U45 Preview 2: Balance: Two Handed Fighting Changes

[Mercantile_Joe]

This might be too much. The power gamer in me likes it but it might be too much. 3x ability score is a lot.

Let me add on to the too much argument, but a bit tangentially. I copied a wolf build over out of curiosity just to see... and yep.. If you are a wolf build with a maul and have the feats to do so, you can take the three THF feats along with the 3 Natural Fighting feats to get 3x ability modifier on your attacks.

GUURK. Is this WAI? I would have to assume not but intended or not, it is a monster DPS boost to that specific wolf build. I suggest that at the very least you make Natural Fighting / THF exclusive based on whichever you pick up first.

[Mercantile_Joe]

We do specifically mean Wild Shape: Wolf, Bear, Winter Wolf, Dire Bear - the ones that use Natural Fighting as their Combat Style instead of the Combat Style that matches the weapon they wield. Are the other Wild Shapes locking out THF?

Ummm... you may not get the ST on these attacks but you are currently getting the 3x ability modifier.

[Monkey_Archer]

Let me add on to the too much argument, but a bit tangentially. I copied a wolf build over out of curiosity just to see... and yep.. If you are a wolf build with a maul and have the feats to do so, you can take the three THF feats along with the 3 Natural Fighting feats to get 3x ability modifier on your attacks.

GUURK. Is this WAI? I would have to assume not but intended or not, it is a monster DPS boost to that specific wolf build. I suggest that at the very least you make Natural Fighting / THF exclusive based on whichever you pick up first.

lol. shhh

[Lynnabel]

lol. shhh

We're well aware, sorry to rain on your parade. If you'd like to take a look at some weirdness, though, the first Bear attack doesn't actually gain the benefits of the mod :P wild, right?

[Monkey_Archer]

We're well aware, sorry to rain on your parade. If you'd like to take a look at some weirdness, though, the first Bear attack doesn't actually gain the benefits of the mod :P wild, right?

Oh its not my parade, I don't play wolves. I'm just here hoping that my bottom tier build ideas don't get kicked under the bus further

[Ahwaric]

Ok, dial it back a bit. It is fair to ask questions, but you don't have to be a **** about it. People acting like this is the EXACT reason why the devs never answer some of this stuff. Please at least attempt to hide that toxicity while contacting someone in a professional setting, hell, someone in any setting.

While I agree that it was too acidic, I understand where it is coming from.
We have politely posted many arguments showing that the THF changes, advertised as improvements are actually a nerf. Also, modified THF has less AOE flavour and makes some weapons very poor choice. It is supported with tests - running the same quests on live and the current Lammania build. I can't imagine a better proof.

Yet, there is not a single line of comment on the state of THF from the devs. And the 'fix' from preview 1 to 2 is not that great either, as it does not adress AOE and 1,5 handers part, while creating some problems elsewhere (like Sylvanus mauler, or wolf mauler above ).
Mistakes happen, but it is wise to try to fix them and listen to feedback. I am posting here, because I believe the Devs are reading it, and I they react to feedback better than many other game developers. But I am beginning to lose hope - and I think the poster you are refering to already did and is bitter about the silence.
As I said, I understand why Lynnabel responds to the discussion like it involved only wild shape side of things, which is perhaps 15% or the posts (thanks for the clarificastion regarding elemental shape btw, I am running my dwarf in water elemental and glancing blows always worked, I used all THF line of feats). But still, I would like someone to answer our other questions.

[J-mann]

Ok, dial it back a bit. It is fair to ask questions, but you don't have to be a **** about it. People acting like this is the EXACT reason why the devs never answer some of this stuff. Please at least attempt to hide that toxicity while contacting someone in a professional setting, hell, someone in any setting.

In fairness the nice route isn't working, there has been repeatedly no dev response to the low values of strike through or the vastly over priced enhancements. There further has been no addressing on making cleaves useful again. Their actions are definitely not giving the playerbase the feeling that Lama isn't just a preview server that 90+% of the changes go through as is despite dev comments to the otherwise. Maybe if they actually addressed the concerns of multi target scenarios and the ridiculous cap and low st values they would have less issues of people feeling this way?

[mamant91]

Overall the new animations seem disjointed. At first I thought this was just lag on lammania, but after further testing there are a few glaring issues. The 'swing sound' does not line up with the animation (this is most notable on the first moving animation) nor does it line up with when the hit actually lands on target. Its something like: 'swing sound' -> 0.2 seconds later -> sword swing animation -> 0.2 seconds later -> hit registers on target. Feels terrible. Also makes timing attacks on moving targets really difficult because you basically have to ignore both the sound and the animation. This could be my imagination, but the range seems shorter as well.

Also, for those wondering, yes twitch fighting is dead. All swing speeds are roughly identical regardless of which animations you cancel.


DPS test vs live: My THF EK (already a gimped flavor build) was seeing roughly equal dps on single target while standing still. Considering twitch fighting is gone, this means its a nerf relative to live. Glancing blows vs Strikethrough seems neither better nor worse, just different.

Done some tests outside of laggy Dojo, used portal inside Aussircaex Valley slayer zone. All test done with 30 BAB, Haste + Haste Boost, 0% Doublestrike

Videos from Live server: Great Sword, Great Axe
Videos from Lama server, preview 2: Great Sword, Great Axe

Old and new animation have same numbers of hits +-1, no improvements in overall swing speed. Twitching is dead, confirmed.

To summarize THF "improvements" :
1. Single target DPS is worse at top tier THF builds like 20 Kensei, 18 Kensei splashes, 20 Barb for example (see above + Divine Might changes + loss of glancing blows - x3 stat mod and extra 10 mp in PTHF is not enough to compensate, sadly);
2. Two - two and a half target "AOE" DPS and tactics is better at first glance (new Strikethrough mechanics, most special attacks allow to Strikethrough);
3. Proper AOE (3+ targets) DPS is obviously worse (loss of Glancing Blows on basic attacks and Cleave attacks);

Overall, if developers' vision of THF style is strictly limited to 2-2.5 targets only, then this part of U45 is a success. Otherwise - not so much.

[J-mann]

While I agree that it was too acidic, I understand where it is coming from.
We have politely posted many arguments showing that the THF changes, advertised as improvements are actually a nerf. Also, modified THF has less AOE flavour and makes some weapons very poor choice. It is supported with tests - running the same quests on live and the current Lammania build. I can't imagine a better proof.

Yet, there is not a single line of comment on the state of THF from the devs. And the 'fix' from preview 1 to 2 is not that great either, as it does not adress AOE and 1,5 handers part, while creating some problems elsewhere (like Sylvanus mauler).
Mistakes happen, but it is wise to try to fix them and listen to feedback. I am posting here, because I believe the Devs are reading it, and I they react to feedback better than many other game developers. But I am beginning to lose hope - and I think the poster you are refering to already did and is bitter about the silence.

Pretty much this. At least we aren't the stealth crowd we at least get useless posts about strike through working while moving repeatedly that fellow forum members can answer rather than responses to issues we cannot such as why st values are so low and the vastly overpriced enhancements for strikethrough.

[Lynnabel]

But I am beginning to lose hope - and I think the poster you are refering to already did and is bitter about the silence.

It's been about 24 hours since the release of the second preview. Forgive us if we try to plan out our responses before we're 100% sure in the direction we would like to proceed - iterating and testing and everything in between takes time. We don't want to promise things we can't actually deliver.

There's a developer event tonight on Lamannia - you're more than welcome to attend and ask us these questions and more :)

[Mercantile_Joe]

We're well aware, sorry to rain on your parade. If you'd like to take a look at some weirdness, though, the first Bear attack doesn't actually gain the benefits of the mod :P wild, right?

Lynn, I assume this means that this is not-WAI and you are working on a fix. I will admit that it's umm... exciting... to look at your weapon and see +160 damage modifier and know that you are still far from one of the "top builds".

[palladin9479]

In fairness the nice route isn't working, there has been repeatedly no dev response to the low values of strike through or the vastly over priced enhancements. There further has been no addressing on making cleaves useful again. Their actions are definitely not giving the playerbase the feeling that Lama isn't just a preview server that 90+% of the changes go through as is despite dev comments to the otherwise. Maybe if they actually addressed the concerns of multi target scenarios and the ridiculous cap and low st values they would have less issues of people feeling this way?

As I've said before, Dev's like to respond to positive feedback while turning an eye to negative feedback. It creates this system where they think the community agrees with them when the exact opposite is true. It's at the point where the community doesn't want to report exploits and broken mechanics out of fear more nerfs would happen.

[palladin9479]

It's been about 24 hours since the release of the second preview. Forgive us if we try to plan out our responses before we're 100% sure in the direction we would like to proceed - iterating and testing and everything in between takes time. We don't want to promise things we can't actually deliver.

There's a developer event tonight on Lamannia - you're more than welcome to attend and ask us these questions and more

Large amounts of feedback where provided on Preview 1 that hasn't been addressed and is still present in Preview 2, plus you guys nerfed even more things on Preview 2. I've done a dozen or so posts on the math behind the KoTC Divine Might nerf and how ugly it is for Paladin, yet crickets.

[Stravix]

It's been about 24 hours since the release of the second preview. Forgive us if we try to plan out our responses before we're 100% sure in the direction we would like to proceed - iterating and testing and everything in between takes time. We don't want to promise things we can't actually deliver.

There's a developer event tonight on Lamannia - you're more than welcome to attend and ask us these questions and more

Thank you for acknowledging that you guys are looking into it. Hopefully some additional tweaks can be made to address the issues that people have from their testing.

[Ahwaric]

It's been about 24 hours since the release of the second preview. Forgive us if we try to plan out our responses before we're 100% sure in the direction we would like to proceed - iterating and testing and everything in between takes time. We don't want to promise things we can't actually deliver.

There's a developer event tonight on Lamannia - you're more than welcome to attend and ask us these questions and more

I know, and as I said, I understand why you personally do not want to say anything in detail. Or why is no definite answer or proposed solution yet. Still, this is the post I was waiting on and thank you for posting it .
And truth is, I posted my concerns a bit earlier than 24 hours ago here, so my perception of the time it takes to answer might be a bit different
Ok, waiting then, and back to work. I have a deadline, so might not be able to get to the event, sadly - though I am happy there is one.

[GroundhogDay]

It's been about 24 hours since the release of the second preview. Forgive us if we try to plan out our responses before we're 100% sure in the direction we would like to proceed - iterating and testing and everything in between takes time. We don't want to promise things we can't actually deliver.

There's a developer event tonight on Lamannia - you're more than welcome to attend and ask us these questions and more

If that is true then i would suggest putting ST on hold until a later date, but history tells me you'll just go through with it as it is and be done with it. You promised a buff to 2hf and had no problems not delivering it. I stand by my previous post wholeheartedly.

[J-mann]

It's been about 24 hours since the release of the second preview. Forgive us if we try to plan out our responses before we're 100% sure in the direction we would like to proceed - iterating and testing and everything in between takes time. We don't want to promise things we can't actually deliver.

There's a developer event tonight on Lamannia - you're more than welcome to attend and ask us these questions and more

Lynn the complaints on the low values of strike through and the absurd cap have existed since preview 1 and we've seen no dev answer abou their thoughts on it. Further with the removal of gbs we've seen nothing on addressing proc based builds ala KOTCs light damage which worked on gbs. Additionally we have seen nothing about the rational for the vastly overpriced enhancements for st nor the massive nerf to rogue acrobats with no compensation. Additionally the nerds to 1.5 hand weapons isn't being addressed nor has concerns about cleaves nor the near and dear of melee defensive stats being identical to ranged despite being hit vastly more often. None of these are concerns that have been changed nor addressed by the dev team and have been present since preview 1. I'm not trying to shoot the messenger (you) but just ignoring your playerbase concerns (not specifically referring to you) is doing the dev team no favors. And refusing to address these concerns (and these are just for the 2hf thread, the ranged thread is just as bad) is just reinforcing the player belief that once on lam it's set since only minor changes have occurred despite the feedback.

[palladin9479]

If that is true then i would suggest putting ST on hold until a later date, but history tells me you'll just go through with it as it is and be done with it. You promised a buff to 2hf and had no problems not delivering it. I stand by my previous post wholeheartedly.

The code has already been written, it will go to live even if it breaks the game.

So far the only changes between Preview 1 and 2 are minor tweaks, pretty much all the broken mechanics are present almost with them breaking even more mechanics and nerfing the stuff they said they would buff.

So I guess to SSG develops, "improve" means "nerf".

And refusing to address these concerns (and these are just for the 2hf thread, the ranged thread is just as bad) is just reinforcing the player belief that once on lam it's set since only minor changes have occurred despite the feedback.

There hasn't been an update yet where this didn't happen. If it's on Lam it's going to live in one form or another. In one of the other threads I explained it's because Lam is the User Acceptance Testing (UAT) of the Software Development Life Cycle (SDLC). Once something gets to UAT all the major decisions have been made and they are just fine tuning the code before release. We can think of UAT as a final set of beta tests to catch bugs that might of made it past Quality Assurance (QA) testing.

Hasn't everyone noticed how they are really just focusing on bugs and not how bad some of the changes are?

[Monkey_Archer]

It's been about 24 hours since the release of the second preview. Forgive us if we try to plan out our responses before we're 100% sure in the direction we would like to proceed - iterating and testing and everything in between takes time. We don't want to promise things we can't actually deliver.

There's a developer event tonight on Lamannia - you're more than welcome to attend and ask us these questions and more

As a developer minded person I completely understand this, but from a player perspective it just looks like all concerns are being ignored. Acknowledgement and even a vague response could go a long way here.

Let me offer a constructive PR blueprint...

"-It was not our intention to nerf Bastard swords and Dwarvern axes, and are working on a solution <insert solution here if one is ready>
-It was not our intention to nerf non-crit effects based build such as vile chemist/EK/KOTC/rogues/etc.. and are working on a solution <insert solution here if one is ready>
-We currently believe that strikethrough is performing comparatively to glancing blows for AOE damage, but are still testing and may increase the base change from 20% to 30-50% or <insert better idea here>
Thank you for your feedback"

[palladin9479]

As a developer minded person I completely understand this, but from a player perspective it just looks like all concerns are being ignored. Acknowledgement and even a vague response could go a long way here.

Let me offer a constructive PR blueprint...

"-It was not our intention to nerf Bastard swords and Dwarvern axes, and are working on a solution <insert solution here if one is ready>
-It was not our intention to nerf non-crit effects based build such as vile chemist/EK/KOTC/rogues/etc.. and are working on a solution <insert solution here if one is ready>
-We currently believe that strikethrough is performing comparatively to glancing blows for AOE damage, but are still testing and may increase the base change from 20% to 30-50% or <insert better idea here>
Thank you for your feedback"

If they respond to something then they are acknowledging it exists, if they ignore it then to them it doesn't exist.

I know that sounds crazy but i work with developers all day every day, it's really a thing.