Updated Death Penalty and Permanent Item Damage Changes

[Ustice]

What Ciaran says is true. My cleric is now using pretty uber loot, but he is still always poor. I had to make a Bard (read Merchant) just to make some more cash. Scrolls, wands, and the like at so expensive... I am really worried about this extra cost now. I'll definitely have to lower my Raid running rate.

[Gratch]

That's why there needs to be an end to twinking- but that's another matter.

An end to twinking? I think you can only decrease the level of twinking... as one person's twink is probably another person's mule... aka... oh you only passed down +4 fullplate to your L6? I passed down +4 mithril FP to my L6! You wuss... I passed down +5 mithril FP RR to my L6! You wuss... I passed down +5 blueshine mithril FP RR of axeblock to my L6 - it was pulled from a static quest reward option when there was a binding bug for a week. The problem is - if you take down all the twinking... and keep taking it down cuz people will keep complaining... at some point you end up with barbie fashion show as no equipment can have any property or it's considered twinking.

Instead they have the treasure tables that play by certain level restrictions, they have static bound reward items as you level to give a leg up if you didn't find a random item for a particular need, there's guilds with items they'll share, and there's the ah. People who really want to keep twinking to a certain level usually play in their own guild groups or with their own item rules. They probably don't run Gianthold Tor elite with said toons. I think the content devs end up with a tough line to work with both sides of this twinking deviation... but usually normal, hard, and elite are mostly adequate (excluding you Mr. Abbot)... but not always... and often times they do adjust difficulty based on both sides of the feedback.

Edit: You know I'm all over Barbie Fashion show... though I twink it by running in 1080p on my 360.

[Ciaran]

Call me silly, But I liked the old EQ method of Corpse runs.
That put the fear of death in you for sure.

However, it was a challenge. And that's the point isn't it? Making this game challenging?

How does breaking all your gear from drowning make this game a challenge?
it doesn't, it makes it stupid.

Death penalties should at least make sense, or be rooted in the tradition of the game.

Silly.

Running back to your corpse isn't a challenge, it's annoying. I can't tell you how often I lost items in UO after dying to para-gank squads of PK's, fighting liches, daemons, ophidians, etc and lagging out, losing power, being griefed so my timer would expire or just being looted by other players.

This was what made the death system in UO so off-putting until they introduced the Felucca/Trammel split and allowed you to insure your items - it took gold out of the economy and allowed you to keep your gear. Now monsters and players can only loot uninsured items, such as gold so you only risk losing part of a night's gains from hunting instead of EVERYTHING. I guess this new death penalty system is Turbine's way of trying to take gold out of the economy. While I'm not all for it, it makes sense and the penalties are more palatable.

That said, I actually agree that death penalties should make sense in the context of the game, but apparently they felt the need to go outside of that in order to come up with an ostensibly fairer penalty that affected everybody the same way.

Really though, the newly proposed changes are better than the old system - it might not make sense, but at least your gear doesn't stand the chance to get permanently damaged from death with or without being bound.

[Ciaran]

Amen brother!

But it won't happen any time soon. Look at the outcry we had when they tried to make even the teensiest tinyest adjustment to the economy with the last iteration of the DP. And even now we have people complaining over a totally optional system they don't even HAVE to use because it would limit their ability to twink.

Any attempt to take away the "right" to twink is going to result in a massive outcry and about a million "I'm leaving!!!!" posts, hehe.

Ever feel like you're in the wrong game? You can keep on insisting this is D&D first and an MMO second, but it's actually the other way around, and there's a level of twinking to any MMO.

I mean, I play in a relatively strict Roleplay Peristent World in NWN where twinking alts is forbidden and twinking others, to an extent is discouraged and for good reason - but that's a much more controlled world where the player's actions have an actual impact. Me and a friend have had to ask a DM to run a quest for us where we can try to get items to help us in our fight against the nasties that run amok in Ravenloft, and we risk death or even permadeath in doing so. That's the name of the game there and I enjoy it for what it is.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that sounds like something more up your alley. DDO is not that and it shouldn't be - otherwise it would've been that from the beginning. Trying to backwards engineer the game to make it anything like that is going to, just like MT said, drive off a majority of the existing playerbase in frustration while only benefitting the handful of purists who seem to be calling for it. Raid loot, bound end-rewards are there to benefit people who haven't gotten lucky with good pulls or haven't found Prysuul's Bane after 20 runs of Invaders or don't have a guild that passes on items.

You can say that the monsters are designed around the powerful items that exist in game, and while to an extent that may be true, I remember well the days where a +5 weapon and power attack turned off were needed by most people to hit Blackguards in Tempest Spine, and that was before all the "uber" loot was available in the game. You know what? That's how it goes in MMO's.

Has anybody provided strong examples and proof that the devs are basing the difficulty of new content on people having vorpals, disruptors, banishers, at whatnot?

[Hendrik]

Silly.

Running back to your corpse isn't a challenge, it's annoying. I can't tell you how often I lost items in UO after dying to para-gank squads of PK's, fighting liches, daemons, ophidians, etc and lagging out, losing power, being griefed so my timer would expire or just being looted by other players.

*snip*

*flashback*

An Nox
Corp Por
Kal Vas Flam
An Nox
Corp Por

OoooOoooOoooooOOOo

[Ustice]

Has anybody provided strong examples and proof that the devs are basing the difficulty of new content on people having vorpals, disruptors, banishers, at whatnot?

Run one of the harder quests on elite. Try casting a spell on the mobs without a twinked toon.

But... It isn't that uncommon anyway, so it balances out.

[Ciaran]

*flashback*

An Nox
Corp Por
Kal Vas Flam
An Nox
Corp Por

OoooOoooOoooooOOOo

Stupid PK's...why were they curing poison on you? You meant "In Nox" right?

For me it was:

An Ex Por
In Nox
Kal Vas Flam
Corp Por
An Ex Por
Corp Por
Vas Ort Flam
An Mani

OOOoooooOooooO

[Darth_Sizzle]

This is crazy, no one has complained about the current death penalty since it was first introduced. At that time people were very "up in arms" about all the xp debt they were ending up with. Since the initial "shock" of the xp debt system (when it increased, scaling) I have not seen one thread (or heard anyone in-game) talking about this being some kind of problem. XP debt makes perfect sense (it even applies in Pencil & Paper), the new debuff even makes sense - the DAMAGE to ALL of your equipment makes NO SENSE.

There is no way this scales for the "newbie" and the "power gamer" - explain to me the scaling difference between having 4 million plat and having 400 gold? Sure, my uber twink lowbie will have to pay a little more to fix my gear (an amount of money that will be too small for me to even think about noticing) vs. a newbie who has to pay 200 of their 400 gold to fix their junk. That equates to a drop in the bucket to me vs. 50% of a newbies money.

Also, the new idea of your gear not having a chance of taking permanent damage from death related wear and tear is rubbish. Why? Because once your gear takes some damage from a death, then it's easier to become more damaged from use (resulting in a greater chance for permanent damage due to the already reduced durability).

[Issip]

I guess I missed the problem here - people were complaining about the current death penalty as too harsh?? I'm nuetral to the change except that a lot of development resources seem to be fixing things that are not broken. Gratz to those who wanted this for whatever reason you wanted it, I hope it helps you with whatever issues you were having.

[Hendrik]

Stupid PK's...why were they curing poison on you? You meant "In Nox" right?

For me it was:

An Ex Por
In Nox
Kal Vas Flam
Corp Por
An Ex Por
Corp Por
Vas Ort Flam
An Mani

OOOoooooOooooO

IN nox!!

That was it! Thx! Been such a long time surprised I remember any of them....

[Ciaran]

This is crazy, no one has complained about the current death penalty since it was first introduced. At that time people were very "up in arms" about all the xp debt they were ending up with. Since the initial "shock" of the xp debt system (when it increased, scaling) I have not seen one thread (or heard anyone in-game) talking about this being some kind of problem. XP debt makes perfect sense (it even applies in Pencil & Paper), the new debuff even makes sense - the DAMAGE to ALL of your equipment makes NO SENSE.

There is no way this scales for the "newbie" and the "power gamer" - explain to me the scaling difference between having 4 million plat and having 400 gold? Sure, my uber twink lowbie will have to pay a little more to fix my gear (an amount of money that will be too small for me to even think about noticing) vs. a newbie who has to pay 200 of their 400 gold to fix their junk. That equates to a drop in the bucket to me vs. 50% of a newbies money.

Also, the new idea of your gear not having a chance of taking permanent damage from death related wear and tear is rubbish. Why? Because once your gear takes some damage from a death, then it's easier to become more damaged from use (resulting in a greater chance for permanent damage due to the already reduced durability).

Not sure it works that way - when it comes time to repair only damage sustained from normal wear and tear will count towards the chance for permanent damage, so if I understand that correctly then that means even though your item has taken a lot of damage (if you die alot) it's being repaired with the chance for permanent damage only as if it had taken much less damage than it actually did.

That make sense?

I don't necessarily agree with the reasons or the need for the changes, but for now, they're coming and the new changes are better than previously proposed changes.

[Vhlad]

This is much better than the initial plan. Thanks for listening to some of the feedback.

[Ciaran]

IN nox!!

That was it! Thx! Been such a long time surprised I remember any of them....

I was fairly sure that An Nox was cure poison as I used to cast that alot when fighting ophidian avengers (with their fatal poison on nearly every blow).

I had to look it up to be sure though, so don't feel bad.

[Issip]

Yes let's return to the xp penalty because it makes the most real world sense. In fact, I am sitting in a tavern right now trying to recoup my xp loss from when I got vorpalled at the grocery store and had to recall. If only the clerk hadn't rolled a 20 I'm pretty sure that my dr would have had me covered because I had on my +5 addy full plate of axeblock and actively blocking with my +5 addy tower shield and he only had a vorpal handaxe. (I think he might have had weapon finesse though he didn't look that strong but had good manual dexterity on the cash register). I tell you what, though, that is the LAST time I am going to Fred Meyer.

Silly Weasel - have you seen them ever back off on a change? They already developed the change. Check the title of the post, they aren't asking if this will be a positive change, they are telling us how it will be. I don't know whose feedback drove them to do this, but I seem to miss those discussions as issues that don't bother me in any way because I think the game is working fine seem to be the ones I overlook the threads on. By the time you find out here it is over - this is just an FYI to you that the change is coming.

[Darth_Sizzle]

Not sure it works that way - when it comes time to repair only damage sustained from normal wear and tear will count towards the chance for permanent damage, so if I understand that correctly then that means even though your item has taken a lot of damage (if you die alot) it's being repaired with the chance for permanent damage only as if it had taken much less damage than it actually did.

That make sense?

I don't necessarily agree with the reasons or the need for the changes, but for now, they're coming and the new changes are better than previously proposed changes.

What makes YOU sure it works that way vs the way I understand it?

[MysticTheurge]

Silly Weasel - have you seen them ever back off on a change?

I think you kind of missed the point of his post.

[Raithe]

I guess I missed the problem here - people were complaining about the current death penalty as too harsh?? I'm nuetral to the change except that a lot of development resources seem to be fixing things that are not broken. Gratz to those who wanted this for whatever reason you wanted it, I hope it helps you with whatever issues you were having.

You realize that if the developers of DDO simplified their game development criteria to "do whatever the playerbase wants," they would have a list of 95,000 things to add or remove from the game and nothing to actually accomplish because 47,500 of the things on the list would conflict with the rest? It boils down to the developers doing what they think will be best for the game, not what the developers think the playerbase will ask for...

Which brings up the question, how are these death penalties going to be good for the game?

[Ciaran]

What makes YOU sure it works that way vs the way I understand it?

Well unless you can come up with a plausible alternative interpretation of this:

Any item wear acquired in this manner from dying has NO chance of inflicting permanent damage on your equipment when it is repaired.

Items that accrue both standard item wear and death item wear will calculate their chance of permanent damage using only the normal item wear (ignoring the item wear from death itself).

I think it's more reasonable to conclude my interpretation is correct.

[Darth_Sizzle]

Well unless you can come up with a plausible alternative interpretation of this:



I think it's more reasonable to conclude my interpretation is correct.

Ooops! OK, you're right - I'm wrong (don't know how the hell I missed that part).

Even still, I think the change is a silly waste of time & more importantly it will be much harder on the truely new players to the game (who are monetarily challanged) vs those who are already established. Besides, isn't having people work off their XP debt by questing more a good thing (since they are playing more)?

[Devilsdelight]

Since this post only has 17 pages vs. the 70+ the original thread had, and since there seem to be only a few (I counted 5) people who are really against the new system. So I'd say it's a pretty good compromise :-)