U45 Preview 2: Balance: Two Handed Fighting Changes

[darknoobslayer]

Agree. The main downside of DoD is that you have to hit something to activate it, which is cumbersome and can miss. It also has a fairly small radius, and I'm not sure how this compares to ST. Otherwise it's just plain better than ST. The reason there isn't a ton of Tempests right now is because ranged is just easier/better than any melee build. If they boost melee survivability across the board, Tempest will for sure be a top choice again. Previously, DoD working with (some?) special attacks was not WAI. Now it is WAI, so that also suddenly got more attractive even if DoD # targets was reduced a bit. If they buff cleaves enough, THF might at least outdo them in large-scale AoE though.

Didn't they remove the on hit with this update? Someone said ST works like dod currently does on live would have to confirm it with someone who's tested it on lamannia. I forgot about about the special attacks working that's another added bonus. Sunder looks pretty nice for tempest but I don't know about trip and stunning blow. Are they worth it with the animations and lower dcs? I agree a cleave buff would help.

[palladin9479]

Yes they removed the on-hit +damage part of DoD, it's now a straight DPS clicky like One Cut and such. That's an acceptable benefit for losing the fourth target. Now it's 10s duration / 15s recast and hit two extra targets on each attack. The target range is really tight though, like they need to be directly in your frontal cone of attack of about 120 degrees.

This is why I believe they used Dance Of Death as a baseline for StrikeThrough, ST as described works exactly like DoD except weaker as they put an effective cap of +1 target due to really low scaling from feats. Right now all they need to do is raise the benefit from feats from 20% to 40% and it'll be fine for THF.

40% Base
+40% x 4 Feat (THF,ITHF,GTHF,PTHF)

+200% Total for one primary and two nearby targets per swing.

Then it can go up a little for a chance at a fourth target for builds that specialize in that.

At that point THF will have a reason to exist, generally behind every other melee build except when they can get mobs clustered around them, which is incredibly dangerous. We got good DPS for a trade off of it being situational and risky to do. Pulling the aggro of 3~4 monsters in Elite or Reaper is a good way to take a few thousand HP of damage if someone isn't careful.

This has all been suggested to the Devs btw. The question now is which devs are being stubborn and of the belief that a Barb / Fighter able to reliably hit more then two monsters is "Over Powered" when casters and raged can just clear the room in seconds.

[darknoobslayer]

Yes they removed the on-hit +damage part of DoD, it's now a straight DPS clicky like One Cut and such. That's an acceptable benefit for losing the fourth target. Now it's 10s duration / 15s recast and hit two extra targets on each attack. The target range is really tight though, like they need to be directly in your frontal cone of attack of about 120 degrees.

This is why I believe they used Dance Of Death as a baseline for StrikeThrough, ST as described works exactly like DoD except weaker as they put an effective cap of +1 target due to really low scaling from feats. Right now all they need to do is raise the benefit from feats from 20% to 40% and it'll be fine for THF.

40% Base
+40% x 4 Feat (THF,ITHF,GTHF,PTHF)

+200% Total for one primary and two nearby targets per swing.

Then it can go up a little for a chance at a fourth target for builds that specialize in that.

At that point THF will have a reason to exist, generally behind every other melee build except when they can get mobs clustered around them, which is incredibly dangerous. We got good DPS for a trade off of it being situational and risky to do. Pulling the aggro of 3~4 monsters in Elite or Reaper is a good way to take a few thousand HP of damage if someone isn't careful.

This has all been suggested to the Devs btw. The question now is which devs are being stubborn and of the belief that a Barb / Fighter able to reliably hit more then two monsters is "Over Powered" when casters and raged can just clear the room in seconds.

Been a while since I've run a tempest but a friend I regularly run with does and said with the tight range he hardly sees a 4th target hit unless fighting something like rats. If they did give the thf line 40% would it put them ahead of tempest in terms of aoe dps? I'm not saying they should nerf tempest just that thf should be at the top when it comes to melee aoe damage as the devs have said this update was intended to do.

[Ausdoerrt]

[*]Most single-target special attacks should allow you to Strikethrough, hitting two to three targets.

• Smite Evil has been modified to allow Strikethrough.
• Exalted Smite has been modified to allow Strikethrough.
• Hamstring has been modified to allow Strikethrough.
• Sap has been modified to allow Strikethrough.
• Slicing Blow has been modified to allow Strikethrough.
• Sunder has been modified to allow Strikethrough.
• Improved Sunder has been modified to allow Strikethrough.
• Trip has been modified to allow Strikethrough.
• Improved Trip has been modified to allow Strikethrough.
• Stunning Blow has been modified to allow Strikethrough.[/COLOR]

[/LIST]

Question / request: can we change this to "All single-target special attacks"? Specifically, monk special abilities. Henshin could use a bit of a boost compared to other monk trees, and this could being able to hit 2 targets with a special ability instead of one could be a nice bonus, and probably not too OP given the high player skill floor.

[palladin9479]

Been a while since I've run a tempest but a friend I regularly run with does and said with the tight range he hardly sees a 4th target hit unless fighting something like rats. If they did give the thf line 40% would it put them ahead of tempest in terms of aoe dps? I'm not saying they should nerf tempest just that thf should be at the top when it comes to melee aoe damage as the devs have said this update was intended to do.

Yes giving THF +200% using the four regular feats would put them ahead of Tempest DoD. When all the math is run, +200% with four feats puts THF in a good position for AoE melee DPS. The other styles will beat it handily for boss killing and focus killing red names and champs, but THF would be good for trash, assuming a Sorc isn't around somewhere.

[DaviMOC]

Nice and cool to have a clear purpose on THF but it can remain relevant in a league dominated by Sorcs and spellcasters in general?

2hf character:"Ohhh its a group of mobs, now its my time to shine!"
*Here comes the fireball or any other random offensive spell.
2hf character: "Nevermind..."

Thats a scene that happens all the time already and nothing done there will change it because casters, and sorcs in specific already are too effective doing that even in low grinded characters.


Or tanks(or the TH fighter) gonna be able to tank time enough that the DPS from TH will start to pull its weight compared to cast time from casters?
Also, how cleave and cleave like abilities stands in all this? With low CD on cleave atacks is striketrought any relevant even in a scenario without any offensive caster?
Seems to me another failed effort to promote the combat style that ends up promoting other combat styles that indirect benefits from 2hf mechanics. It is boosting specs that are already in good places such as Druids and Tempest rangers while introducing mechanics that dont add but overlaps the current classic 2hf style from fighters, barbarians and paladins.

[darknoobslayer]

Yes giving THF +200% using the four regular feats would put them ahead of Tempest DoD. When all the math is run, +200% with four feats puts THF in a good position for AoE melee DPS. The other styles will beat it handily for boss killing and focus killing red names and champs, but THF would be good for trash, assuming a Sorc isn't around somewhere.

That's good to hear hopefully they implement the change as many of you have suggested. After this how would cleaves fare? Would you still use them or would you play more like a tempest and rely on strikethrough and special attacks?

[Stravix]

That's good to hear hopefully they implement the change as many of you have suggested. After this how would cleaves fare? Would you still use them or would you play more like a tempest and rely on strikethrough and special attacks?

Judging from SteelStar's comments on the live forums when strikethrough came up, they do have a few tweaks planned for cleaves. We just have no clue what they might be.

Edit to include SteelStar's post:

Strikethrough is a modification to the maximum number of targets your attacks hit; adding it to Cleaves would reduce their maximum number of targets from 25 to the Strikethrough cap, which was 3 on the last Lamannia. We aren't planning to nerf Cleaves (quite the opposite - stay tuned), so we won't be adding Strikethrough to any attacks that already hit multiple targets.

[Kielbasa]

Yes they removed the on-hit +damage part of DoD, it's now a straight DPS clicky like One Cut and such. That's an acceptable benefit for losing the fourth target. Now it's 10s duration / 15s recast and hit two extra targets on each attack. The target range is really tight though, like they need to be directly in your frontal cone of attack of about 120 degrees.

From actual gameplay on the test server I was not seeing this in quests. Still seemed to have the on hit or fail mechanic. All the changes for Update 45 are just going to push more people onto casters and we are going to see this cycle repeat itself until no playstyle is fun. I tested by hitting the ability in and out of combat whenever I used it out of combat I never saw myself hitting more than one target after engaging. The ability is fine as is on live; risk vs reward and a chance of failure.

[darknoobslayer]

Judging from SteelStar's comments on the live forums when strikethrough came up, they do have a few tweaks planned for cleaves. We just have no clue what they might be.

I missed the comments Steelstar made on cleave but I saw Lynnabel mention during preview one scaling cleaves with attack speed. The people I mentioned this to still think cleave would be mediocre, guess it would depend on build. Would this best benefit swf builds like bard? Would zombie builds cleave slower?

Thank you for adding Steel's post. I'm interested in seeing what they change.

[drunkbarbarian]

How about adding a strikethough chance on tower shields and possibly large shields? Maybe add that ability to improved shield mastery.

[Stravix]

How about adding a strikethough chance on tower shields and possibly large shields? Maybe add that ability to improved shield mastery.

This is the update to THF, S&B will get it's update, but trying to force the THF update to be the S&B update isn't helping

[Tilomere]

Can you add in a multiselector for strike through to rogue acrobat quick strike (morale doublestrike). Right now quick strike does nothing at cap because one sits at 100% doublestrike, but you have to take 3 ranks in it for 6 AP anyways because it is a prerequisite for other abilities. Rogues acrobats are basically just losing their glancing blows from live, since they already had 100% strike through from core 18, and don't have high stats to make use of the THF changes.

[Reesi]

This is the update to THF, S&B will get it's update, but trying to force the THF update to be the S&B update isn't helping

The problem here is this isn't a THF only change, it is taking glancing blows, a mechanic that has been in the game from day one - in a 14 year old game - replacing it with a different mechanic and then expecting it to not affect others. I don't think anyone is trying to push a different agenda, just trying to make certain they acknowledge this change affects others than just THF.

Let's be honest, perhaps 50% of the point of this change is to improve THF, but the other 50% or more is to reduce lag. They are asking you to stand still while you fight for this to work, and they are no longer trying to calculate an arc of hits on countless mobs while the THF player is jumping all over the place. You are moving you hit only your target. It is similar to range and standing still, with the range changes favoring standing still and not trying to get multiple targets with Improved Precise shot. It is a clear attempt at calculation reduction to keep us all from lagging out anytime something especially calculation heavy kicks off, which benefits everyone. Good efforts are being made here, I believe, but how THF plays will change to very high single target damage potential, better cleave damage, potential to hit an extra dude or maybe two, improved damage due to adjusted animations.

[Stravix]

The problem here is this isn't a THF only change, it is taking glancing blows, a mechanic that has been in the game from day one - in a 14 year old game - replacing it with a different mechanic and then expecting it to not affect others. I don't think anyone is trying to push a different agenda, just trying to make certain they acknowledge this change affects others than just THF.

Let's be honest, perhaps 50% of the point of this change is to improve THF, but the other 50% or more is to reduce lag. They are asking you to stand still while you fight for this to work, and they are no longer trying to calculate an arc of hits on countless mobs while the THF player is jumping all over the place. You are moving you hit only your target. It is similar to range and standing still, with the range changes favoring standing still and not trying to get multiple targets with Improved Precise shot. It is a clear attempt at calculation reduction to keep us all from lagging out anytime something especially calculation heavy kicks off, which benefits everyone. Good efforts are being made here, I believe, but how THF plays will change to very high single target damage potential, better cleave damage, potential to hit an extra dude or maybe two, improved damage due to adjusted animations.

You dont' have to stand still for strikethrough as long as you have THF, just as it was with glancing blows...

[Reesi]

You dont' have to stand still for strikethrough as long as you have THF, just as it was with glancing blows...

Sorry, I missed seeing the feats removed that restriction. Thanks