Max DPS TWF Build

[maddmatt70]

Interesting ...

This got me thinking about some of these builds a bit and I think I have myself convinced that a 14 Fighter / 2 Barb or 14 Fighter / 2 Rogue is actually more DPS than the MAX DPS Tempest or Barbarians discussed here.

Let's look at equivelent strength ...

Fighter 14 Barb 2: 18 (base) + 4 (levels) + 3 (tome) + 6 (item) + 3 (enhancements) + 8 (WS + GSW) + 4* (limited raged) + X* (rage stuff) = 46
Fighter 14 Rogue 2: 18 (base) + 4 (levels) + 3 (tome) + 6 (item) + 3 (enhancements) + 4* (limited raged) + X (rage stuff) + 11** (limited sneak attacking) = 49
Barbarian 14 Fighter 2: 18 (base) + 4 (levels) + 3 (tome) + 6 (item) + 1 (enhancements) + 9* (always raged) + X (rage stuff) = 41

Let's look at attack speed ...

Fighter 14 Barb 2: +30% Haste Boost (limited uses)
Fighter 14 Rogue 2: +30% Haste Boost (limited uses)
Barbarian 14 Fighter 2: +15 Haste Boost (limited uses)

And of course Crit Range with lets say Khopesh ...

Fighter 14 Barb 2: 17-20
Fighter 14 Rogue 2: 17-20
Barbarian 14 Fighter 2: 15-20* (while raged against no fortification)

At first blush these all look rather close with some having the upper hand sometimes and the others other times.

Hmmmmm? Of course against Pit Fiend Elite its the F14/B2 hands down.

for 5 20 sec bursts with a cooldown timer the fighter does more dps, but what is your point. How really practical is fighter haste boost? I use my 5 boosts on both part 4 and 5 of the shroud of course, but the fight lasts longer then that and it takes a sec for someone to activate a haste boost which is a loss sec of dps by the way as well if you have to do it in mid fight.

[stockwizard5]

Why not a 15/1 Ranger/Fighter with a 38 STR and +12 damage vs the Pit Fiend and 3 other monster types? Also have 15% Haste Boost and Tempest. I think thats hands down the best.

I have a version of this - possibly the highest against favored enemies - shroud killer for sure - but I have issues with the to-hit which hurts DPS and [NOT DPS but] survivability.

[stockwizard5]

for 5 20 sec bursts with a cooldown timer the fighter does more dps, but what is your point. How really practical is fighter haste boost? I use my 5 boosts on both part 4 and 5 of the shroud of course, but the fight lasts longer then that and it takes a sec for someone to activate a haste boost which is a loss sec of dps by the way as well if you have to do it in mid fight.

True but what happens when you also add in the higher Strength, much higher To-Hit, and consider Fortification. All togther the answer is not quite so obvious.

[Cambo]

for 5 20 sec bursts with a cooldown timer the fighter does more dps, but what is your point. How really practical is fighter haste boost? I use my 5 boosts on both part 4 and 5 of the shroud of course, but the fight lasts longer then that and it takes a sec for someone to activate a haste boost which is a loss sec of dps by the way as well if you have to do it in mid fight.

If your on auto attack and click the haste boost..do you really loose an attack (ie DPS) ?

[maddmatt70]

If your on auto attack and click the haste boost..do you really loose an attack (ie DPS) ?

If you are on auto attack you lose dps with every swing - that is just a fact irregardless of the fighter haste boost. Even if you lose dps for that sec or 2 you make that up and then some over the next 18-19 sec with an increase in 30% more attacks so it is always worth the effort to click the haste boost.

[Shade]

Hmmmmm? Of course against Pit Fiend Elite its the F14/B2 hands down.

Interesting opinion.
Perhaps you never heard of barbarian power attack or critical rage or the fact that barbarians get a higher attack bonus to allow for that increased power attack dmg. Also your str calcs are wrong, the only difference between fighter and barb is rage vs str enhancements, thats 10 str vs 3. Or 11 vs 3 if you wanna give the barb 2 fighter levels, so +8 for barb, or +4 attack +4 dmg. Ftr gets +2 attak/dmg feats, so still behind by 2 on both.

Sometimes I hear people talk about fortification, but unless its 100% it doesn't make any difference in the dps equation. 50% of fighters crits will get resisted just as often as 50% of the barbarians. The fact the barbarian has +2 crit threat range never changes, he still critical hits that much more often.

Anyways it's a moot point because the very idea of rangers or fighters tanking the pit fiend on elite is pretty ludicrous. Sounds nice on paper but in the real game I know about 20+ barbarians who have done it with little to no deaths and only 1-2 fighters. Rangers? lol. zero.

[maddmatt70]

Shade, I did a shroud elite completion run the other day with no barbarians. I was on norg and was with mav's fighter and another fighter ( deepeases) and twoheal's pally was doing some melee as well. The three fighters were in the whole time. Mav and me had a brief dying period at about 50% health of the pit fiend but the group recollected itself and the last 40% of the pit fiend's health noone died. It was an outstanding job by the clerics and the two wizards also did an excellent job of fire protecting and stoneskining the melee.

[Shade]

Grats. Yea you and mav would be the 2 I was refering too. Never heard of the other guy but good job.

[stockwizard5]

Shade - there is no reason to be insulting ... that said I disagree with all your points ... I will take just one ...

the only difference between fighter and barb is rage vs str enhancements

Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, Weapon Focus (typically), and Greater Weapon Focus for a total yield of +2/+4 which equates to +4 STR for To-Hit and +8 STR for Damage. Also Barbarians get Greater Rage for an Additonal +2 STR.

I am not certain my calculations are entirely correct but none of your points support me changing them or my thoughts specific to the Fiend elite.

[Shade]

Um if you think posting simple correct numbers is insulting, you have a problem. All im doing is pointing out some numbers to help you understand a few things.

I posted it pretty clearly but here it is again:

Barb, greater power rave IV = +10 str, possible +1 more from your 14/2 build
Ftr, Ftr str III = 3 str
11 - 3 = 8 str higher on a barb.
So +4 attack +4 dmg
Other factor you ignored: Barbarian power attack, +3 dmg -3 to hit
So Barbarian is +1 attack, +7 dmg
Ftr wep focus: +2 attack (we will say the barb never took wep focus tho he could)
Wep spec, +4 dmg
So fighter is +2 attack, +4 dmg
Both have improved crit, barb has crit rage

So in total, barbarians have +3 damage, -1 to hit and +2 critical threat range vs the fighter.

So for dps, barbarian clearly wins.

Other major factor for tanking the pit fiend is HP and DR This one needs no explanation, barbarians get a ton more hp then a fighter period.
DR5/- passive, enhancable up to DR7/-, and boosted up to DR15. The best a ftr can get is DR5/- with an item.
So for tanking, the barbarian clearly wins.

If thast not clear enough for you, sorry thats the best i can do right now.
Question wizard5: Just curious, how many times have you beated the pit fiend on elite with your fighter tanking, and what was the average completion time?

[stockwizard5]

Um if you think posting simple correct numbers is insulting, you have a problem. All im doing is pointing out some numbers to help you understand a few things.

I posted it pretty clearly but here it is again:

1. Barb, greater power rave IV = +10 str, possible +1 more from your 14/2 build - Agreed changed 9* to 10*
2. Ftr, Ftr str III = 3 str - already included
3. 11 - 3 = 8 str higher on a barb - already included
4. So +4 attack +4 dmg - already included
5. Other factor you ignored: Barbarian power attack, +3 dmg -3 to hit - Agreed and added
6. So Barbarian is +1 attack, +7 dmg - already included
7. Ftr wep focus: +2 attack (we will say the barb never took wep focus tho he could) - agreed
8. Wep spec, +4 dmg - agreed
9. So fighter is +2 attack, +4 dmg - included
10. Both have improved crit, barb has crit rage - agreed
11. So in total, barbarians have +3 damage, -1 to hit and +2 critical threat range vs the fighter. So Barbs actually have either -5/-1 with BPA or -2/-4 without.
12. So for dps, barbarian clearly wins. - Or not
13. Other major factor for tanking the pit fiend is HP and DR This one needs no explanation, barbarians get a ton more hp then a fighter period. DR5/- passive, enhancable up to DR7/-, and boosted up to DR15. The best a ftr can get is DR5/- with an item.
So for tanking, the barbarian clearly wins. - agreed on DR although WC Bard and Stoneskin do apply and we are talking DPS
14. thast not clear enough for you, sorry thats the best i can do right now. - it is not clear at all - like I said - for DPS its interesting on normal - not close on elite (that is no-claim for "MAX")
15. Question wizard5: Just curious, how many times have you beated the pit fiend on elite with your fighter tanking, and what was the average completion time? - None - "my dog has no nose" - and it doesn't change the math

Fighter 14 Barb 2: 18 (base) + 4 (levels) + 3 (tome) + 6 (item) + 3 (enhancements) + 8 (WS + GSW) + 4* (limited raged) + X* (rage stuff) = 46
Fighter 14 Rogue 2: 18 (base) + 4 (levels) + 3 (tome) + 6 (item) + 3 (enhancements) + 4* (limited raged) + X (rage stuff) + 11** (limited sneak attacking) = 49
Barbarian 14 Fighter 2: 18 (base) + 4 (levels) + 3 (tome) + 6 (item) + 1 (enhancements) + 10*[1] (always raged) + 3 [5] (barb power attack if maxed for -3 to-hit) + X (rage stuff) = 45[1][5]

So without limited effects (assume Barb 14 Rage is permanent) the Barb is -3/+1 with BPA and +0/-2 without. The fighter still gets 4m Rage and Haste Boost 1/3 of the time in exchange for the Barb's +2 Crit range (which is N/A elite). I don't see "barbarian clearly wins here" on normal and certainly not elite.

[Desteria]

Grats. Yea you and mav would be the 2 I was refering too. Never heard of the other guy but good job.

Gruf can do it 2, but ya it takes a well equiped fighter with a good stock of HP to stay up there on elite he hits like a SoB

[Shade]

15. Question wizard5: Just curious, how many times have you beated the pit fiend on elite with your fighter tanking, and what was the average completion time? - None - "my dog has no nose" - and it doesn't change the math.

Well I tried to help you and explain why your math is wrong, but I see that you cannot read and decided instead to repost your incorrect numbers. And it's pretty sad to disagree with a guy who has real experience on the subject when you yourself admit to having never done it and clearly no clue about it. Youd do better in the future to read up first, learn how the game works, and then form your opinion afterwards.

[stockwizard5]

Well I tried to help you and explain why your math is wrong, but I see that you cannot read and decided instead to repost your incorrect numbers. And it's pretty sad to disagree with a guy who has real experience on the subject when you yourself admit to having never done it and clearly no clue about it. Youd do better in the future to read up first, learn how the game works, and then form your opinion afterwards.

1. Please point out specifically which of these numbers is incorrect - just correct them for us all to see ...

Fighter 14 Barb 2: 18 (base) + 4 (levels) + 3 (tome) + 6 (item) + 3 (enhancements) + 8 (WS + GSW) + 4* (limited raged) + X* (rage stuff) = 46

Barbarian 14 Fighter 2: 18 (base) + 4 (levels) + 3 (tome) + 6 (item) + 1 (enhancements) + 10* (always raged) + 3* (barb power attack if maxed for -3 to-hit) + X* (rage stuff) = 45

2. Once again being insulting doesn't help - I assure you I was able to read and comprehend what you wrote - I simply question your conclusions.

3. I have not run shroud elite with either of these builds.

I continue to stand by this:

So without limited effects (assume Barb 14 Rage is permanent) the Barb is -3/+1 with BPA and +0/-2 without. The fighter still gets 4m Rage and Haste Boost 1/3 of the time in exchange for the Barb's +2 Crit range (which is N/A elite). I don't see "barbarian clearly wins here" on normal and certainly not elite.

I have no interest in insulting you or your "experience" - and I would appreciate if you would refrain from insulting me - I responded to each of your points and I look forward to "reading up" as you point out the specifics of my "incorrect numbers". Really - I am not 100% sure all my numbers are all correct - but if they are close then my conclusion holds.

ps: The differences between normal and elite Fiend are important for this discussion.

[juniorpfactors]

your debating math/ and game mechanics with the wrong guy shade...

jrp

[Gunga]

Well I tried to help you and explain why your math is wrong, but I see that you cannot read and decided instead to repost your incorrect numbers. And it's pretty sad to disagree with a guy who has real experience on the subject when you yourself admit to having never done it and clearly no clue about it. Youd do better in the future to read up first, learn how the game works, and then form your opinion afterwards.

Well said. The numbers make sense to me...thanks shade.

[stockwizard5]

Pure Barbarian: Power Attack, Khopesh, Tougness, TWF, ITWF, GTWF - so to make the comparison fair let's add in 2 levels of fighter for OTWF, WF, and STR +1 (Does this eliminate +1 Rage STR though?) to get back the -3 To-Hit which would kill the Barb's DPS Elite.

Barbarian To-Hit: 16 (BAB) + 5 (Weapon) + 21 (52 STR) + 12 (GH/WC) + 1 (Feats) - 2 (TWF) - 8 (PA/BPA) = +45
Fighter To-Hit: 16 (BAB) + 5 (Weapon) + 17 (44 STR) + 12 (GH/WC) + 2 (Feats) - 2 (TWF) - 5 (PA) = +45 + 2 (Rage)

For Normal Fiend DPS: F14/B2 vs B14/F2 has 5% Haste Boost, -1 Damage, -1 Crit Range
For Elite Fiend DPS: Fighter has +10%/+0% To-Hit, 5% Haste Boost, -1/-3 Damage

So I get an effective DPS (60% engagement) around ...

F14/B2 (Normal) DPS = 132.47
B14/F2 (Normal) DPS = 139.30

F14/B2 (Elite) DPS = 91.02
B14/F2 (Elite) DPS = 81.99

Interesting on Normal with the Barbarian +5% but on elite the Fighter is actually 11% better - **** that pesky AC and Fortification

Of course the Barbarian has some bonus DR (on occasion) and perhaps +100 HP so whats the point ... fully tweaked I take the Fighter for Elite runs. In reality - very few builds (Fighters or Barbs) are MAX DPS duel-weilding GS khopesh-ers and I would bet generally 95% of all Barbs out DPS 95% of all Fighters for this raid - but in theory ...

Final Thoughts: The highest DPS is actually some version of Tempest Multi-Class with FE Evil Outsiders (limiting) like Maelshorde who is too squishy (and too low to-hit) to melee consistently on elite but on normal = yikes. My next Fiend killer will be Maelsgang 14 Fighter / 2 Rogue (Sneak FTW on normal and survivable on elite)

[Tallyn]

What is his fortification on elite?

[Borror0]

Nvm.

[Tallyn]

Nvm.

Huh?