U45 Preview 2: Balance: Two Handed Fighting Changes

[dragons1ayer74]

You, at the very least, do not have GTHF as a lvl 7 char … my bad before posting this I was messing around with the Lamannia character to see if it got better but then realized it wouldn't be a good test as I would not be comparing the same. But please go try it for your self and see if when you are comparing the same thing that it doesn't feel underwhelming. I do have an old two-handed fighting epic level barbarian that I will dust off and try in live and Lamannia and report back with some attack cycle numbers.

[Ballrus]

OK, 3x stat mod to bswd/daxes plus a shield is too much.
But, if possible make these weapons benefit at least from the first feat (2x stat mod).

S&B are losing single target damage here.

Or there's an upgrade to shield fight coming?

[droid327]

How does Qstaff speed compare to "Great Weapon" THF speed, then? Or at least how is it intended to? If Qstaff was innately like 20% faster, that would create a lot of utility for the classes that are meant to use it - e.g. Rogue, Wizard - because they can stack proc-on-hit damage like Sneak and Spellsword more effectively, even though the base physical DPS is rather low. Likewise Henshins can build Ki faster for their special attacks.

(not including Bastard Sword or Dwarven Waraxe)

Well so much for hand-and-a-half builds lol...

We're back to the math of HaH using THF for 100% strikethrough, vs HaH with SWF for 30% attack speed and 1.5x stat-to-dmg, with base 20% Strikethrough (plus enhancements and PTHF in Epic). I'm pretty sure SWF will win in most practical situations; the faster attacks and higher base damage make up for fewer strikethroughs, and are useful in ALL situations, not just "exactly two enemies in range" situations. Sure, that means you cant use a Shield...but SM/ISM dont really make up for 30% speed/1.5x, and its two extra feats.

Maybe SM/ISM need a little buff to keep S&B HaH feasible without giving them the 3x stat of THF. Not like S&B is anywhere close to OP right now.

[palladin9479]

ST chance is still too low but the rest looks fine. I'd raise the THF feats to be 30~50% each such that with PTHF you would be hitting 3 targets a swing (200%) regularly. Remove the 200% cap, that's a silly restriction that's just nerfing future damage growth.

[GroundhogDay]

Apparently ddo's definition of AoE melee is 2 targets at cap, how is this a buff and not a nerf?

Can a dev explain why should i play this instead of going SWF or take 5 lvls of ranger and use DoD?

Also, when there will be no melees left in the game, will you design quests accordingly or will casters have to tank too?

[Deathmaster35]

Strikethrough
Glancing Blows game-wide have been replaced with a new mechanic: Strikethrough. While wielding a Two-Handed Weapon, or while wielding a Bastard Sword or Dwarven Axe in your main hand and a Shield, Orb, Rune Arm, or nothing in your offhand, your attacks can Strikethrough. When your attacks can Strikethrough, every attack has a chance ("Strikethrough Chance") to hit an additional target. By default, players have a 20% Strikethrough Chance (which can be improved through feats and enhancements), and cannot Strikethrough while moving. If your Strikethrough Chance is over 100%, you are guaranteed to hit a second target (if in range) on your attacks, with a chance to hit a third. By default, you can only Strikethrough while standing still.

We were being told that these changes are around making two handed fighting distinct and area damage focused(which is what it was before) yet these changes are making it less distinct as it is like a mimic of two weapon fighting where your offhand hits a second target instead of the same target again, and lowering the area damage.

Is the real purpose behind these changes just to nerf two handed fighting because people were able to do area damage with it and you want that limited to only be a caster thing? The changes end result seem to be about bring two handed fighting down in damage except when fighting two targets, lowering single target damage and removing area damage; and to remove bastard sword and dwarven waraxe as viable weapons to use. The changes also seem to imply druid bears were too good and needed a serious nerf...

[Thrudh]

Allowing Stunning Blow and Trip, etc. to hit multiple targets is very cool.

Can you also add Exposing Strike from the Ranger Deepwood enhancement line, since that originally worked with Dance of Death?

[Thrudh]

Is Dance of Death still going to use Strikethrough?

[Steelstar]

Is Dance of Death still going to use Strikethrough?

As stated in the notes, yes.

Allowing Stunning Blow and Trip, etc. to hit multiple targets is very cool.

Can you also add Exposing Strike from the Ranger Deepwood enhancement line, since that originally worked with Dance of Death?

Also as stated in the notes, most single-target special attacks should allow you to Strikethrough, hitting two to three targets. This includes Exposing Strike. (If it works with Dance of Death on Live already, expect it to work with Strikethrough).

[Cetus]

Has strikethrough not been added to the character sheet so that we can see our total percentage?

[Steelstar]

Has strikethrough not been added to the character sheet so that we can see our total percentage?

Strikethrough Chance should be in the Details tab (+) of the Character Sheet on Lamannia.

[AlmGhandi]

Strikethrough Chance should be in the Details tab (+) of the Character Sheet on Lamannia.

Is it? can anyone confirm?

[Pilgrim1]

Glancing Blows game-wide have been replaced with a new mechanic: Strikethrough.

Overall I like the mechanic of strike through. I am concerned about it being to strong. On live today 2hf already does more damage per swing then single weapon fighting. If people who are single weapon fighting could use a toggle that let them attack 30% slower but hit an extra target most would in a heartbeat. Now your making 2hf do more damage per hit then it does on live today. Yes glancing blows are gone, but they never did much damage in the first place. With 100% double strike, 50% glancing blow damage, and a strong crit profile glancing blows did about 1/8th of the DPS to side targets. Now with 100% double strike you do full damage to 2 targets. Basically you would need to be attacking 6+ targets for glancing blows to break even with strike through.

I am 100% fine with 2HF doing less single target damage.

By default, you can only Strikethrough while standing still.

As you listed above there are many ways for non 2hf toons to get small amounts of strikethrough. If you lift the restriction on only strikethrough with a 2h weapon, and only strikethrough while moving with a feet then you open build options for 2hf and single weapon fighting toons to get small amounts of strikethrough chance. I think it would add more build diversity.

[*]Class Specific Feats

• Druid's Wild Shape: Bear now allows you to Strikethrough as long as you are not in the Defensive Fighting stance. (This replaces its previous ability to use Glancing Blows). You can Strikethrough while moving in Bear Form.
• Druid's Wild Shape: Dire Bear now allows you to Strikethrough as long as you are not in the Defensive Fighting stance. It also gains +20% Strikethrough Chance. (This replaces its previous ability to use Glancing Blows). You can Strikethrough while moving in Dire Bear Form.
• The Natural Fighting Feat now grants +15% Strikethrough Chance per copy of the Feat (max 3) in addition to its other effects. This replaces its previous Glancing Blow bonus.

In bear form the improved defensive stances require a shield and bear form to use. The fact that a shield is required already precludes you from using a 2-hand weapon. If you allow bears to strikethrough while in defensive fighting stance you will let them have the benefits of small defensive bonuses and threat. Both fighters and pallies can use their superior defensive fighting stances with a 2-handed weapon and get the full benefit of those stances. This seams to penalize bears unfairly.

In addition bears using a 2h weapon will not get the benifit of 3x stat mod, tho that may be a good thing as bears get slight attack speed bonuses.

Overall im concerned that 2hf bears will have to forgo the ALL the defensive stances in their tree and be forced to take epic defensive fighting in order to survive in melee range, thus making spell casting a real pain to use.

[*]Most single-target special attacks should allow you to Strikethrough, hitting two to three targets.

• Smite Evil has been modified to allow Strikethrough.
• Exalted Smite has been modified to allow Strikethrough.
• Hamstring has been modified to allow Strikethrough.
• Sap has been modified to allow Strikethrough.
• Slicing Blow has been modified to allow Strikethrough.
• Sunder has been modified to allow Strikethrough.
• Improved Sunder has been modified to allow Strikethrough.
• Trip has been modified to allow Strikethrough.
• Improved Trip has been modified to allow Strikethrough.
• Stunning Blow has been modified to allow Strikethrough.[/COLOR]

THIS IS GREAT!

Like seriously, this is what 2hf should have been about from the very start. Adding status effects to AoE hits is just amazing. Now please please please expand that list to include class abilities. I would love to play a q.staff monk with quivering palm and void strike. I would love to be able to use all those cool finishing moves. I would love to be able to be a rogue assassin with a giant ass sword assassinating 2 targets. I would love to be a bard that uses frozen furry to freeze 2 targets. The list goes on and on and on. Then there are thoes epic destiny moves. Please please please make this list exhaustive, you will inspire so many interesting and fun melee options.

[palladin9479]

Guys, I think this needs mentioning as its' the single biggest buff to Two Handed Fighting.

Animations
The animation sets for non-Quarterstaff two handed styles have been reworked to address the following issues:
The last animation didn’t blend into the first correctly. It now does.
For balance & cosmetic reasons all attack animations for these styles should now execute in the same amount of time. Previously animations at the end of the attack chain took longer than those at the start. This encouraged players to animation break to avoid them, which looks repetitive and choppy.
Standing attack speed has been slightly buffed, mobile speed should be exactly the same.

That alone just fixed a huge set of issues THF had, especially that last one. See before monsters love to run around and jump out of AoE range, causing melee's to chase after them and to nearly constantly be in a "running" animation. With standing animation being fixed and running animation not being dog slow, non-Barb THF might actually be a thing now.

Also StrikeThrough chance still way too low.

[Lynnabel]

In bear form the improved defensive stances require a shield and bear form to use. The fact that a shield is required already precludes you from using a 2-hand weapon. If you allow bears to strikethrough while in defensive fighting stance you will let them have the benefits of small defensive bonuses and threat. Both fighters and pallies can use their superior defensive fighting stances with a 2-handed weapon and get the full benefit of those stances. This seams to penalize bears unfairly.

This restriction is not with any defensive stance, only the defensive stance named Defensive Fighting. This restriction is carried forward from pre-Strikethrough, where this stance prevented Bear Glancing Blows.

[AlmGhandi]

Make ESOS great again

[Ballrus]

So, any word on increase in single target damage with bswds/daxes?
A simple yes/no works for me. (No drama)

Thanks.

(Im near 30 and need decide next build.).

[PsychoBlonde]

"Druid's Wild Shape: Bear now allows you to Strikethrough as long as you are not in the Defensive Fighting stance. (This replaces its previous ability to use Glancing Blows). You can Strikethrough while moving in Bear Form."

Okay, this is a problem, because this is a serious nerf to tank bear stuff. You lose glancing blows (which at least gave you SOME chance to hold threat on multiple enemies) and can ONLY strikethrough when NOT in stance? That's not fair. Bear is already dealing with some severe issues when trying to tank and already dealing with mediocre-at-best DPS that doesn't scale well into epic levels. It doesn't need a nerf.

[PsychoBlonde]

This restriction is not with any defensive stance, only the defensive stance named Defensive Fighting. This restriction is carried forward from pre-Strikethrough, where this stance prevented Bear Glancing Blows.

OH, okay, nvm just noticed this. Whew.

[Kaboom2112]

Does Dance of Death work while moving?