

Monks don't need more DPS.

If we compare monks to S&B, monks have more AC, more DPS and easy (Improved) Evasion. How do you call this balanced? The only thing monk are short on, compared to S&B, is the ability to adapt well when DPS is needed but that's a different topic. No matter how you look at it, a monk with Intimidate is the best tank in the game, in he can keep aggro.

Why would you compare them to S&B?

I know you like S&B, but few people really play them (and fewer should).

[Borror0]

or just bring them to the same level as other builds possible.

That is mechanically not possible.

Either you can tank, or you deal as much DPS as possible, or you gain some survivability without losing a lot of DPS. Those are the options you've got. Of course it is more complex than that but it's still an accurate explanation of the options we got.

If you build a character that can't tank but with high survivability, you're not worth a slot. That's monks right now.

If you can build a character with great survivability and great DPS, you're overpwored. That's ranger/monks.

[Borror0]

Why would you compare them to S&B?

I know you like S&B, but few people really play them (and fewer should).

Many don't seem to get that the problem with monks is that they can't tank, not that they can't DPS.

If you want them to DPS, that's fine but you'll need to make sure they cannot keep their AC in the process as it will otherwise be overpowered.

[bobbryan2]

Many don't seem to get that the problem with monks is that they can't tank, not that they can't DPS.

If you want them to DPS, that's fine but you'll need to make sure they cannot keep their AC in the process as it will otherwise be overpowered.

Monks that are made to DPS don't have as good of an AC. It's already balanced. You think those str based dwarven monks are hitting the 80+ ACs?

Yes... paladins and monks both have problems in that they lack intimidate as a class skill. But that would only help those two classes tank... it still wouldn't make monks useful for a shroud run.

Tanking isn't useful for quite a few quests... most classes have a DPS mode. Monks don't.

[Borror0]

Tanking isn't useful for quite a few quests... most classes have a DPS mode. Monks don't.

Of course I agree with that but it requires a totally different fix than what everyone asks for when they talk about more DPS.

[RequiemVampie]

If not Green Steel hand wraps, then monks need more. GS rings with weapon effects for monks, although it sounds cool, kinda pointless and tedious.

Not sure if it was already mentioned or not, but even in PnP, monks have more of a variety than DDO. Monks are proficient clubs, crossbows, dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quaterstaff, sai, shurikan, siagham, and slings. The 'special' monk weapons are: kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shurikan, and siagham.
Sai & Dagger deal same damage, just different crit range and damage type.
If we use anything other than kamas, quarterstaffs, handwraps, or shurikans...we become off-center. Even though it 'says' we're proficient with something.

Even monks in movies get to use spears or swords. Why not make 'spear-fighter' a build? In Ebberon, there are the 'whirling steel monks' that are proficient with some swords. Give us katana? Or even tai-chi longswords?

[wiglin]

That is mechanically not possible.

Either you can tank, or you deal as much DPS as possible, or you gain some survivability without losing a lot of DPS. Those are the options you've got. Of course it is more complex than that but it's still an accurate explanation of the options we got.

If you can build a character with great survivability and great DPS, you're overpwored. That's ranger/monks.

That is your opinion, but classes involving paladins, rangers, rogues, fighters, and bards can all have good survivability, dps, and party support through solid buffs, intimidate with the fighter, and umd / traps for the rogue.

Rangers, Paladins, and Bards can all have good dps while playing good support roles for the party through buffs and or healing. I would like to see Monks brought to that level. Currently the dps on trash mobs is great since I can get mobs down to auto crit within seconds, but once you get to the rednamed we have no transmuting to overcome dr for many rednamed, that puts us pretty low on the dps scale, and since our buffs and healing is lackluster we do not offer much.

AC is fine
DPS as a class is fine
DPS from handwrap options is broke
Buffs and healing need a little boost.
De-Buffs should work on rednamed so dominion monks can be rolled.

Anyone who has played a ranger, bard, or current version paladin, and then roll's a monk can see what monks need to be on par with those classes.

Again the metagame may change drastically with level 20, but I doubt it. Sword n Board may become a solid tanking class with the new enhancements, but monks will never have that kind of aggro retention, so we need to be in the category of the ranger/monk, warchanter, dual wielding paladin, tempest fighter type builds.

[Borror0]

AC is fine

True.

DPS as a class is fine

Untrue. Their DPS is not fine, considering what you are saying bellow.

DPS from handwrap options is broke

Not true. It only lacks a good transmuting option.

Buffs and healing need a little boost.

I can see that happening.

De-Buffs should work on rednamed so dominion monks can be rolled.

I would not say this but I would agree that dominion monks need to be improved.

Sword n Board may become a solid tanking class with the new enhancements, but monks will never have that kind of aggro retention, so we need to be in the category of the ranger/monk, warchanter, dual wielding paladin, tempest fighter type builds.

You are pigeonholing monks into support when they could be a far more divers class.

Monks have the potential to be a tank class, a DPS class and a support class, depending on how they are built - if Turbine wants to exploit that potential (and they should for reasons I hope I won't have to explain). Just like fighters can be built as a DPS or tank, the same could be said for monks and then you could add support in the same roll.

[negative]

I don't think I saw this mentioned in the thread.

How about if an increase to monk DPS was tied to fire stance?

For that matter, why not better tie each role a monk could take to each of the stances? It seems like the stances might have been intended to do this, but the implementation of them doesn't follow through.

For instance, earth should be good for tanking, except it doesn't give you a taunt as discussed, as well as decreasing your AC. Air gives you more dex for better AC via dex, but it also gives you a great DPS boost from the speed increase, and that seems unbalaned to me. Fire gives str, and is appealing to the str based dps builds, but the extra ki is underwelming and doesn't increase dps as expected. You also take an AC penalty (which makes sense) and lower your DC on things like stunning fist (which makes less sence). Water is really the only stance that seems to have been done well imo.

[wiglin]

When I say the dps as a class is fine, I am referring to not needing any more boost to the class itself just the weapons.

IMO No transmuting handwraps means handwraps are broken.

I think we will see some nice improvements when the prestige enhancements are released, but that is not happening anytime soon. My biggest hope is we don't have to use cha for any of the abilities. Cha is the one stat monks can afford to dump, unless you dont' want CE than Int can be dumped as well, but if we are going to forced into using rings for a dps slot then we are still one slot short compared to other melee, but that is just guess work at this time.

I do not see Monk's ever having the kind of aggro retention it will take to tank. Without intimidate, and lackluster dps it isn't going to happen. The new defenderish enhancments will have great aggro retention, not just intimidate, but from the increase to hate from their damage. They will also be able to hit some very nice ac numbers and will surpass monks if built right. Monk's will not stand a chance against those builds when it comes to tanking.

I am not pigeonholding monks unto support, no more than I would pigeon hold a dps paladin or ranger to support, yet both classes can bring excellent support to the party through healing and buffs, more than a monk can bring to the table and with more dps. I just want to see monks brought to the same level. Currently they are not.

This is mostly evident in raids and against certain rednames, because monk's can tear through the quest itself if played right, but when it comes time to finish the quest or fight the final battle, we offer very little to the group dynamic.

[Borror0]

How about if an increase to monk DPS was tied to fire stance?

For that matter, why not better tie each role a monk could take to each of the stances?

I mentioned something similar in another thread but it got unnoticed.

It seems like the stances might have been intended to do this, but the implementation of them doesn't follow through.

Exactly my line of thinking.

[Borror0]

IMO No transmuting handwraps means handwraps are broken.

Of course not. Be accurate in your demands as you may be sending out the wrong signal.

If you want transmuting, as for transmuting.

My biggest hope is we don't have to use cha for any of the abilities.

Baseless fear. If the trade offs are balanced, there is nothing wrong with that.

Monk's will not stand a chance against those builds when it comes to tanking.

Truism or bad logic.

In their current implementation, of course monks will never surpass them. Ir does not mean we can't push their design in that direction.

I just want to see monks brought to the same level. Currently they are not.

Oh, so you want monks to have no support abilities, lots of DPS and lose of their current survivability? Well, state that clearly.

[wiglin]

I mentioned something similar in another thread but it got unnoticed.

Exactly my line of thinking.

I like your recommendations for earth stance.

Str based monks will not have untouchable ac, so I see no need to gimp that even more. Although I like the added damage bonus.

Leave GTWF and Wind Stance the way they are.

Turbine is not going to gimp rangers or dps paladins, so instead of gimping other classes they need to bring them to the same league.

[Borror0]

Str based monks will not have untouchable ac, so I see no need to gimp that even more. Although I like the added damage bonus.

Who told you it only was for Str monks? It's also there for dex monks, if they need more DPS but don't mind loosing AC.

Other tank classes can increase their DPS by switching from S&B to THF or TWF. Monks can't. Plus, nothing wrong with making Str monks lose more AC, is it?

Leave GTWF and Wind Stance the way they are.

If they ever want to make potent PrE, they'll most likely need to nerf wind stance.

As for GTWF, that is called balancing.

[wiglin]

My issue is this.

Well built rangers, dps paladins, tempest splashes, bards are all the total package when it comes to survivability, dps, and support. I do not see Turbine changing this, so yes I say bring monks up to that caliber. Not just monks though, Turbine has gone the way of monty haul since the beginning, that is the game we play. If they decide to nurf rangers, paladins, and bards. then sure I will follow your ideas for a more focused approach to the monk.

[Borror0]

Well built rangers, dps paladins, tempest splashes, bards are all the total package when it comes to survivability, dps, and support.

I could disprove this but it would be quite time-consuming. Instead, I will ask you to prove it.

[Gornn]

An easy fix (i assume) for the piercing issue...just reskin daggers and call 'em sianghams. They'd have to code them to monks retain their centered bonus but that should work.
s.

[wiglin]

I could disprove this but it would be quite time-consuming. Instead, I will ask you to prove it.

Nothing to prove. Just look at some of the current builds posted in their forums.

All three classes can have good dps, survivability, and support.

Rangers, Bards, and Paladins can be built with all three.

Rogues can also bring great support through umd, great dps, and good ac.

I do not see why you think to have good survivability (weather it is through ac or in the bards case self cast displacement, stoneskin, and self-healing), you have to forgo dps and vice-versa. In the current game you do not.

[Borror0]

All three classes can have good dps, survivability, and support.

Simply wrong. Prove it to me, just for rangers. Tell me how that is true.

[wiglin]

Simply wrong. Prove it to me, just for bards.

You serious?

lol

the bard you posted has all three