Max DPS TWF Build

[Hadrian]

Sergod, check your parameters there.

In the first one the deathnip is doing ~140 damage per second and the dwarven axe is doing ~120.

In the second one, the khopesh is doing ~140 DPS and the deathnip is doing ~120

Shouldn't the deathnip be doing the same damage in both charts?

[brshelton]

Sergod, check your parameters there.

In the first one the deathnip is doing ~140 damage per second and the dwarven axe is doing ~120.

In the second one, the khopesh is doing ~140 DPS and the deathnip is doing ~120

Shouldn't the deathnip be doing the same damage in both charts?

I feel really stupid now. I know I am but thats beside the point... lol. I will check I swore I used the EXACT same parameters as I just hit modify but I am double checking and editing my original post with the correct one thank you for that Hadrian and presenting it politely and kindly unlike certain.....others.

I found my mistake. I forgot Crit Rage on the Pick in the Khopesh one. I must've used the crit parameters from when I was running numbers for Serg.

[Shade]

First Comparison
Deathnipx2 VS Duel +4 Greater Bane Dwarven Axes with FULL Axe Enhancements and a Bloodstone

Brshelton we already went over for like 20 something posts.. Your comparison is incorrect.
Here is the one most generally agreed upon - it shows they are dead even until high AC (+4 greater bane dwarven axes vs dual deathnips, using this exactly build with a bloodstone equipped) .. vs anything resistant or imune to criticals - the dwarven axes are better, and +5 greater bane obviosuly the dwarven axes will win in any and all cases.

Your greensteel comparison is entirely invalid for several reasons
A) Holy burst is not an effect that exists for crafted greensteel weapons.
B) Your math is done incorrect, you cannot use the sneak attack field for bonus dmg, you must put it in bonus damage.
C) You aren't explaining what, if any seeker bonus the khopesh is getting.

Anyways yes you are correct khopeshs provide a little bit more DPS then dwarven axes (heavy picks are NOT). However a lvl2 upgrade greensteel khopesh does not beat a greater bane (at the moment best you can get is holy + pure good burst, with the puregood part not stacking).. A level3 upgraded khopehs probably will beat a +2/3/4 greater bane vs holy vulnerable mobs depending on its final bonus. I really doubt they will make them better then +5 greater banes thats as that will basicly invalidate a bit section of lootgen loot.

Now certainly if you have allot of khopeshs and you wish to use them, you may take the khopesh feat on this build (either lvl1 and push back each feat a few lvls, or lvl15 instead of stunning blow) However I don't think thats a wise build decision overall, as stunning blow will make a much bigger difference then an xtra 5-10% dps and you can always find better dwarven axes as you level up.

This build is the MAX TWF Dps build that in my opinion still very well designed and a great overall build. Can you get higher? Yes certainly, you could go insane with warforged power attack III, khopeshs, etc, etc - but that will be a terrible build. haha here ill even post it just to show the idea of MAX POSSIBLE ignoring everything important is NOT a good idea.

[Borror0]

I really doubt they will make them better then +5 greater banes thats as that will basicly invalidate a bit section of lootgen loot.

Shade, you mgith have heard these arguments before, but forgive me to have not read the whole 10 pages yet. +5 Grt Bane? Hw common is that? When you consider you got to have two, for each creature type, I doubt you're going to acheive that. Besides, Grt Bane while TWF? Let me doubt you'll use it much. Take the number of Greataxe you got on Axer, times two. That's what it'll take.

Then, you'll have to switch from weapon to weapon, to make sure you got the right Greater Bane... yeah. Sounds good on paper, but not that good in reality. For the little margin +5 Greater Banes will give you, clearly not worth it. Much better to have 2-3 sets of general purposes weapon IMO. Yeah, of course, a few Greater Bane for harder to kill mobs (Contructs, Undeads, etc.), but beside that, I'm more an adept of general purpose weapons, mostly on a TWF.

[Hadrian]

+5 Grt Bane? Hw common is that? When you consider you got to have two, for each creature type, I doubt you're going to acheive that.

You pretty much have to include a good UMD score to be able to do this. +4/5 greater banes are going to have requirements of 22-24 if they're race restricted, and you'll find them RR more often than not. There are a lot of them floating around out there now, but I haven't seen any that I can think of that were not RR.

[Borror0]

There are a lot of them floating around out there now, but I haven't seen any that I can think of that were not RR.

Yeah maybe, but even there you need to have double of them...

[Hadrian]

Yeah maybe, but even there you need to have double of them...

Since this build is a pure barbarian, UMD seems to be out of the question. That is where I meant to go with the reasoning.

[Borror0]

Since this build is a pure barbarian, UMD seems to be out of the question. That is where I meant to go with the reasoning.

Yeah, just pointed out that even if you're lucky, it's not enough.

[Shade]

Then, you'll have to switch from weapon to weapon, to make sure you got the right Greater Bane... yeah. Sounds good on paper, but not that good in reality. For the little margin +5 Greater Banes will give you, clearly not worth it. Much better to have 2-3 sets of general purposes weapon IMO. Yeah, of course, a few Greater Bane for harder to kill mobs (Contructs, Undeads, etc.), but beside that, I'm more an adept of general purpose weapons, mostly on a TWF.

Yea some players will prefer to keep it simple. I understand that. But thats something this build allows, its certainly flexible enough to just use a few high DPS weapons and still perform excellent. The idea that all greater banes are needed is very much wrong, its just what you need if you want to out-dps something else ultra rare that 99% of players won't get either like dual deathnips.

I mean right now i'd say trying to get at least a few sets is a good idea, namely these:
Undead - transmuting too ideally
Elemental
Giant
Construct - ideally adamant or transmuting

But right for high lvl content id say just a set of +4/5 transmuting dwarven axes would also serve anyone very well as a main dps weapon set. The other day i saw an amazing one drop too, +5 transmuting of destruction.. Like getting +10 to hit and bypassing any DR.. pretty sweet.

But personally, yea I do carry every single greater bane on my THF barbarian. I have only 1 +5 .. greater ooze bane lol (btw its not race req heh).. A few select +4s, and the rest are either +3 or +1/2 transmuting for types that have DR...
Now certainly I cannot carry all these weapons at the same time as I have a ton of clickies and all the other gear too.. So what I do is just keep a full bank slot free just for greater banes and swap between quests when necessary.. Works fine for me.

Now it will definitely be more difficult having to acquire and carry twice as many.. But I'll figure something out.

And I wouldn't call a +5 greater bane a "little margin" .. I find even a +2 will make an incredible difference versus your standard +5 holy or whatever.. Especially versus non critable monsters such as elementals, constructs and undead.

[Borror0]

And I wouldn't call a +5 greater bane a "little margin"

If you compare it to a Tier 3 Green Steel Khopesh, yeah, little margin there.

[Shade]

Maybe, but getting 2 of those.. Pretty serious time investment there, and then you end up with a situational weapon set as well.. I mean you'd go pos/pos/pos for best DPS, but only vs evil stuff with no DR or DRgood/Evil.
I mean vs the main thing you'd be spending many many many hours of farming to get, you wouldn't even use said weapon much at all.. You'd be using mainly vorpals and a holy+ silver or transmuting wep.

I think for this build if your all about the greensteel weapon, the best route is dual warhammers. Swap stunning blow for imprv crit blunt and they'd do nice dmg.

Other option is to swap stun blow for khopesh feat, but that does seem somewhat blasphemous to do on a dwarf for the sake of one weapon lol. Really not recommended.

[Tallyn]

I compared Heavy picks of all different types to Dwarven Axes of all different types. In all cases the race was Dwarf. In almost all my calculations it mattered what the AC of the target was. If it was less than 40 the Heavy Pick usually won in DPS. If it was 41 or above, the Dwarven Axe always won.

I compared Deathnips to +4 Dwarven Axes of Greater Bane (yes, I have a few) and again, the Dwarven Axes were ahead at higher ACs and a little bit lower at lower ACs.

I'll do some more calculations, but as of thus far, I believe with the Dwarven Enhancements that Dwarven Axes tend to be superior (For Dwarves) than most other weapons of the same type.

[maddmatt70]

Shade, you mgith have heard these arguments before, but forgive me to have not read the whole 10 pages yet. +5 Grt Bane? Hw common is that? When you consider you got to have two, for each creature type, I doubt you're going to acheive that. Besides, Grt Bane while TWF? Let me doubt you'll use it much. Take the number of Greataxe you got on Axer, times two. That's what it'll take.

Then, you'll have to switch from weapon to weapon, to make sure you got the right Greater Bane... yeah. Sounds good on paper, but not that good in reality. For the little margin +5 Greater Banes will give you, clearly not worth it. Much better to have 2-3 sets of general purposes weapon IMO. Yeah, of course, a few Greater Bane for harder to kill mobs (Contructs, Undeads, etc.), but beside that, I'm more an adept of general purpose weapons, mostly on a TWF.

Borror, you would be surprised. The market for dwarven war axes isn't nearly what they are for khopeshes, greataxes, and rapiers.. It is alot easier to get nice dwarven war axes then it is to get rapiers and khopeshes.. The margin of dps also is significant for a dwarf with the axe attack and axe damage. I would actually look at a +4 flaming burst of greater bane or +2 wounding of greater bane which are the best greater bane weapons I have seen thus far although I am guessing somebody has pulled a +5 flaming burst of greater bane to make my high end comparison, but +2 holy greater bane and +4 flaming greater bane seem very acessible so I would consider those in my damage calculations...

This mod has less mixed mob dungeons then the last one. The best example of a mixed mob dungeon is the litany of the dead pre-raid which was not very greater bane friendly, but the current dungeons tend to be heavy in a couple of mobs per instance which is very easy to swap around for... Really greater banes are the way to go as they do the much more dps then a general weapon such as a green steel khopesh..

[Borror0]

Norg, I see your point but my argument was more based on all the amount of Greater Banes it'd take.

Sure, they are higher DPS. Yes, Dwarven Axes are the most common weapons on the AH. However, the amount of dwarven axes needed for this is insane. You'd probably want Ghost Touch of Greater Undead Bane, Greater Undead Bane, (Transmuting if possible) Greater Contruct Bane, (Transmuting if possible) Greater Evil Outsider Bane, Greater Human Bane, Greater Giant Bane, Greater Gnolll Bane and Greater Aberation Bane... and those are only the most common, you'll probably carry more... and it's 20 weapon right there.

Shade's argument is that it's very time consuming, but it's not that bad versus the time taken to gather such an amount of Greater Banes, because as a TWFer you'll have to get two of each, gets costy. Very costy.

Of course, I'm not going to deny the DPS from a +4 Flaming Greater Bane, but... let's compare, now, with the change to Good Burst and Good Blast. I'll go asuming that, over the update to day, Good Blast has got an Holy Burst portion added to its effect.. at worse, it'll be a 3,5 margin if it's a Good Burst effect instead.

+4 Flaming Dwarven axe of Greater Bane:

5,5 Base + 15 Str + 8 PA + 2 DAD + 9 Weapon = 39,5

(39,5 + 6 Seeker)*4/20*3 + 39,5*16/20 + 3,5 Flaming + 10,5 Greater Bane = 72,9 average


+5 Holy, Good Burst, Good Blast Khopesh:

5,5 Base + 15 Str + 8 PA +5 weapon = 33,5

(33,5*3 + 14 Good Burst + 14 Good Blast + 18 Seeker)*6/20 + 14 Good Blast*1/20 + 33,5*14/20 + 3,5 Pure Good +7 Holy + 7 Good Blast = 85,6 average

(85,6-72,9)/72,9*100%= 17,4% of improvement!!

Wow, this is sick... I hope I did a mistake somewhere... I'll also compare it to a non-Holy Green Steel weapon as some mobs aren't Evil.

+5 Frost, Acid Burst, Acid Blast Khopesh:

(33,5*3 + 11 Icy Burst + 11 Icy Blast + 18 Seeker)*6/20 + 14 Icy Blast*1/20 + 33,5*14/20 + 3,5 Frost +3,5 Icy Burst + 3,5 Icy Blast = 76,8 average

(76,8-72,9)/72,9*100%= 5,3% of improvement...

Still pretty good if you take into account that you also get Crushing Wave for approximatively 240 damage every 20 swing!! So, in conclusion, the new Green Steel weapons out-DPS any RR ML 16 weapons (which +4 Flaming Greater Banes are). That is given my assumptions are right (ie Good Blast and Icy Blast now adding another Icy Burst/ Holy Burst effect on the weapon.), I hope my calculations are right.. otherwise this is sick.

Of course, I'm assuming all barbarians hit on a 2, otherwise the Greater Bane will take the lead.

Even if my calculation end up being wrong, I'd be surprised to see a wide margin between the two. For the benefit of not having to switch weapons every minute, it'd be worth it.

[maddmatt70]

+4 flaming greater banes are only level 14 weapons... I have a +4 flaming greater animal bane level 14 no rr for instance.. Level 16 rr are higher... To get all level 16 or rr level 16 greater banes is harder - that is more the +5 flaming burst of greater bane which is probably a rr level 16 weapon.. If they have a +1 loot weekend expect a higher level of greater bane in the market...

[Borror0]

+4 flaming greater banes are only level 14 weapons... I have a +4 flaming greater animal bane level 14 no rr for instance.. Level 16 rr are higher... To get all level 16 or rr level 16 greater banes is harder - that is more the +5 flaming burst of greater bane which is probably a rr level 16 weapon.. If they have a +1 loot weekend expect a higher level of greater bane in the market...

Yeah, you're right. I actually even calculated for a +5... but wrote +4 all the long.

Also, I heard Blasts don't have the 3,5 damage base. So the damage should be 72,9 for +5 Flaming Dwarven axe of Greater Bane, 78,6 for the Good Khopesh and 73,3 for the Frost Khopesh. So, the Green Steel Weapon are higher DPS and apply to a wider array of mobs.

The Holy Khopesh still represents 8,23% more DPS than a +5 Flaming Dwarven axe of Greater Bane... and apply to over 50% of the mobs in-game...

[maddmatt70]

Yeah, you're right. I actually even calculated for a +5... but wrote +4 all the long.

Also, I heard Blasts don't have the 3,5 damage base. So the damage should be 72,9 for +5 Flaming Dwarven axe of Greater Bane, 78,6 for the Good Khopesh and 73,3 for the Frost Khopesh. So, the Green Steel Weapon are higher DPS and apply to a wider array of mobs.

The Holy Khopesh still represents 8,23% more DPS than a +5 Flaming Dwarven axe of Greater Bane... and apply to over 50% of the mobs in-game...

I think your interpertation of the release notes is wrong.. My interpertation is that the blasts do a 4d6 on a natural 20 and less damage on a regular critical.. In addition you added good blast +7 at the end of your damage and I didn't think that was applied on a non crit - what is that for? There are holes in the numbers you apply and you make assumption where you need to have somebody test it out before you post conclusions at all...

What about hits and misses at different ACs i.e. real in game modeling? How about a holy greater bane (+3 or +4 in the current mod)?

[Borror0]

In addition you added good blast +7 at the end of your damage and I didn't think that was applied on a non crit - what is that for? There are holes in the numbers you apply and you make assumption where you need to have somebody test it out before you post conclusions at all...

I corrected that in the second post.

As for the assumption on Good Blast, yes I'm assuming there, but I'd find it illogical to not use the on-crit damage as the Burst. It'll take confirmation to be totally sure though.

What about hits and misses at different ACs i.e. real in game modeling?

I said it in my first post, if the two barb doesn't hit on a 2 the Greater Bane might take the lead again. I didn't feel like making a graph for it though. I can't remember the number of times I've been repeated that a barbarian hits on a 2 so...

How about a holy greater bane (+3 or +4 in the current mod)?

Right, those are missing. +4 Holy Greater Banes deal 75,8 damage on average, still worse than a +/+/+ Khopesh.

[thisgamesull]

post removed for you're own safety

[maddmatt70]

I corrected that in the second post.

As for the assumption on Good Blast, yes I'm assuming there, but I'd find it illogical to not use the on-crit damage as the Burst. It'll take confirmation to be totally sure though.



I said it in my first post, if the two barb doesn't hit on a 2 the Greater Bane might take the lead again. I didn't feel like making a graph for it though. I can't remember the number of times I've been repeated that a barbarian hits on a 2 so...



Right, those are missing. +4 Holy Greater Banes deal 75,8 damage on average, still worse than a +/+/+ Khopesh.

umm good blast +7 damage is still there at the end of the damage calculation and included in your final numbers..