Max DPS TWF Build

[Tulsa_Doom]

Theres a math response and one based on practical experience. I have tempest rangers, barbs and fighters. Those that know me Shade included would hopefully respect my opinion on melee. While there may be moments that fighters can hold their own against the pit fiend, properly equipped barbarians will overshadow them. My fighters hold their own in pit elite but the barbs truly shine. If your opinion is based purely on theoretical math I would encourage you to take it to the hilt and give it the conventional try. And I dont know who mentioned auto attack but if you are using auto attack you have a bit to learn about DPS. Not meant to be inflammatory or harsh just stating an opinion from the real deal experience. BTW Shade its funny you discount rangers when you have guys like Spyral and Twoheals in your guild. Hell my ranger has gone in melee as well. At that point its about healing not dps, dr or ac, you just happen to be blessed with some of the best on the server healing. IDK its kind of odd, I thought it has been well defined a bit ago that properly built TWF barbarians win in the all out dps category. I guess not. Thats cool, the numbers seem well thought out and that indicates a certain passion which the game is all the better for.

[Borror0]

Huh?

I posted something, then realised I made a mistake. Can't I?

[stockwizard5]

Theres a math response and one based on practical experience. If your opinion is based purely on theoretical math I would encourage you to take it to the hilt and give it the conventional try.

Those that reject practical experience are as faulty as those that reject math.

This week:

Validate DPS numbers for Fiend built Tempest TWF (check)
Validate DPS numbers for Fiend built Ranger/Rogue with Lightning II bow (anticipates)

Level-up 14F/2R TWF Fiend Melee Build (discussed last page)

[Borror0]

Theres a math response and one based on practical experience.

Yes, but the pratical experience is Shade's, so it changes many things.

Shade's a great player and he knows his stuff. Problem is, when it comes to the forums, he tends to stretch the truth and think that barbarians are the best class and no other can compare to them (except maybe sorcerers). For this reason, I've seen him:

• Laugh of warchanter bards, saying that they couldn't match his DPS.
• Laugh of fighter saying they were too squishy versus the fiend.
• Laugh of the rangers, saying they were squishy versus the fiend. (Where did Evasion go?)
• Laugh of AC tanks saying they were gimp and not fun to play.
• Say that a rogue could only do 10% of a barbarian's DPS.

And the list goes on.

No offense to Shade, but unless everyone else you group with a gimps, which seems unlikely as your guild seems to be a very strong guild, he stretches the truth. If it's intentional or not, I don't care but I take everything Shade says with a grain of salt. He tends to think his builds are more effective than they actually are. Good builds, but not the only think that can go toe to toe with the fiend, sorry Shade.

[EinarMal]

Final Thoughts: The highest DPS is actually some version of Tempest Multi-Class with FE Evil Outsiders (limiting) like Maelshorde who is too squishy (and too low to-hit) to melee consistently on elite but on normal = yikes. My next Fiend killer will be Maelsgang 14 Fighter / 2 Rogue (Sneak FTW on normal and survivable on elite)

I don't know I think a Dwarf strength based Rogue 10/Ranger 6 would give all of these builds a serious run for their money. Although the fortification thing becomes an issue for sneak attacks. You can get close to 400 hit points with improved evasion, and when you look at adding something like 31 damage per swing with sneak attack it works pretty well. You get some FE damage thrown in as well (+6) for a lot of damage per swing.

Here is my current build which is somewhat similiar to this idea (although I took 1 level of fighter for stunning blow)

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=134643

[stockwizard5]

I don't know I think a Dwarf strength based Rogue 10/Ranger 6 would give all of these builds a serious run for their money. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=134643

This build (with happy gear) should tear him up normal

Now on elite you are going to get hit every time (no ac), fail half your saving throws (29 Reflex), and with only 396 HP experience what we call "insta-death" Sorry for more bad news but with +33 to-hit (really +41 with WC) you are going to miss half the time as well killing what little DPS was left after dealing with his fort.

Of course there is more to life (or this game if different) than Fiend elite ... or is there

[maddmatt70]

This build (with happy gear) should tear him up normal

Now on elite you are going to get hit every time (no ac), fail half your saving throws (29 Reflex), and with only 396 HP experience what we call "insta-death" Sorry for more bad news but with +33 to-hit (really +41 with WC) you are going to miss half the time as well killing what little DPS was left after dealing with his fort.

Of course there is more to life (or this game if different) than Fiend elite ... or is there

I have to say and yes my primary char is a twf fighter or my bards that barbarians do rule the roost on elite. They just quite simply have a higher number of hit points and a little higher dr then what a fighter can attain and with ranger there is an even more of an hp gap. That is not saying that fighters, rangers, or paladins couldn't tank on elite it is just they have to be even more focused to do it from a build/gear standpoint and they need more damage mitigation help i.e. fire prots and stoneskin to make life easier.

Regarding offense the barbarian does have advantages over a fighter and I think this has to do with the length of the combat on part 5 more then anything else. It is not short enough that fighter haste boost can be clicked 5 times in rapid succession with cooldown timer waiting in between and it is not too long to the point where the barbarian has to respec his rage length thus gimping himself or he runs out of rages - the fact is the time frame is right for a barbarian and where a fighter does less dps. The only situation where a fighter can do more dps in todays game is with fighter haste boost and if a barbarian isn't raging which is just the way the numbers are right now.

[Grenfell]

I have to say and yes my primary char is a twf fighter or my bards that barbarians do rule the roost on elite. They just quite simply have a higher number of hit points and a little higher dr then what a fighter can attain and with ranger there is an even more of an hp gap. That is not saying that fighters, rangers, or paladins couldn't tank on elite it is just they have to be even more focused to do it from a build/gear standpoint and they need more damage mitigation help i.e. fire prots and stoneskin to make life easier.

Regarding offense the barbarian does have advantages over a fighter and I think this has to do with the length of the combat on part 5 more then anything else. It is not short enough that fighter haste boost can be clicked 5 times in rapid succession with cooldown timer waiting in between and it is not too long to the point where the barbarian has to respec his rage length thus gimping himself or he runs out of rages - the fact is the time frame is right for a barbarian and where a fighter does less dps. The only situation where a fighter can do more dps in todays game is with fighter haste boost and if a barbarian isn't raging which is just the way the numbers are right now.

Does the barbarian have an advantage over a Str tempest Ranger these days? I'm not so sure.

I know on portals, my ranger whips my barb's DPS thanks to FE: Construct. Since I have FE: Evil Outsider as well, and 400 hp, I'm not so sure that he wouldn't outdamage my barb.

I'm fighting at 36 Str typically vs. the Pit Fiend due to Madstone Rage going off pretty consistently (30 base, 2 Ram's Might, 2 Rage spell/potion, 2 Madstone Rage). FE adds another +12 or +14 to damage (I think?), equivalent to +24 or +28 strength. And he has Tempest, for 10% faster melee in TWF. I have a shade over 400 hp in there.

My barbarian gets to 44 Str typically vs. the Pit Fiend. (30 base, Rage to 40, rage pot to 42, Madstone to 44) I get up to a bit over 500 hp in there. The diff between 44 Str and 36 Str is also +4 to hit, but due to FE bonuses, that's actually only a +2 to hit in favor of the Barb. I don't miss meleeing the Pit Fiend on either character more than 10-20% of the time anyhow.

I don't know that even on Elite, the Ranger > Barbarian vs. the Fiend thanks to FE: Evil Outsider.

There's no requirement for more focus or diff gear or any such thing. Barb AC is lower than Ranger AC, and both are too low to avoid getting hit by Big Red anyhow. Parties just think Rangers ought to hang back and range to minimize cost on the cleric, but I'm thinking that assuming same weapons, my Ranger would outdo my Barb, even taking crit rage 2 into account....

/gren

[maddmatt70]

Does the barbarian have an advantage over a Str tempest Ranger these days? I'm not so sure.

I know on portals, my ranger whips my barb's DPS thanks to FE: Construct. Since I have FE: Evil Outsider as well, and 400 hp, I'm not so sure that he wouldn't outdamage my barb.

I'm fighting at 36 Str typically vs. the Pit Fiend due to Madstone Rage going off pretty consistently (30 base, 2 Ram's Might, 2 Rage spell/potion, 2 Madstone Rage). FE adds another +12 or +14 to damage (I think?), equivalent to +24 or +28 strength. And he has Tempest, for 10% faster melee in TWF. I have a shade over 400 hp in there.

My barbarian gets to 44 Str typically vs. the Pit Fiend. (30 base, Rage to 40, rage pot to 42, Madstone to 44) I get up to a bit over 500 hp in there. The diff between 44 Str and 36 Str is also +4 to hit, but due to FE bonuses, that's actually only a +2 to hit in favor of the Barb. I don't miss meleeing the Pit Fiend on either character more than 10-20% of the time anyhow.

I don't know that even on Elite, the Ranger > Barbarian vs. the Fiend thanks to FE: Evil Outsider.

There's no requirement for more focus or diff gear or any such thing. Barb AC is lower than Ranger AC, and both are too low to avoid getting hit by Big Red anyhow. Parties just think Rangers ought to hang back and range to minimize cost on the cleric, but I'm thinking that assuming same weapons, my Ranger would outdo my Barb, even taking crit rage 2 into account....

/gren

On normal rangers as long as they have enough hp to tank are pretty solid in there no doubt and can compete in there with barbs, but on elite fighters are probably better then rangers and barbarians are better then fighters. Barbarians and yes fighters superiority has everything to do with defense specifically hit points on elite. Evasion can't save a ranger in there because of the high dc/rolling a 1 and the significant negative effects of death.

[stockwizard5]

On elite - assuming you can mitigate all the fireball damage (evasion, prot, resist, absorb) you still have to survive at least 2 attacks at 240 pts (100 claw + 100 claw + 40 bite) so basically anyone under 480 HP is going to have issues. Over 720 (most likely barbs) provide some margin.

I have a 400 HP tempest build that saves 95% of the time and at 65AC (68 after chatter) in theory requires a 13 to-hit but unfortunately even a 33% hit chance doubles up 11% of the time creating the minor problem of being dead

[Grenfell]

On normal rangers as long as they have enough hp to tank are pretty solid in there no doubt and can compete in there with barbs, but on elite fighters are probably better then rangers and barbarians are better then fighters. Barbarians and yes fighters superiority has everything to do with defense specifically hit points on elite. Evasion can't save a ranger in there because of the high dc/rolling a 1 and the significant negative effects of death.

Hm. Let's examine this for a moment.

First, we have to assume that you want similar DPS output. Sure, you could theoretically have some HP-build Barb with lower Str and such, but that's not comparing apples to apples. So if we compare three TWF styles, Ranger, Barb, and Fighter, how does it shake out?

Your typical TWF Barb will have 14 base Con (16 if Dwarf). Fighter the same. Ranger possibly more, due to getting TWF for free. I'll just assume three max-dps builds going TWF style and make some other assumptions as well. All Dwarven. All level ups go into Str and Con enhancements are taken.

Str = 18 +4 lvls +6 item +2 tome +2 rage +2 madstone = 34 prior to barb rage & ftr str & ram's might
Con = 16 +2 enh +6 item +2 rage +2 madstone = 28 prior to barb enh (assume +3) & barb rage (assume hardy rage 3)

             Barb                    Fighter                       Ranger
Str          18 --> 44 (+17)         18 --> 36 (+13)               18 --> 36 (+13)
Dex          16 --> 24               16 --> 24                     12 --> 22
Con          16 --> 40 (+15)         16 --> 28 (+9)                18 --> 30 (+10)
Int           8                       8                             8
Wis           8                       8                            10                      
Cha           6                       6                             6

To sync the weapon, let's all make them take Khopesh:

The Barb has 6 feats total: TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Power Attack, Improved Crit, Khopesh
The Fighter can easily have those feats and then some -- easily OTWF, Stunning Blow, Toughness, etc.
The Ranger has 6 feats also: Toughness, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Improved Crit, Khopesh

Say they're all dual-wielding two +5 Transmuting Khopesh, just to make the math a bit easier.

Barb HP: 192 (base) + 30 (drac + heroic) + 18 (helm) + 208 (con bonus) = 480
Ftr HP: 160 (base) + 30 (drac + heroic) + 18 (helm) + 144 (Con bonus) + 18 (feat) + 100 (enhancements) = 470
Ranger HP: 128 (base) + 30 + 18 + 160 (con bonus) + 18 (feat) + 50 (enhancements) = 404

Yes, specific builds have specific strengths, and a HP barb build does exist. I just don't believe a HP TWF Barb build is viable.

All three are going to need healing if they get hit with the 240 pt combo by the Fiend. All three are going to get hit basically every time the Fiend swings at them. But, Evasion can and absolutely does work on Elite; I've been in multiple Elite runs with my ranger, and only failed the save once -- and survived it easily. Not sure why you believe that on elite, the DC is so high that evasion doesn't matter. His DBF is not Elite Traps; they can be evaded with relative ease. In contrast, both the Ftr and the Barb will take the damage from DBF.

So in fact, while all three characters have to worry about melee damage, and need cleric heal support to survive, only the Ranger doesn't really need to worry about spell damage from Big Red. Just that fact alone more or less negates the 70-80 hp advantage that the Barb or Fighter has over the Ranger.

In terms of DPS:

Barb: 1d8 + 17 str + 5 wep +5 PA = 1d8 + 27 = 28-35, crit on 15 for x3
Ftr: 1d8 + 13 str + 5 wep +5 PA +4 greater spec = 28-35, crit on 17 for x3
Ranger: 1d8 + 13 str + 5 wep +12 Favored Enemy = 1d8 + 30 = 31 - 38, crit on 17 for x3, 10% more attacks in same time period.

The Ranger outdamage the fighter easily -- more damage per swing, and 11 swings for every 10 that the Fighter gets. Oddly enough, in theory, the Tempest Ranger slightly outdamages the Barbarian:

E.g.: "20" swings

Ranger damage:

17 regular hits = 38 * 17 = 646
3 crits = 38 *3 *3 = 342
2 Tempest hits = 38 * 2 = 76
Total = 1064

Barb damage:

15 regular hits = 35 * 15 = 525
5 crits = 35 * 3 * 5 = 525
Total = 1050

Ftr damage (for comparison):

17 regular hits = 35 * 17 = 595
3 crits = 35 * 3 * 3 = 315
Total = 910

----------------

I realize this is just theorycraft, but at a minimum, I think it shows that the assumptions people have about who should and should not 'tank' the Pit Fiend is way outdated and colored by their experiences of stereotype builds. Your Drow 250 hp bow-shootin' ranger cannot be up-front with the Pit Fiend. Your melee-spec Tempest Dwarven Str Ranger absolutely can, and outdamage the Barb as well (assuming same gear) while putting less pressure on the healers due to Evasion.

I did this kinda fast, since I'm at work -- if anyone wants to doublecheck those numbers, that'd be great. I might be drawing the wrong conclusions here, but based on the above, I don't think so.

/gren

[Borror0]

Nevermind, you mentioned Tempest on top. I had missed it.

[EinarMal]

I realize this is just theorycraft, but at a minimum, I think it shows that the assumptions people have about who should and should not 'tank' the Pit Fiend is way outdated and colored by their experiences of stereotype builds. Your Drow 250 hp bow-shootin' ranger cannot be up-front with the Pit Fiend. Your melee-spec Tempest Dwarven Str Ranger absolutely can, and outdamage the Barb as well (assuming same gear) while putting less pressure on the healers due to Evasion.

I did this kinda fast, since I'm at work -- if anyone wants to doublecheck those numbers, that'd be great. I might be drawing the wrong conclusions here, but based on the above, I don't think so.

/gren

The same should apply to a Rogue 10/Ranger 6 with roughly the same hit points. I will definitely have to try this out, only level 12 at the moment.

As far as the to-hit goes, I do not think you would be that much behind. I didn't list top notch gear in the thread I posted (no +3 tomes, madstone boots, or any of that stuff). If you are giving the fighter 44 strength in your calcs then the Ranger/Rogue I posted is only:

-2 (16 starting strength) -3(Enhancements) +2(Rams) = -3 behind that and the BAB difference is 3 for a total of -6 HOWEVER I do not need power attack (I don't even have it) so they actually are pretty much dead even on to-hit. I could also take a couple of FE enhancements to get that up +2 more but didn't list that as it was intended to be a "shroud optimized" version

I can't imagine also a 29 reflex save failing half the time, and also the 10/6 build would have improved evasion and only take 1/2 damage on a failed save.

[Strykersz]

Rangers are going to outpace barbs in the shroud by quite a bit. One thing you didn't account for gren is the fortification they'll be facing, which obviously works against the barbarian a bit more than the ranger(and it pretty much kills the rogue/ranger guy's dps too).

[EinarMal]

Rangers are going to outpace barbs in the shroud by quite a bit. One thing you didn't account for gren is the fortification they'll be facing, which obviously works against the barbarian a bit more than the ranger(and it pretty much kills the rogue/ranger guy's dps too).

Not really the difference between Rogue 10/Ranger 6 and Ranger 16 isn't that much even ignoring sneak attacks. They have the same strength, FE damage is 6 versus 12, and the BAB difference is -3 (ignoring the fact that I have 12 DP clickies and they are really easy to find now essentially I could get 30 if I felt like carrying that many cloaks).

So all that sneak attacks have to make up for is basically 6 damage per swing, that's it. Sneak attack damage is around 31 per swing, so you need to only get 20% of your swings as sneak attacks to be even.

[Shade]

I'm fighting at 36 Str typically vs. the Pit Fiend due to Madstone Rage going off pretty consistently (30 base, 2 Ram's Might, 2 Rage spell/potion, 2 Madstone Rage). FE adds another +12 or +14 to damage (I think?), equivalent to +24 or +28 strength. And he has Tempest, for 10% faster melee in TWF. I have a shade over 400 hp in there.

My barbarian gets to 44 Str typically vs. the Pit Fiend. (30 base, Rage to 40, rage pot to 42, Madstone to 44) I get up to a bit over 500 hp in there. The diff between 44 Str and 36 Str is also +4 to hit, but due to FE bonuses, that's actually only a +2 to hit in favor of the Barb. I don't miss meleeing the Pit Fiend on either character more than 10-20% of the time anyhow.

Well that makes it simple to compare your characters for phase 5 elite melee:

Ranger dps : 0 - because your dead
Barbarian dps: great

Why? 400 hp doesn't cut it. 500 does, barely.

So at the end of the day when all the math is said and done, its all for nothing because a dead person cannot melee very well.

Like madmatt and others have said, well built dps rangers are excellent in the shroud on normal. On elite theyare often demoted to shooting bows.. Which isn't at all bad, and often advantageous, but thats how it is.

[Shade]

Barb: 1d8 + 17 str + 5 wep +5 PA = 1d8 + 27 = 28-35, crit on 15 for x3

You should take power attack enhancements on your barb. It adds up to 3 dmg for twf or 6 for thf, pretty sweet enhancement.

Highly recommended. It's like those favored enemies enhancements you did include for the rangers numbers, yet only for barbarians, take a look into it.

[Shade]

Shade's a great player and he knows his stuff. Problem is, when it comes to the forums, he tends to stretch the truth and think that barbarians are the best class and no other can compare to them (except maybe sorcerers).

What you infer from my posts is entirely based upon how you read them, much of what you seem to get from them is ludicrous. Sure I exagerate a bit here and thing, but thats just something I do to liven up the forums and add some spice to the discussions, some might find that quality annoying and others enjoy it, but thats just me, thats all i can do.

Now a few things are indeed true tho, like ofcourse I think barbarians are the best class - I mean thats why I play one most of the time. Doesn't everyone think there favourite class is the best one? I think they should.

[LewsTherin]

Did I miss something? Where did the devs say there was a Superior two-weapon fighting?

[stockwizard5]

Hm. Let's examine this for a moment. ... I did this kinda fast, since I'm at work -- if anyone wants to doublecheck those numbers, that'd be great. I might be drawing the wrong conclusions here, but based on the above, I don't think so. /gren

Very cool ... couple of quick thoughts

1. Most Barbarians (at least that I see) are THF instead of TWF which really hurts their DPS and ups their HPs (although not this analysis)
2. Most Barbarians (if not all, ok all) take Toughness so the 100 HP Enhancments needs to apply to Barb's (even the helm let's you take them today if no feat) - IF TWF GS Ks then swap out IC is reasonable.
3. Most Barbarians that TWF (at least I think the really good ones) MC at least 2 levels of Fighter/Ranger/Rogue for Feats, etc.
4. Fighter Haste Boost is HUGE!
5. Fortification Must be Considered in DPS
6. Barbarian DR does matter since its multiple smaller attacks of 100/100/40 (elite) so add ~ 8% to Barb HP for DR (elite) - more for H/N.
7. Fighter only gets 3 extra feats (1 extra if MC 14B/2F) because of 4 Ws
8. Both would likely wear GFL and have more rage CON than listed

Adjusting the Barbs HP to 640 (just from T, DR, TE beyond F/R) seriously effects the conclusion.

It would be great if you stay with this and spend the time to clean up this analysis as you get comments!

ps: Tweaked TWF F14/Rogue2 ends up with 539 HP before rage as a sanity check.