U45 Preview 2: Balance: Two Handed Fighting Changes

[A-O]

I tried all forms of twitch fighting (canceling 2nd, 3rd and 4th animation) all tests were roughly 51 attacks for the duration of a reconstruct on BAB 15 paladin, so 102 attack per minute approx. I got 106 attacks per minute hasted @ BAB 30 with both greataxe and greatsword. So slightly faster if you stand still, slightly slower if you move around chasing mobs, and significantly slower twitch fighting(obviously)

It's safe to assume that their increase of attack 3 and 4 isn't working then, considering that's basically the same aspd we're seeing live atm without twitching.

Bug, oversight, or intended. Hopefully we can get a dev reply on that.

[Monkey_Archer]

It's safe to assume that their increase of attack 3 and 4 isn't working then, considering that's basically the same aspd we're seeing live atm without twitching.

Bug, oversight, or intended. Hopefully we can get a dev reply on that.

They didn't just speed up animation 3 and 4. They created an entirely different animation set, with completely different attack timings for all 4 attacks (all roughly equal duration now)

[dumbbunny]

Feats
[LIST][*]Combat Style Feats

• The Two Handed Fighting Feat is now: "While Two-Handed Fighting: +20% Strikethrough Chance. You can now Strikethrough while moving. You also gain a +2 Combat Style bonus to Melee Power while Two-Handed Fighting. For the purpose of this feat, you are considered to be Two-Handed Fighting while using a Two-Handed Melee Weapon (not including Handwraps). You are also considered to be Two-Handed Fighting while wielding a Bastard Sword or Dwarven Waraxe in your main hand and a Shield, Orb, Rune Arm, or Nothing in your off-hand. You are not considered to be Two-Handed Fighting while in Wild Shape. While using a Two Handed Weapon (not including Bastard Sword or Dwarven Waraxe), your Ability Score bonus to damage improves to 2x the Ability Score you use for damage. "
• The Improved Two Handed Fighting Featis now: "While Two-Handed Fighting: +20% additional Strikethrough Chance. You also gain a +4 Combat Style bonus to Melee Power while Two-Handed Fighting. While using a Two Handed Weapon (not including Bastard Sword or Dwarven Waraxe), your Ability Score bonus to damage improves to 2.5x the Ability Score you use for damage."
• The Greater Two Handed Fighting Feat is now: "While Two-Handed Fighting: +20% additional Strikethrough Chance. You also gain a +6 Combat Style bonus to Melee Power while Two-Handed Fighting. While using a Two Handed Weapon (not including Bastard Sword or Dwarven Waraxe), your Ability Score bonus to damage improves to 3x the Ability Score you use for damage. "
• The Perfect Two Handed Fighting Feat is now: "While Two-Handed Fighting: You gain +20% Strikethrough Chance. You also gain a +10 Combat Style bonus to Melee Power while Two-Handed Fighting. "

This might be too much. The power gamer in me likes it but it might be too much. 3x ability score is a lot.

[Monkey_Archer]

This might be too much. The power gamer in me likes it but it might be too much. 3x ability score is a lot.

I would hesitate to say "too much" considering we currently have inquisitives, fire savants, wolves and all sorts of other interesting things on live currently... However, I would not be surprised if a few very specific level 30 crit maxed THF builds start competing for the top dps spot.

[J-mann]

I would hesitate to say "too much" considering we currently have inquisitives, fire savants, wolves and all sorts of other interesting things on live currently... However, I would not be surprised if a few very specific level 30 crit maxed THF builds start competing for the top dps spot.

I'm not sure how this is considered a bad thing and even then I'm not seeing them compete with sorcs in non raid content. Especially if we are stuck with the stupid low amount of strikethrough the dev's seem set on since none of them want to address it.

[Selvera]

Suffice to say, I'm none too enchanted by the dev's idea to give 2 handed fighting an identity as a multiple target attacking build by limiting their AoE to 2-3 targets while simultaneously nerfing hand-and-a-half weapons and thief acrobats severely.

I've been tempted to run some numbers to show things like the average number of attacks needed to kill a typical group of 6 mobs in a level 6/12/20/30 quest for a typical 2 handed fighting build on the live servers (glancing blows) vs on Lamannia (strikethough) to put into perspective the relative power of this change.

But, I happen to be a level 5 fighter on live right now using the 2 handed style and Lamannia is up. Devs love looking at videos of people testing stuff out on Lamannia right? So I plan to record a video of me playing through the same 4 quests on the live servers (with glancing blows) and on Lam (with strikethough) and compare how quickly I finish them and how easy it felt. Same gear, same feats, same build, same pastlives same character.

I'll post my results probably later today.

Edit: I guess you can't character transfer while worlds are down? Might take me a bit longer to get results. Lamannia seems to be overly restrictive and tiny timeframe of availability like usual.

[SerPounce]

To follow up my comment in the pally thread, any thoughts on how silvanus should play with the rest of the 2HF landscape? I kind of assumed a 2HF buff would include a nerf to silvanus, but there’s no mention at all. Silvanus alone beats most capstones not to mention the other benefits of a splash. And it completely dominates any other divine 2HF builds.

I’ve played a ton of silvanus builds at this point, but I’m getting sick of being limited to FR iconic if I want a decent 2HF Melee divine.

[dunsndras]

Please clarify: "You are not considered to be Two-Handed Fighting while in Wild Shape"

So... elemental forms are wild shapes. I understand this for bear and wolf, but you're saying I cant grip a two handed weapon in ele form? Please explain the design logic of this, I'm truly baffled.

[DagazUlf]

Hi all, we have a static group using transferred characters for the U45 Previews that has been questing on Lamannia and then immediately back to Live for comparison.

Since I have been playing a THF pure fighter for the entirety of DDO, here is my feedback on this latest iteration of changes. (I'm a tactics-based THF with a high Dire Charge, Stunning Blow, Trips, etc. )

Pros
- I like the new animations. They are more realistic, and the greatsword version is pretty cool.

Cons
- I am not doing as much damage to as many things as I did with glancing blows.

Narrative
- One of the quests we chose to compare was Grim and Barett, since a THF usually rocks in there with the tight spaces and groups of monsters.
On Live, my screen is just flooded with damage numbers, and since I changed my numbers to a vivid red for killing blows I usually see a lot of red numbers as well.
On Lammy.... it's meh. Maybe 2/3 as many damage numbers all over the screen. Much fewer red numbers. Much lower down in the total kill count (not a great indicator, but still).
The same with our White Plume Mountain run and the House J quests.

I have to say, I don't feel like Strikethrough is doing whatever it was supposed to do. While I've gained a neat new animation, my damage and gameplay overall feel less impactful than what we currently have. Honestly, it's fairly underwhelming.

-DagazUlf

[Lynnabel]

Please clarify: "You are not considered to be Two-Handed Fighting while in Wild Shape"

So... elemental forms are wild shapes. I understand this for bear and wolf, but you're saying I cant grip a two handed weapon in ele form? Please explain the design logic of this, I'm truly baffled.

We do specifically mean Wild Shape: Wolf, Bear, Winter Wolf, Dire Bear - the ones that use Natural Fighting as their Combat Style instead of the Combat Style that matches the weapon they wield. Are the other Wild Shapes locking out THF?

[Vish]

Enhancements
Monk Enhancements
* Henshin cores grant 10mp per core to Quarterstaffs, 3mp otherwise


And for our sake,
Fix Ki Shout

V

[Havocthedemon]

Enhancements
Monk Enhancements
* Henshin cores grant 10mp per core to Quarterstaffs, 3mp otherwise


And for our sake,
Fix Ki Shout

V

I’d love for henshin to be good again. You know how much I loved using Sireth? I ran CiTW SO many times to get that thing

[dunsndras]

We do specifically mean Wild Shape: Wolf, Bear, Winter Wolf, Dire Bear - the ones that use Natural Fighting as their Combat Style instead of the Combat Style that matches the weapon they wield. Are the other Wild Shapes locking out THF?

OK thank you, that's what i hoped. I'm not on Lamannia to confirm that, unfortunately. The issue then was the wording of the thread "You are not considered to be Two-Handed Fighting while in Wild Shape". Technically Wild Shape includes ele forms so that didn't really sit right with me to penalize ele forms using a quarterstaff above all other builds that can wield a quarterstaff as a melee weapon. Appreciate the clarification!

[Lynnabel]

OK thank you, that's what i hoped. I'm not on Lamannia to confirm that, unfortunately. The issue then was the wording of the thread "You are not considered to be Two-Handed Fighting while in Wild Shape". Technically Wild Shape includes ele forms so that didn't really sit right with me to penalize ele forms using a quarterstaff above all other builds that can wield a quarterstaff as a melee weapon. Appreciate the clarification!

Don't sweat it, I'd rather check than let something like this slip through our fingers. To be 100% sure I just jumped in myself and verified - Fire and Water Elemental definitely use Two-Handed Fighting Feats and can strikethrough appropriately.

[dunsndras]

Don't sweat it, I'd rather check than let something like this slip through our fingers. To be 100% sure I just jumped in myself and verified - Fire and Water Elemental definitely use Two-Handed Fighting Feats and can strikethrough appropriately.

you rock! Thanks for check and your diligence.

[Selvera]

So I plan to record a video of me playing through the same 4 quests on the live servers (with glancing blows) and on Lam (with strikethough) and compare how quickly I finish them and how easy it felt. Same gear, same feats, same build, same pastlives same character.

I'll post my results probably later today.

Test complete; videos can be found here:

Live Servers: https://youtu.be/__6coddqtrk
Lamannia: https://youtu.be/NXGnzd99xy4

With the exception of fire caves I completed all the other quests faster on the live servers and in general they felt easier (especially irestone). Fire caves was the same duration on live as lamannia and felt easier on lamannia - mostly due to a reaper at the start and a champ ogre at the end of the fire caves run on live.

My conclusions are sort of like this: First of all; the amount of pastlives/reaper points/gear that I have vastly overpowers such low level quests on a low level character and regardless of before/after the change it's still pretty fast/easy to complete these quests. Secondly; Strikethrough does not appear to give superior damage to glancing blows most or all of the time in regular questing, at best 2hf builds are on par as before at low levels, and isn't as good at killing large mobs of enemies.

[palladin9479]

Yes this is mostly going to be a nerf with a handful of useful side cases.

Most of the Dev's "update" idea's are just nerfs in one disguise or another. It's because they rarely listen to negative player feedback while focusing on positive.

[GroundhogDay]

Don't sweat it, I'd rather check than let something like this slip through our fingers. To be 100% sure I just jumped in myself and verified - Fire and Water Elemental definitely use Two-Handed Fighting Feats and can strikethrough appropriately.

Are you or the one with too many forum signatures ever going to address the concerns about ST not being AoE when it hits just a couple of targets at lvl 26? You seem to be focusing on everything except that and i wonder why... Well, that's not true, i think i know why... You spent time on a bad idea and now you feel it would be a loss of time and money to scrap it completely. Also i imagine it would be a glancing blow to someone's pride.

[Monkey_Archer]

Test complete; videos can be found here:

Live Servers: https://youtu.be/__6coddqtrk
Lamannia: https://youtu.be/NXGnzd99xy4

With the exception of fire caves I completed all the other quests faster on the live servers and in general they felt easier (especially irestone). Fire caves was the same duration on live as lamannia and felt easier on lamannia - mostly due to a reaper at the start and a champ ogre at the end of the fire caves run on live.

My conclusions are sort of like this: First of all; the amount of pastlives/reaper points/gear that I have vastly overpowers such low level quests on a low level character and regardless of before/after the change it's still pretty fast/easy to complete these quests. Secondly; Strikethrough does not appear to give superior damage to glancing blows most or all of the time in regular questing, at best 2hf builds are on par as before at low levels, and isn't as good at killing large mobs of enemies.

Roughly the same impressions I got testing a level 15 bladeforged paladin.
Glancing blows scaled off of all base damage (available at low levels) and partially off effects, whereas the new THF scales only off of high attribute mod (only available at high levels). The closer you are to a level 30 Kensai with 100% doublestrike, the better these changes are, the further away from level 30 and kensai, the more this is going to be a nerf.

[Stravix]

Are you or the one with too many forum signatures ever going to address the concerns about ST not being AoE when it hits just a couple of targets at lvl 26? You seem to be focusing on everything except that and i wonder why... Well, that's not true, i think i know why... You spent time on a bad idea and now you feel it would be a loss of time and money to scrap it completely. Also i imagine it would be a glancing blow to someone's pride.

Ok, dial it back a bit. It is fair to ask questions, but you don't have to be a **** about it. People acting like this is the EXACT reason why the devs never answer some of this stuff. Please at least attempt to hide that toxicity while contacting someone in a professional setting, hell, someone in any setting.