Potential changes to healing amplification

[Severlin]

Greetings,

Today we want to discuss healing amplification. Our goal is to adjust it to be additive rather than multiplicative, in a way that benefits many players while minimizing the “nerf” to current players, particularly players who have created builds that extend into the extreme ranges of the current Healing Amplification system. We realize that any additive system will impact some players who are stacking Healing Amplification to the extreme, but in many cases this will have a beneficial or neutral impact to builds.

Why change it? We'd like introduce new sources of healing amplification on new items, but the team has been reluctant to do so with the current system because it is too powerful when stacked extremely high, and not good enough in small doses. With these changes we could add more items with healing amplification. We’d also like to give Barbarians lots of Healing Amplification as part of the Barbarian pass, but it just isn’t possible with our current multiplicative model.

Our current plan is to make Healing Amplification an additive rating and, to make it more effective in smaller doses, double the current values on enhancements and other sources of Healing Amplification. Healing Amplification would become a rating so it works just like Melee Power, Ranged Power and Spellpower. That is, Healing Amplification rating increases all healing by (100 + Rating) / 100. This would keep the game systems consistent. Repair Amplification would work the same, as well as values that allowed Pale Masters to heal with Negative Energy healing.

The current percentage values would be converted into a rating and then, to keep Healing Amplification competitive, the rating would be doubled. 10% Healing Amplification would become a rating of 20. 20% Healing Amplification would become a rating of 40.

To summarize:

~ Healing Amplication is turned into a rating which is additive.
~ Sources of Healing Amplication converted to an integer value and doubled.

As an example, the Human enhancement Improved Recovery would now give +20 Healing Amplification. If you also took the Paladin enhancement Vigor of Life from the Knight of the Chalice tree, it would provide +20 Healing Amplification for a total of 40. In this new case the character would increase all healing by a multiplier of 1.4 instead of a multiplier of 1.21.

Thus in smaller amounts players would see a buff.

What will this do to actual builds?

Let’s look at a build with healing amplification to see how it is affected.


Our first build has two Paladin past lives (currently 10%), healing amplification from Vigor of Life (currently 10%), a 30% healing amplification source, and a 20% healing amplification source.

On live this would be 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.3 * 1.2 for a total multiplier of ~1.887.

Under the new system this would be 20 + 20 + 60 + 40 for 140 Healing Amplification, which would be a multiplier to healing of 2.4 which is an increase in effectiveness.


Now let’s look at an extreme Human/Monk/Paladin hybrid build to see how high we can stack Healing Amplification currently.

Source			Multiplier	Product			
Base for Living		1		100%		12 Monk
Fleshmaker		1.1		110%		5 Paladin
Human 1			1.1		121%			
2			1.1		133%			
3			1.1		146%			
Monks Shintao		1.05		154%			
3			1.05		161%			
6			1.05		169%			
12			1.05		178%				
Paladin t3		1.1		196%			
Paladin 4		1.1		272%			
Paladin 5		1.1		272%			
Crown of Summer (Druid)	1.15		272%			
Item 10%		1.1		300%			
Item 20%		1.2		360%			
Item 30%		1.3		467%			
Paladin PL x3		1.15		538%			
Jidz-Tet'ka		1.25		672%			
Guild			1.1		739%			
Exalted Angel		1.03		761%			
Exalted Angel		1.03		784%			
Exalted Angel		1.04		816%			
Unyielding Sentinel	1.1		897%

How this would look with the new system:

Source			Multiplier	Product			
Base for Living		1.0		1.0		12 Monk
Fleshmaker		+20		1.2		5 Paladin
Human 1			+20		1.4			
2			+20		1.6			
3			+20		1.8			
Monks Shintao		+10		1.9			
3			+10		2.0			
6			+10		2.1			
12			+10		2.2			
Paladin t3		+20		2.4			
Paladin 4		+20		2.6			
Paladin 5		+20		2.8			
Crown of Summer (Druid)	+30		3.1			
Item 10%		+20		3.3			
Item 20%		+40		3.7			
Item 30%		+60		4.3			
Paladin PL x3		+30		4.6			
Jidz-Tet'ka		+50		5.1			
Guild			+20		5.3			
Exalted Angel		+6		5.36			
Exalted Angel		+6		5.42			
Exalted Angel		+8		5.5			
Unyielding Sentinel	+20		5.7

As you can see, this would be a buff to most builds, and a nerf to extreme Healing Amplication stacking because it’s additive. Any build that currently had less than 250% healing amplification would be buffed, while builds with more than 250% healing amplification would see a reduction in effectiveness.

Stacking
Our current plan is that all existing sources of healing amplification will stack as they do today, but they will be given various bonus types so players will be able to understand how they will stack with potential future items and enhancements.


When looking at these changes, players should know the following:

~ This system would allow us to start putting stacking Healing Amp on high level items again.
~ Barbarians would be getting sources of Healing Amplification in their trees.

Sev~

[JOTMON]

Monks and monk splashes still need healing amp to be survivable.
Especially since they cannot benefit from heavy armor or decent PRR without losing monk stance benefits.
Paladins benefit from healing amp self healing ability and the ability to wear heavy armor.

Keep this in mind so you don't mistakenly screw over monks & robe based monk splashes.

Wold be interested to see the comparison of How the impact is on lesser vampiric wraps and healing curse FOL from monk impacted


See finger necklace (Fleshmaker) on your list... this has always worked differently then other healing amp items. is this being standardized as well?
Jidz-Tet'ka - I would not double these. its a lower level item that should be replaced at endgame not sought after.
Item 10,20,30.. should stay 10,20,30... Add new rare items/augments that go higher.
Guild should not change. leave at 10. No reason for guild bonus to give increased benefit.


Jidz-Tet'ka and Fleshmaker should be removed from your comparison calculation , they are not ideal endgame items , they are only used for maxing out hamp... although your comparison is essentially theretical anyway for some sort of max amp build.


Can you look at consolidating the Repair amp, heal amp, negative amp into just heal amp.too many different sources makes it difficult to maintain versatility.
WF would have to mix and match repair amp and heal amp for incoming heals. PM's are already screwed for amp items.
Make them all the same and make any beneficial energy be amped by the same items/augments/destinies/etc.....

[streep101]

Don't see finger necklace on your list... this has always worked differently then other healing amp items.

It's the first item on the list: "Fleshmaker".

[FestusHood]

How will items stack? In your currently on live example you mention two separate items, one with 20%, and one with 30%. These would become 40 and 60 in the new system, and still stack?

Currently only items with different values stack. What would happen if i have two different items each with (currently) 30% heal amp on them? Would they be able to stack, or would they become redundant as they are on live now?

[EllisDee37]

Just to throw this out there:

A healing amp pass would be a great time to introduce healing amp augments, don't you think? Ideally yellow.

[EllisDee37]

My assumption is that items won't stack with each other. Either they stack, or they're doubled. Not both. Much like the dodge pass. It should still work out about right.


Worst case scenario, or at least a very unfavorable one for non-stacking, let's say a character with...
- nine 10% sources of non-item amp (3 human, 3 paladin, 1 divine crusader, 1 ship buff, 2 pally past lives)
- all three basic items (30%, 20% and 10%)

On live, that character has 1.1^9 * 1.1 * 1.2 * 1.3 ~ 4.046 amp

Under the new system, assuming non-stacking items, meaning the 30% item gives 60 and the 10% and 20% items literally do nothing, that works out to:

(100 + 20*9 + 60)/100 = 3.4 amp (4.0 if items stacked)

That's a bit of a nerf if the items no longer stack, so I can see why the initial idea has them stacking. Seems weird, though, since it would be the only item effect in the entire game that stacked with itself, right?



Now to consider an "average" amp build, let's say:
- four 10% sources of non-item amp (2 enhancements, 1 divine crusader, 1 ship buff)
- the "big two" items (30% and 20%)

On live, that character has 1.1^4 * 1.2 * 1.3 ~ 2.284 amp

Under the new system, assuming non-stacking items, meaning the 30% item gives 60 and 20% item literally does nothing, that works out to:

(100 + 20*4 + 60)/100 = 2.4 amp (2.8 if items stacked)


Despite being a devout healing amp guy, I'm thinking that items shouldn't stack. But of course you could introduce different types of amp that does stack. So say +60 competence on PDK gloves, iron mitts and eClaw, and +40 insightful on levik's bracers.

[PsychoBlonde]

Monks and monk splashes still need healing amp to be survivable.

Not really. Sure, it can be DESIRABLE, but it's not NECESSARY. I never found it worth wearing the godawful gear that you get stuck with.

[Uska]

Still not happy but not sounding as bad as I feared

[Bridge_Dweller]

Somebody translate this into and Excel formula for me? Thanks.

[blerkington]

Hi,

This looks better than what I was expecting. Well done.

One problem with healing amp gear is that it's concentrated in too few slots. Perhaps some more choice could be added for heal amp gear too.

Thanks.

[TPICKRELL]

Somebody translate this into and Excel formula for me? Thanks.

The formula is pretty simple. But heres the effects on my main:

Current:
Monk Cores: (1.05*1.05*1.05*1.05*1.05*1.05)= 1.34
Pally Past Lives 1.15
Ship buff 1.1
PDK Gloves: 1.3
DT (1.1* 1.2)=1.32
Divine Crusader=1.1
1.34*1.15*1.1*1.3*1.32*1.1= 3.19= 319%

New System:

Monk Cores 60
Pally Past Lives 30
Ship Buffs 10
PDK Gloves 60
DT (20+40)= 60
Divine Crusader=20
---------------------
60+30+10+60+60+20=240
(100+240)/100=3.4=340%

So my medium heavy AMP build will go up from 319 to 340.

[Vargouille]

We expect many sources of existing Healing Amp to gain explicit bonus types, mostly to make it more obvious and work like other effects in DDO, (but not with a goal of making them all the same bonus type). By and large we're expecting most things that currently stack to continue to stack, but with new bonus types that make this clear. This also means that current 30% items won't suddenly start stacking. They're likely to become +60 Healing Amp of a specific bonus type. Some sources of Healing Amp, such as Jidz-Tet'ka, already have explicit types.

Somebody translate this into and Excel formula for me? Thanks.

Old Healing Amp: Generally meant mutiply all the numbers together. 10% healing amp meant multiply by 1.10, so if you had three stacking sources of 10, 20, and 30% you're overall healing was 1.1 * 1.2 * 1.3 => 1.716 => 71.6% more healing.

New Healing Amp is just add up all the numbers as bonus healing. If you had 20 + 40 + 60, that's +120% more healing. The other way to look at the formula is (100 + HealingAmp) / 100 => (100 + 120) / 100 => 220 / 100 => 2.2 is the multiplier (which of course still means +120% healing).

Fleshmaker (AKA: Finger Necklace) has always been trying to do addition, not multiplication, which is why it was a bit ... squirrelly when mixed up in other things that did multiplication.

This change will only work on NEW items but old items such as GS Heal Amp Weapon, Finger of Necklace, PDK gloves, Iron Mitts will NOT have the new Healing Amp rating? Will we have to farm them AGAIN?

No. Old items will change. We won't be automatically changing old stuff into augments or whatnot; this isn't a pass for making many new items or new healing amplification sources (other than Barbarian).

[Dagolar]

Fleshmaker (AKA: Finger Necklace) has always been trying to do addition, not multiplication, which is why it was a bit ... squirrelly when mixed up in other things that did multiplication.

Please, do NOT nerf the effectiveness of Jidtz Tetka and Finger Necklace.

Now, this'll be the first time I've had interest in calling out a no-nerf, so hear me out-
My issue isn't with how it'll affect builds, but how it'll affect items.

I've frequently commented on what a shame it is that older items with unique characteristics have become useless.
Take Chattering Ring and Icy raiment- +3 Dodge AC wasn't a big deal- except that it was stackable, and rare. These items were decent for their level, but subpar at cap level- except for niche use of stacking this rare bonus.

So many items were like that [heck, if you wanted +1 stacking tohit, you could still use the goggles of insight from Korthos- nothing else at the time gave the bonus.].

It's good that we've moved away from being able to use Heroic Nat Gann's staff at level 20 with minimal difference to the Epic one-
stat bonuses aren't as relevant as item bonuses, now [especially with the monstrosities that are Thunder-Forged items, which have twice the dps of ML 24 named items (eg Skybreaker)].

But at the same time, item originality across the board has been DRAMATICALLY diminished, with most items feeling like carbon copies of one another.
There's no real 'oooh, look at that item, that's interesting' anymore in the game, just 'okay, this cap level item is way better, lets use it'.

It's.. very generic MMO.

Nevermind that nearly ALL old epic and old raid items are actually subpar for their level to begin with, now. Add in their lack of unique features, and everyone ignores them, even if they do care for an item that's only good for 2 to 4 levels above its ML (versus the old system of being able to carry weapons across multiple levels- the one lingering remnant of this is Greensteel items, which start at ML12 but can function reasonably well into the early 20s).

Okay, with all that in mind-

The sole reasons to get Jidtz Tetka and Finger Necklace was that they were unique. Even to their level, they're not particularly good. I mean, ML 13 for an item with just 10% healing amp? Really?


But, the fixes are actually quite simple-
Jidtz Tetka remains stacking insight and doubles to 50 (following the standard for other healing amp transitions). It'll lose potency, but still be reasonably effective for healing amp builds. [And I'm only noting Jidtz Tetka in here because some people were inexplicably calling for it to be nerfed. Like it has anything else going for it other than the healing amp..]

Fleshmaker turns INTO a multiplicative- the one single remaining example thereof.

In other words, once your rating is calculated, it multiples the end result by +10%.

Effectively functioning more or less the same as it does now, and making it still rather useful to farm out.


Lets say you manage a rating of 200:
( (100 + 200) / 100 = 300% Healing Amp )
Add in Finger Necklace:
( (100+200)*1.1 / 100 -> 330/100 = 330% Healing Amp )


At very high ranges it might end up being comparable to Jidtz Tetka, falling in the 50%+ range-
But for most builds, it'd be in the 20% to 40% range, being relatively comparable to other sources.




Again, my point here isn't about build nerfing or unnerfing or any such thing.
You can sort that bit of balance out as you want.

I'm just pointing out that if you keep destroying the interesting items in the game, there's not going to be anything left to the game BUT the max level content.
And at that point, we may as well just go play another MMO, because hey, been there done that- and they generally do items BETTER than the modern DDO (with raid items in other games usually lasting you 5 to 20 levels (depending on the level range of the game- in DDO terms, comparative would be about 10 levels)).
When's the last time a non-new raid had any interest to people?
Gods, look how badly butchered CITW became. First the items got terribly overwhelmed by the new lootgen system, then they got given out in droves for free, then the new named loot of COMPARABLE LEVEL outmatched them.

At the moment, the only raids worth running (for loot that's persistent for several levels) is Thunderholme and Orchard.

Ex: I can twink out a TR toon with a ML20 Antique Greataxe, move to a ML24 Skybreaker OR Tier 1 Thunder-Forged (They're sadly comparable in DPS), and move to a Tier2/Tier 3 Thunderforged at ML26/28.
There's no longer any 'oh, this weapon for this build lasts for quite a few levels', there are no more real unique flavor items like Epic Souleater.
It's become a pure linear progression game, favoring only TRing, nothing else.
If you're planning a single life toon, you'd wait till the very newest raids, and simply run them until you get what you need, then you're done.

More importantly, this means -everyone at cap is outfitted in the same general selection of gear-.

So yeah.

Generic MMO.

I got into DDO for the character building- which has EXPANDED over the years, so great work with the new enhancement system and epic destinies and iconics and everything- and the loot system, which mimics pen and paper persistent loot values.

Now, we've got a mess of half-broken (or fully brokn) outdated content that includes the vast majority of content that isn't Thunderholme or Orchard, most items are homogenized [ex, Bloodstone and Epic Mari Chain for Seeker isn't special anymore, Dream Visor went from best item to worst in a single update~]..



So, while I'm not going to yell or beg or whatever for you to go and do some cleaning up on the whole, and bring back the game elements I love-

I will make this lengthy rant trying to protect the sanctity of just these two items-
Because, we gotta make a stand at somewhere, and at some point, right?


But really, please keep this element of the game in mind when mechanics affecting old items-
And, if possible, keep it in mind when the idea of touching on older content comes across the table.


Thank you~!

PS: In the same vein, we need to see improved vampirism, improved boon of undeath, repair amp items, modern recon/heal on hit items, improved.. there are so many reasonable mechanics already in the game to work with for item versatility and uniqueness that -simply haven't been carried over into (even remotely) recent updates-.

Please, for the love of cake, stop just giving us the same effects everywhere. No, guardbreaking is nice, but we don't want it on every shield (and I know this is a bad example, given that it's just on two shields so far, and it'd actually be fine in general seeing it on just one more shield, except that all the other Orchard gear feels so generic that just cloning an existing effect feels like a cop-out). Yes, dodge is lovely, thank you, but we can get that everywhere. Oh, +1 more to stats than other items? Faaaaantastic. That'll totally pimp my build, and I'm so very glad I didn't have something interesting and still rare like Stealth Strike to consider on a comparable item instead.

Every item has the same effects these days- from stats to lootgen effects like dodge and doublestrike, to generic bonuses like +10 stacking spellpower or +2% stacking spell crit.
'Yay'.

Sure, you get some interesting ones, like Lantern Ring and Mystic Eidolons, I'm not trying to dismiss all recent items, just the majority of them.. and okay, maybe nearly all of Epic Orchard, yeah.

I'm just pointing out that the emphasis doesn't seem to favor those items, especially with older such items constantly being removed from viability or capability, meaning the overall scope is limited to just those at-level-cap items.

Okay. Done this time, really...

[Janitorman]

Major nerf to heal amp builds that already sacrificed, imo, too much as is just to get satisfying returns from CSW pots, fists of light, and vamp weapons. Having played several heal amp builds, to go all out as in the example above, you cut your effectiveness to the point that it is a fun flavor build for EH but huge slog in EE that is usually unsuccessful do to mob scaling. I can see that if higher tiers of Vampiric were ever to be introduced, heal amp might need to be reigned in, but 1-3 even x8 is still only 8-24.

As things are looking now, this is a huge boost to most builds, but sadly the death of heal amp builds. Glad I TRd my main into a heal amp build after seeing the initial panic so as to squeeze what little fun is left before the end.

Was secretly optimistic for new heal amp stuff to be introduced, now it won't even matter.

[Satyriasys]

Just remove healing amp and Monks. These things are ruining the game.

[Zavier]

Just remove healing amp and Monks. These things are ruining the game.

Just remove the "everyone gets a trophy for showing up" mentality. This thing is ruining the game.

[SilkofDrasnia]

Just remove the "everyone gets a trophy for showing up" mentality. This thing is ruining the game.

Aye, for myself this will be a buff as I have 3pally PL 30% item and 20% item and very very rarely use finger necklace, so good for me.

On the other hand I dislike how they seem keen on normalizing builds so we end up all having the same thing. The best thing about DDO is the variety of builds from super gimp to super min/max strong and I hate how they seem to want to get rid of this so every boy and his dog can get things with very little sacrifice.

So basically this a nerf to extreme heal amp builds (which are not very popular or powerful to begin with) and a buff to almost every other build.


Unfortunately this is also puts WF/BF and Palemaster builds at a comparative disadvantage as basically every other equally geared player will have greater healing power.


Can we see heal amp items changed OVERALL to increase repair/positive/negative energy? Rather then just one? This is sorely needed.

Must agree, if they are going this route make hamp like the heal skill adding to both pos and neg at least. I leave out repair cause well I dislike toasters...so up with humanity and down the with the machine

[General_Gronker]

Just remove the "everyone gets a trophy for showing up" mentality. This thing is ruining the game.

A. It doesn't have that mentality, so that is a baseless complaint.
B. I pay for this game. That means I should get a trophy. So where's my **** trophy?

Ideally yellow.

No. Yellow has enough **** already. They should be colorless. Because there are tons of utterly useless colorless slots on the gear right now.

[Shinjiteru]

As already mentioned, but some probably didn't read it. This change to hamp is caused by the barb revamp and the desire to give them more hamp in their own tree + give them enough hamp to survive without gimping barb dps.
Barbarian class was hit most(after bards) by the rise of the self heal builds + power creep of other classes. The current hamp system wouldn't work out for this idea.

I also think that the hamp of random gear shouldn't stack. Because I doubt this would work out in the future to hand out hamp as a random loot gen enhancement again. And with the new hamp rating... if you already have 80 from ML 30 items + Pally PL and some other hamp enhancements even the 20 rating of a random gear would hardly be worth the item slot it uses. But I think all named gear should stay stacking for now, since older items are usually already hit by 1-2 mechanic changes which made them weaker than random loot of same level.

And I am suggesting that although I still have several 10% and 20% hamp bracers.

To make up for that just include hamp 40 augments (and later mabye 60) which are stacking with everything in the next update(and maybe add hamp 20 augments to the GH vendors).

Yes this would hit the extreme builds but I would like to see a change to the current mechanic that would allow hamp on random loot somewhen in the future again. And I don't want to have random loot with 3 different types because all other changes to item stats look like Turbine doesn't want that either, so that this would change in the future anyways before we are seeing hamp on random loot again.


Apart from that it would be interesting to know how the wf and bf reduced base hamp would work in the new system (and the enhancements that increased the base hamp). If it's just a stacking -50 hamp(or -100 because of double amounts? ) and the enhancements value gets doubles as well it would make it easier to get a decent hamp on a wf/bf.
If it remains like it is today then it would be fine as well, especially wf barbarians need an easier way to get a positive hamp value in the current state of the game.

[FestusHood]

A. It doesn't have that mentality, so that is a baseless complaint.
B. I pay for this game. That means I should get a trophy. So where's my **** trophy?


No. Yellow has enough **** already. They should be colorless. Because there are tons of utterly useless colorless slots on the gear right now.

It kind of does have that mentality, since after these changes everybody will have a heal amp build.

Almost every one of my yellow augment slots is currently filled with a colorless augment.

Why do i need featherfall or water breathing on all the time? Why do i need proof against poison or disease augments, which, as far as i can tell, don't do anything useful? Why do i need to permanently slot individual elemental resistances when i can use a ship buff, cast a spell, or drink a pot for it?