Updated Death Penalty and Permanent Item Damage Changes

[Gratch]

Since this post only has 17 pages vs. the 70+ the original thread had, and since there seem to be only a few (I counted 5) people who are really against the new system. So I'd say it's a pretty good compromise :-)

Yep... hopefully done here so the devs can get back to Mod 6 spells and fixes ([SUBLIMINAL]and making Adamantine Device IV confer Adamantine dr passing bonus[/SUBLIMINAL]).

[Invalid_86]

Your response to Eladrin's "It would be complicated" was "Well add this too!"

It was actually "do this instead" not "do this too".

[jjflanigan]

So if we log off now, will our Gear REPAIR ITSELF?

You did it for XP, turn about is fair play.

I must say, that the whole "repair bill is related to "net worth"" is a bit disturbing.
I think some people are under the wrong assumption, that great gear = great wealth.

Um,,, WRONG.

I don't do pointless loot runs for cash. Why? because it's boring!
Playing a quest to regain XP is one thing.... You want to talk about fun, lets talk.

It's more FUN, to regain XP on any ole quest.

It's LESS fun to quest to Earn Cash, because I failed a posion save, got all my gear broken from doing so (Don't ask how),
And have to pay someone to fix it!!!

That's called work.

Why is it any different to run 1 quest to replace the XP you lost dying versus running 1 quest to repair the gear you had damaged dying?

Either way you have to run an additional quest to "fix" what death did to you. Why does the purpose of running that quest change whether or not it is fun?

[Wook]

Myself I'm all for the debuff on dieing
Makes it alittle harder to just basically jump back in your body and going right into the thick of things after getting that res and heal from the cleric

On the other hand
I don't like the item damage stuff
I typically am not very wealthy on my toons and I don't need another drain on the limited funds I have because I don't really like doing loot runs all night long for the short amounts of time I play these days.

There has to be some compromise that can be made in all of this the XP penalty isn't a problem you come to expect it
Yes most people are capped but hell I had a lvl 13 ranger get 70k xp debt from the reaver raid because I wouldn't give up
That took quite a few runs thru other quests to clear up.

So I guess I'd rather see just the debuff added and nothing else changed

[muffinlad]

1) De-buff on death is fine.
2) Non-perma damage on stuff is fine.

Changes look good to me, and I look forward to seeing it implemented.

Regs,

muffindead.

[Ron]

Ever feel like you're in the wrong game?

Not at all. You?

You can keep on insisting this is D&D first and an MMO second, but it's actually the other way around, and there's a level of twinking to any MMO.

There are compromises that had to be made to turn D&D into a MMOG. I'm not only aware of that, I've on many occassions defended the choices that were made that some of the D&D purists don't agree with. For the vast majority of those choices, I think Turbine did an *excellent* job when it came to making hard decisions between the two where they were mutually exclusive.

That being said, I think they blew this call. Twinking should *never* have been allowed in this game in any form. It was a major blunder which has, in my opinion, had serious and very damaging effects during the history of this game. I could list them, but I've done it before. Look through my posts if you want to see the reasoning, I don't really feel like going through it again, especially since you'll just dismiss them anyway. This ain't just any old MMOG, this is something different than exists anywhere else on the market. To say "it's a part of ALL MMOGs" is not a good argument. It may be true, but this isn't ALL MMOGs, this is DDO. If AoC or WoW jumped off a bridge, would DDO jump too?

Has anybody provided strong examples and proof that the devs are basing the difficulty of new content on people having vorpals, disruptors, banishers, at whatnot?

Yeesh, there's no way to PROVE that. We have no comparison. We'd need to have the EXACT same game as DDO without the twinking and be able to look at relative quest difficulty designs between the two. Now I could trot out my list of newer quests versus older quests and call them harder, and you'd respond on how easy they were, and I'd respond on how silly that was for reasons X and Y, and you'd come back with how I should be playing something else because of A and B, blah blah blah. It's all subjective. Let's just skip all that and agree to disagree, and respect each other's opinions, cause I just don't want to go through it again

[Pellegro]

The current proposed system scales well because it automatically adjusts depending whether a character is a fully twinked out uber-lowbie, a true newbie wearing rags, a roleplayer that stops to visit all the sights and is still wearing that Masterwork Hide Armor because it just looks totally awesome, or the most extreme powergamer living on the edge with the best of the best gear.

I'm glad you made that explicit. It wasn't clear to me earlier. That is a nice feature of the system - those who have more, pay more.

Of course, I have lots of nice equipment but for some reason no cash. I guess I'm going to have to remember to start using my Haggle items, and dropping a few select items on the AH.

[Kreaper]

Sorry if this has been asked already. I just couldn't read all 12 pages to find out.

What about bound items that already have tons of perm damage? Like my Retribution for instance. Will the damage be repaired?

[Wildseed]

Sorry if this has been asked already. I just couldn't read all 12 pages to find out.

What about bound items that already have tons of perm damage? Like my Retribution for instance. Will the damage be repaired?

My understanding is no, however bound items can use an eldritch device to add durability to it through some magic (no idea when this will be implemented though) So, not now but eventually it can get at least 10 more durability and i don't remember how much hardness :-)

[DaveyCrockett]

My understanding is no, however bound items can use an eldritch device to add durability to it through some magic (no idea when this will be implemented though) So, not now but eventually it can get at least 10 more durability and i don't remember how much hardness :-)

That's in Mod 5 from my understanding

[MrCow]

I guess I'm going to have to remember to start using my Haggle items

Haggle doesn't help lower repair costs, last time I checked.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

The current proposed system scales well because it automatically adjusts depending whether a character is a fully twinked out uber-lowbie, a true newbie wearing rags, a roleplayer that stops to visit all the sights and is still wearing that Masterwork Hide Armor because it just looks totally awesome, or the most extreme powergamer living on the edge with the best of the best gear.

Because of the way you are generating random loot gp value is not indicitive of quality of equipment in many cases. For example, +5MFP is clearly more uber/worth more than a +3 lesser fire guard Full Plate of lesser fire resist and yet they have the same gp value. (forgive me if that's not an exact gp value equivilent, but you get the idea)

That being said, for the reasons you sited I don't know how much better you could do at scaling the penalty unless you totally went back to the table on item valuation to add a subjective (and doubtless therefore hugely debatable ) value to certain uber properties/items.

[spyderwolf]

You seem to think that these awesom weapons will actually be useful at higher levels, let me tell you they are not

the true powerhouse weapons will be the ones created in the eldritch furnaces and will never be traded, where hopefully I can create a holy burst transmuting rapier of greater evil outsider bane

unless the game is severely changed the true power house weapon will be and continue to be for the majority of content,a w/p rapier.

[CSFurious]

you & others who share your "anti-twinking" stance can form a new guild called:

"The Twinkies"

the rest of will continue to have fun

That's why there needs to be an end to twinking- but that's another matter.

[Riot]

Why is it any different to run 1 quest to replace the XP you lost dying versus running 1 quest to repair the gear you had damaged dying?

Either way you have to run an additional quest to "fix" what death did to you. Why does the purpose of running that quest change whether or not it is fun?

Good question. Glad you asked.

In my current situation, lets settle several things.

- I don't do loot runs. (it's lame and boring)
- I don't do alot of alternate character playing. (ie: I don't' have alot of super geared alts)
- My current character is MAXED on faction. Meaning I've run every quest in this game on elite. (and I don't really have the desire to repeat most of them)
- I currently have just over 100k plat. (not rich by any stretch)
- I have over 40 Raid loot drops. (ie: pretty stong gear)
- Raid loot chests are not known for great cash loot either.

When I log in, I like to Raid. With the Abbot raid, I can rack up 10-12 deaths a night. (not because I am sloppy, but because that's what it takes when you are doing something hard/unbeaten as intended)
However, in turn I can run VoN, or the Twilight Forge and pretty much make back all that XP. (I like raiding) it's my "FUN".

But I highly doubt that I'd make anywhere near enough $$ to pay for all the repair debt. In fact I'm pretty sure of it.
Sorry the Cash loot in those quests just don't cut it.

After all my current Repair bill (despite Item Defense 2) is still pretty high. And on top of that I'm a frequent Potion Buyer.
So my money out is pretty much countered by the measly loot that trickles in, and the occasional auction house sell.

So here's my conclusion.

Play Less.

Instead of giving the Abbot a good 6-10 trys a night Plus a VoN run, it'll be 1-3 abbots and Some loot run.(which i don't like doing)

Congratulations, You've found a reason for me (a dedicated player) to actually desire to play less.

[Ciaran]

Not at all. You?

No, not at this point. If you and others who share your views ever get their way, then maybe. I think what's going on here is we both feel passionately about the same game, but have very different ideas about what they game is and what we feel it should be. Yes, I'm good at stating the obvious.

It's just that from your statements you seem to be fundamentally disappointed with the game because of twinked out characters and your perception that quests are being based around uber-equipped characters. You seem to be unhappy with the game because it doesn't have a harsher death penalty and because it allows twinking. You seem to be calling for large aspects of this game to be fundamentally changed and re-worked so it can match your idea of what it should be. If you can't be happy with what the game is because you're expecting it to be something else then you have nobody to blame for that but yourself. Not twinkers, not conspiracy theories that Turbine is intentionally making quests harder because of the abundance of loot in the game (which actually is a silly argument - with the abundance of really good items comes equal potential for people to obtain those items, so it balances out. Obviously people who play more are going to have better chances of getting those items).

Really, from everything I've heard about quests like The Abbot and even what I've seen in the Reaver having those big 5 uber items doesn't really make too much of a difference in there if at all. It's more of the Super Mario Bros. twitch reflex that matter than anything else. The Titan was unbeatable by everybody - fully twinked or not for months on end. There was hardly an abundance of extremely uber gear back then, was there?

I think losing the ability to twink alts or friends/guildies would actually be very harmful to this game and would only please a small subset of the playerbase. Because I care about this game of course I'm going to argue against the idea to eliminate it from the game. Twinking really only makes solo play through the lower levels more feasible and easier. A character wearing only fullplate and wielding masterwork or +1 items would have a very difficult time soloing WW or the harbor quests, but in a group of people similarly equipped success is much more likely.

Keep in mind that I'm not trying to attack or flame you and I'm only targetting your ideas for debate. I hope you aren't taking any of this personally and I apologize if I'm giving the wrong impression.

That being said, I think they blew this call. Twinking should *never* have been allowed in this game in any form. It was a major blunder which has, in my opinion, had serious and very damaging effects during the history of this game. I could list them, but I've done it before. Look through my posts if you want to see the reasoning, I don't really feel like going through it again, especially since you'll just dismiss them anyway. This ain't just any old MMOG, this is something different than exists anywhere else on the market. To say "it's a part of ALL MMOGs" is not a good argument. It may be true, but this isn't ALL MMOGs, this is DDO. If AoC or WoW jumped off a bridge, would DDO jump too?

I'm sorry you feel that I'd dismiss your reasons out of hand, but please don't think you can accurately predict what my responses will be. However, I understand not wanting to rehash statements you've already made, and I'll look through your posts. That said, if you aren't willing to argue and backup your reasoning and are unwilling to face the possibilty that you could in fact have your argument shown to be weak, then I guess there isn't any point in continuing. Sure, I can respect your opinion and your right to have it, even if I disagree with it vehemently. Nobody's saying you can't have that opinion. However, when you call for the game to be fundamentally changed by removing twinking totally, that's going a little further than just stating an opinion, you're asking for changes to be implemented to this game.

UO, Everquest, WoW, COH; they're all different than anything else that exists on the market as they are all different from each other - how is saying DDO is different from those a meaningful statement?

From a post you quoted and stated that you felt got across the same points you were trying to, it seems like your reasoning for being anti-twink is based on the perception that the devs are basing content around people having at least one of each of the big five and other uber gear. Yet you yourself say there's no comparison, no way to prove that. If it's all subjective then and unprovable then why would you think your argument would carry any weight? I know the devs value all feedback, but I'm not a dev and when I see a change proposed that I really disagree with, of course I'm going to say something.

I'm really tired of seeing people demonize twinking. Twinking, like it or not, comes with the territory in most MMO's. This isn't the same thing as saying "If WoW allows X then so should DDO", rather its an observation I tend to think is true about the playstyles and mechanics of many MMO's as a whole, especially ones that focus on this type of setting and playstyle. Were this something like a NWN Persistent World then I'd agree with you totally, however this is a very different game by design. The quests are always the same, only the difficulty can be adjusted and there's several different ways of completing them.

Being able to trade or pass down items is a good thing in these types of games. While it may be fun for you and others to start every new character bare bones from the ground up, for others the opposite is true. Guess what? Both have validity and they aren't mutually exclusive. You can make the choice to run each new character and only use items taken from chests, end rewards are traded with other players (that they pulled, looted, etc). Other playstyles can pass down that +3 mithril FP RR Human to their new tank character that they want to level up quickly.

You may think I'm arguing for one side over the other, but in reality I'm arguing for both to exist and be valid styles of play. Sure, WW on normal offers little challenge to fully twinked level 2-3's that's why there's hard and elite. For a group of untwinked levels 1-4 normal in most cases provides an adequate challenge.

...and you'd come back with how I should be playing something else because of A and B, blah blah blah. It's all subjective. Let's just skip all that and agree to disagree, and respect each other's opinions, cause I just don't want to go through it again

Again with predicting what my responses will be. I don't want you to go play something else - why would I tell people who play a game I like to go play something else? This game needs all the subscribers in can get (not a statement of DOOOM by the way, just saying).

Sure, we can agree to disagree but I'm always going to oppose suggestions to eliminate twinking, at least until somebody can convincingly argue why it is bad and provide some kind of good examples and proof.

[MysticTheurge]

Congratulations, You've found a reason for me (a dedicated player) to actually desire to play less.

No offense, Riot, but you just seem to be griping. There are ways to make this work for you, you just don't want to do them.

You can either A) Die less or B) Run a few extra quests for cash.

It's really not that hard. Your argument seems to be that you should be able to die without having to pay the costs for it. Yes, we're all aware that the XP penalty wasn't really that bad, especially for capped characters like you. This was part of what needed to be fixed. And so under the new system you have to pony up and actually do a bit of work to make up for your deaths. It's not the end of the world.

[bellack]

Now is this item damage above and beyond item damage aquired from general wear and tear as well as damage from creatures (slimes, rust monsters) and spells (Fireball, flamestrike?)

[dragnmoon]

It's not the end of the world.

Unless you are from mars

[Ron]

No, not at this point. If you and others who share your views ever get their way, then maybe. I think what's going on here is we both feel passionately about the same game, but have very different ideas about what they game is and what we feel it should be. Yes, I'm good at stating the obvious.

LOL, s'okay, sometimes the obvious needs to be stated But yeah, I certainly agree.

It's just that from your statements you seem to be fundamentally disappointed with the game because of twinked out characters and your perception that quests are being based around uber-equipped characters. You seem to be unhappy with the game because it doesn't have a harsher death penalty and because it allows twinking.

Hmmm, no, I'm not fundamentally disappointed with this game at all. I in fact feel like this is one of the best games ever created (for me, anyway). I've put more time into this game (in terms of playing and writing the planner and posting on the forums and just thinking about my next character build) than any game I've ever played previously, so that's saying a lot about how I feel about this game, I think

That being said, there are aspects of this game I would like to see changed, yes. I think the DP as currently proposed is still a bit on the light side (although better than the XP debt we have now), and yes, I think allowing twinking was a bad move. Those are my opinions.

I can live with those systems as they are, sure. But I think it would be a better game overall with those changes.

You seem to be calling for large aspects of this game to be fundamentally changed and re-worked so it can match your idea of what it should be.

Is that not what we all do when we post our ideas and debates on the forums?

Keep in mind that I'm not trying to attack or flame you and I'm only targetting your ideas for debate. I hope you aren't taking any of this personally and I apologize if I'm giving the wrong impression.

Sure, I haven't taken anything you said personally. You seem to be receptive to having a civil debate over the subject, and gererally I think that's how I tend to be as well. If I had never had this very debate before, I would certainly be up for it. I love a good debate (as I think everyone knows by now, heh).

I'm sorry you feel that I'd dismiss your reasons out of hand, but please don't think you can accurately predict what my responses will be. However, I understand not wanting to rehash statements you've already made, and I'll look through your posts. That said, if you aren't willing to argue and backup your reasoning and are unwilling to face the possibilty that you could in fact have your argument shown to be weak, then I guess there isn't any point in continuing.

Well there's the sticking point. The thing is, I HAVE had this debate before, and honestly, I just don't have the energy to go through it again, heh. I have a ton of coding staring me in the face right now and I just don't have the time today to get into it. For that I apologize, for I'm sure it would be a good one. It's not that I feel my arguments are weak, nor do I mind exposing them to allow someone to tear them down (I have certainly had that happen before, and have even changed my mind based on others arguments).

UO, Everquest, WoW, COH; they're all different than anything else that exists on the market as they are all different from each other - how is saying DDO is different from those a meaningful statement?

Well, what I meant was more that UO, EQ, WoW, CoH, etc are all more in the same vein than DDO is. I personally feel that DDO is in a class by itself. While sure, it is technically a MMOG, it has what I feel are *significant* play differences that make arguments that "All other MMOGs do it THIS way" less relevent. Not *totally irrelevent* mind you, just not as binding.

From a post you quoted and stated that you felt got across the same points you were trying to, it seems like your reasoning for being anti-twink is based on the perception that the devs are basing content around people having at least one of each of the big five and other uber gear.

Actually, yes and no. It also has a lot to do with Level 4 characters running around with twinked out gear, not necessarily just the big 5 weapons.

Yet you yourself say there's no comparison, no way to prove that. If it's all subjective then and unprovable then why would you think your argument would carry any weight?

There is no OBJECTIVE way (that I can think of) to quantify the difficulty of a dungeon. So all we have is our subjective opinions. And those are going to be quite different based on party make-up, equipment, player skill level, and so on. I can point at a new quest (as opposed to one that was here at launch) and say "this quest is harder than that quest, though they are the same CR level" and blame it on twinking (which is in fact the gist of my argument). The problem with that is the subjectivity, because you can come back and say you don't think that quest is any harder than this other quest at the same CR. And then we're stuck, because what we both have are subjective opinions, hehe. See what I mean?

Now, forgive me if this part sounds presumptuous, but I think I have a better grasp on the relative difficulties of the dungeons than most other people. Why? Because for about the last year I've been on a personal quest to solo DDO with an untwinked character. What that means is I've taken various builds (cause I'm always looking for the best solo build) and run them through the level 1-6 dungeons A LOT, heh. It takes out of the equation party make-up, equipment differences (since I'm untwinked), and player skill level (since it's always me playing). By doing that, I can get a pretty good idea of how they stack up against each other.

So when I say I think the newer dungeons are harder than the older ones, while it is still a very subjective opinion, I think it carries a bit of weight. Now, beyond level 6 I've run them less (many of my solo builds didn't work out beyond that level). I've soloed much of this game through level 8 or 9, but it's true that I have LESS of a good feel for the relative difficulties of those dungeons. And beyond level 9 I'm the same as everyone else, I've essentally only done them with groups or very twinked out, so my opinion on those is no better or worse than anyone else's.

You may think I'm arguing for one side over the other, but in reality I'm arguing for both to exist and be valid styles of play. Sure, WW on normal offers little challenge to fully twinked level 2-3's that's why there's hard and elite. For a group of untwinked levels 1-4 normal in most cases provides an adequate challenge.

And again, I would totally agree. They ARE both valid styles of play. BUT (isn't there always a but?, heh) the problem is that the play of others affects the way the game is designed. Which is the crux of my argument. If the devs didn't change how they designed content based on how people are equipped, I would have absolutely zero problem with twinking. But I honestly believe that is not the case. I take it you don't think that's true, which is fine. But I can tell you I think there is a fair bit of content in this game that my non-twinked characters will never get to run. It's the very reason why I have (reluctantly) begun to twink a couple of my characters, because I would like to see that content at some point, and I don't think I will ever get to unless I give in and give a couple of my characters the advantages that everyone else has.

Sure, we can agree to disagree but I'm always going to oppose suggestions to eliminate twinking, at least until somebody can convincingly argue why it is bad and provide some kind of good examples and proof.

You won't get proof. I can provide examples that I think support my argument, and we can go on to debate the points if you like. Somehow you are managing to drag me into a debate that I really didn't want to have again, LOL. Dang you! You're going to make me miss my deadline