U45 Preview 1: Balance: Ranged Combat Changes

[palladin9479]

Read the first post again, specifically the line about changes to the rapid reload feat.

Doesn't say by how much, and it still won't be enough because max out Dual Xbow is the fastest shooting.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ddo/comment...ight_vs_heavy/

Type Bolts Seconds Bolts/Second
Single Light xbow 300 267 1.1235
Dual Light xbows 300 150 2
Single Heavy xbows 300 268 1.1194
Dual Heavy xbows 300 164 1.82
Light Repeater 300 129 2.3255
Heavy Repeater 300 130 2.307

This was with a level 4 character without all the goodies that enhance that to stupid levels.

Dual Shooter was SSG's attempt to make Light / Heavy XBows competitive against Great/Repeating builds and it was far too big of an increase. The second shot should only proc 50% of the time, not a full 100% with all the double shot silliness. There is a reason half the games population is running inquisitives as their DPS build, instead of mechanic or archery. You can't hand waive away all those drones running around with their arms permanently stuck in front of themselves like some sort of robot shooting out long streams of bolts nonstop.

[HippieBallz]

To start my favorite toon i had for years was a 1rogue 19ranger AA build long before we had epic lvls and ED. I played it into the first expansion of evening star and loved it still. That was untill the huge nerf we had by Turbine to the manyshot machanic and the first rouge tree rework. I still miss the days i could pull aggro from the best tanks and casters on the server with and manyshot to the face of the raid boss. xbows and repeaters were nice then and well balanced and while they could out damage to a point the burst damage and ability to proc slayer arrow on all 4 arrows from a many shot more then made up for the difference in damage per shot that was there. you have the ability to make ranged stances work for one weapon and not another why not start there. IPS and AF can not be taken as feats if say you have the 2xbow stance in inquis boom now they must single target damage have the reload time they have on xbows be doubled in stance with a hit to doubleshot % as they do fire way way to fast and even out kill my 2arti 18 rogue that my old AA now is and that was a darn cleric doing that!!!!! while i understand the tree was meant to be a ranged focused one the way it interacts with other classes and trees was not well thought out and played to the solo play mentality that has been being pushed since before the buy out by SSG. let rangers have the old IPS no pen and the new AF without losing the stacks as you are going to hit something else unless its a boss with no trash around to pester you. Bring back the old manyshot giving extra ARROW at set toon lvls with a % chance for a extra arrow to spawn based off you double shot % let the active skills like slayer proc on all the arrows of the fire animation as they used to because it used to state you fired multiple arrows from your bow at once!!! hence the skill should proc on all arrows. This would not only bring the dps back to bows but make the balance or ranged weapons as a whole more level among all trees. SSG i have no issues with you guys focusing on changes between the HC seasons but please take a page from grinding gear games and make sure that the changes for seasons is something that makes the core game as a whole better too. Bow users and Rangers need a pass more then anything else well maybe other then pally's as a whole give us reason to do pure builds again and make the stand-alone trees more like what they are meant to be build fillers/flush outs just like any subclass from D&D. while i understand the rush for new trees, content, style reworks please do remember that the game is meant to have classes for a reason they play a role and not just DPS healer or tank. each has a utility that it brings to the table. So much of what made grouping needed has been lost and has caused many to leave the game its sad to see the most underperforming weapon type get hit with such a huge nerf to the little damage they put out as is. you could have made the nerf to inqis without it effecting anything else with just the reload time and drop in DS% while the stance is toggled and made it that some feats cant be taken if you have points in the stance you change the feats to not apply durning the stance much like how nero forms and WL forms dont work at the same time just a idea and someone may have said all this already but i was triggered by page 3 of this thread

[TDarkchylde]

I noticed Vile chemist gets a similar ability to Ninja Spy 2 core that works with throwing weapon expertise similar to how Ninja spy 2 works with Shuriken expertise. I was wondering if there is any way we can add something similar to Swashbuckler or Vistani Knife Fighter so they too can be awesome throwing dagger dudes too? They both have enhancements to support the throwing daggers builds but they can never compete to someone like a ninja spy monk with shurikens or a vile chemist alchemist with a dart/throwing dagger, cos they get like a chance to throw an extra projectile twice per point of dex/int. It would be swell to see some love on the Swashbuckler thrower side.

This is something I'm kind of curious about as well. Also, has the testing y'all've gone off of to determine how much to nerf IPS taken into account Alchies with this new tree and style?

[pjstechie]

Improved Precise Shot now reduces Ranged Damage by 20% while active.

Would there perhaps be the possibility of adding some new abilities that reduce this? I’m thinking enhancement options with specific weapons (like bows in deep wood stalker, maybe competing with the archer focus choice) or maybe something shuriken related in ninja spy and so on but not necessarily for each weapon type) and maybe an epic feat that knocks it down by 5%. Shiradi champion could maybe get some as well?

It could lead to some interesting build choices and also seems like an easy opportunity to bring bows up a bit relative to other ranged styles.

Longer example of possibility: deepwood stalker cores 2, 4, and 6 now also reduce IPS penalty by 2/2/4% while using bows. The archer focus related enhancement in tier 5 also grants another 2%.

Not sure how code heavy it is, but could also suppress some (all?) of these during manyshot/fullisade boosts and the like.

[IlmerSilverhilt]

I wont comment so much on the bow changes untill I see the buff they get, but please dont tie bow improvements to DWS, thanks!

[Komradkillingmachine]

Read the first post again, specifically the line about changes to the rapid reload feat.

Yup. Rapid Reload change for Dxbows and "new & improved" NHB animation are the REAL nerfs to Inquisitive.
The proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

R.I.P Inquisitive.

[Requiro]

“Balance Ranged Combat changes” you say? Let’s see…

IPS nerf - Unnecessary and incomprehensible nerf to all ranged toon. Ranged combat style is weak in this game. I don’t count Inquisitor, because everyone know that it OP, and require nerf. So… /NOT SIGNED

Archer’s Focus – Proposed changes will removed optional ranged combat style: Stand and Deliver. So no thank you /NOT SIGNED

Nerfs to Inquisitive (Rapid Reload, NHB, Other Dual Crossbow changes) – Good start so /SIGNED. But it’s not enough. Too much power in to early levels (CORE 12, Tier 5). Spread them around and bump the cost in AP (especially Tier 5) and should be fine.

Simple Thrown Weapon Expertise and Multitude of Missiles – Great improvement to weapons that are used by no one. Maybe someone will start…. So / SINGED

DWS changes – Redundant and meaningless improvement that change nothing. Sure I could signed here, but like I said – it's meaningless. Devs should not waste their time on this. So... /NOT SIGNED

BOW improvements – Wait? No changes at all? Strange – this is a weakest from all ranged combat style and no buffs at all? In ranged balance thread? So… /NOT SIGNED overall.

Class / Enhancements / Feats – no additional idea? And you call this thread “Balance Ranged Combat changes”? So… /NOT SIGNED at all

Overall very weak suggestion…. WAIT! This is not Suggestion & Ideas sub-forum? These changes are going live? Seriously??? Devs developed this and (OMG!) waste their time on this? Oh my goodness…

Please someone tell me it’s a joke!

[SirValentine]

WAIT! This is not Suggestion & Ideas sub-forum? These changes are going live? Seriously???

They might tweak a few things, but history has shown that once it shows up on Lama, the overall design is already set. This is a preview of what will go live in U45.

[Requiro]

They might tweak a few things, but history has shown that once it shows up on Lama, the overall design is already set. This is a preview of what will go live in U45.

Unbelievable! They are going to nerf all Ranged Combat (IPS), made all melee furious on ranged toon again (Archers Focus) because of one OP Universal Tree! This is hilarious!

Devs – do you know, what will happen with ranged combat style after these changes? Inquisitor will be sill superior to ANY other ranged combat style and maybe (just maybe) ok’ish with melee and casters. But at the same time, all other ranged combat style will be far far behind other styles. This is your goal?

BTW: I can’t remember any demand of nerfing Ranged Combat Style before Inquisitor! Seriously!

Devs! Consider pushing changes to IPS and Archers Focus to some later Update if other proposed changes will not bring balance to game. I will guarantee, that if you just nerf Inquisitor, everyone will be happy, and ranged combat style will return to normal, balanced terms.

BUT… If you must, then just change IPS, that can't be used with No Holds Barred (maybe even Endless Fusillade). Something like: "When you use NHO (or EF) then IPS will toggle off". Combination of IPS + NHO/IF is OP not IPS itself!

[Redtalktree]

To start my favorite toon i had for years was a 1rogue 19ranger AA build long before we had epic lvls and ED. I played it into the first expansion of evening star and loved it still. That was untill the huge nerf we had by Turbine to the manyshot machanic and the first rouge tree rework. I still miss the days i could pull aggro from the best tanks and casters on the server with and manyshot to the face of the raid boss. xbows and repeaters were nice then and well balanced and while they could out damage to a point the burst damage and ability to proc slayer arrow on all 4 arrows from a many shot more then made up for the difference in damage per shot that was there. you have the ability to make ranged stances work for one weapon and not another why not start there. IPS and AF can not be taken as feats if say you have the 2xbow stance in inquis boom now they must single target damage have the reload time they have on xbows be doubled in stance with a hit to doubleshot % as they do fire way way to fast and even out kill my 2arti 18 rogue that my old AA now is and that was a darn cleric doing that!!!!! while i understand the tree was meant to be a ranged focused one the way it interacts with other classes and trees was not well thought out and played to the solo play mentality that has been being pushed since before the buy out by SSG. let rangers have the old IPS no pen and the new AF without losing the stacks as you are going to hit something else unless its a boss with no trash around to pester you. Bring back the old manyshot giving extra ARROW at set toon lvls with a % chance for a extra arrow to spawn based off you double shot % let the active skills like slayer proc on all the arrows of the fire animation as they used to because it used to state you fired multiple arrows from your bow at once!!! hence the skill should proc on all arrows. This would not only bring the dps back to bows but make the balance or ranged weapons as a whole more level among all trees. SSG i have no issues with you guys focusing on changes between the HC seasons but please take a page from grinding gear games and make sure that the changes for seasons is something that makes the core game as a whole better too. Bow users and Rangers need a pass more then anything else well maybe other then pally's as a whole give us reason to do pure builds again and make the stand-alone trees more like what they are meant to be build fillers/flush outs just like any subclass from D&D. while i understand the rush for new trees, content, style reworks please do remember that the game is meant to have classes for a reason they play a role and not just DPS healer or tank. each has a utility that it brings to the table. So much of what made grouping needed has been lost and has caused many to leave the game its sad to see the most underperforming weapon type get hit with such a huge nerf to the little damage they put out as is. you could have made the nerf to inqis without it effecting anything else with just the reload time and drop in DS% while the stance is toggled and made it that some feats cant be taken if you have points in the stance you change the feats to not apply durning the stance much like how nero forms and WL forms dont work at the same time just a idea and someone may have said all this already but i was triggered by page 3 of this thread

Common mate try paragraph, spacing and full stops plz it help my eyes to read and my brain to understand your POV

[barecm]

I am not sure if it has been posted yet, but during the Lamannia Q&A it was stated by the devs that longbow changes are coming NEXT WEEK. So, despite there being some talk of Later this year, and "Soon", it looks like they either bumped it up to the current sprint or maybe they were playing cards close to the vest. Either way, it is good news and the right path to take for SSG.

I am not sure if that means we will preview the changes next week, or what that really means, but at least we have some sort of time line.

[Lynnabel]

They might tweak a few things, but history has shown that once it shows up on Lama, the overall design is already set. This is a preview of what will go live in U45.

This is false. Saying stuff like this makes it really hard to get good feedback. We've already announced significant changes to many of the things written up for preview (and seriously, these are PREVIEW notes) such as Dance of Death, Archer's Focus, and even the entire bow combat style.

[Cantor]

Ok, either I've never had the reload animation play for me ever until now, or something is very very wrong. Right now (on Lam-Land) the pre-animation for No Holds Barred is PAINFULLY SLOW! Like suddenly I'm in slow motion, fatigued, slowed, and suffering from troglodyte stink all at the same time. It takes ages to go from clicking/activating NHB to being able to do anything again.

I'd rather have it's duration reduced by the time it takes the animation to play or have a longer cooldown, than have to suffer through that slow motion animation every activation.

NHB had no animation EF did, another part of why it was so OP. It is insanely painful to wait through. I completely agree that I'd rather have it reduced in duration than wait through that animation. It sucks, it's not fun.

[Cantor]

We want to shake up builds and strategies, and it makes sense to align these game-wide changes with the release of new seasons of the Hardcore League.

I think people are taking this as "we are balancing around HC" when what they really mean is "we want to get this in before so we don't completely change the build strata in the middle of HC."

[Ashlayna]

I think people are taking this as "we are balancing around HC" when what they really mean is "we want to get this in before so we don't completely change the build strata in the middle of HC."

So in the other posts, where it talks about making other seasons feel different is just a happy coincidence? I'd love to give them the benefit of the doubt, I really would. But these statements are not made in a vacuum. They are made along with sweeping nerfs to playstyles that didn't need to be nerfed so that they could nuke one enhancement tree from orbit, instead of making precision cuts. IPS is, and has been a staple in ranged builds since there were ranged builds. All of a sudden, it's a major problem, and it's not because of HCL? I've been fed stuff like this before, and I wasn't that gullible even way back then. The rationalization of "easy to get AoE" falls on deaf ears, because it's not easy to get, unless, of course, you're playing 11 levels of ranger for every ranged build. I don't, I have played FvS, Druid, and Wizard AAs, all with no ranger in the build. My ranger splash build is X14/Ranger 6, so I can get the 3rd core in DWS. So those builds would get some of the feats required for free, but the rest of the requirements are on me to get. It's not like Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and IPS are free feats for every class, at this time, I'm only aware of that being the case on rangers, and then it's not until level 11 that you get them all, which is likely due to the +11 BAB and 19 dex everyone else is required to have. So no, it's not "easy to get AoE", it requires a significant investment, even if the investments are logical, if you're planning to play ranged effectively. I guess I can put effectively in quotes now?

"But we're planning to upgrade bows" is all good and all, and only about a decade overdue, but what about Arti, or Mech, or thrower builds? What about builds that take Precise Shot for back up ranged, so that they hit the intended target, even if another mob gets between them and their target? "Sorry, we had to nerf you because (insert excuse here), but we promise, no matter what we've said on the forums, it's not because of HCL"? I'm still not that gullible.

[hit_fido]

NHB had no animation EF did, another part of why it was so OP. It is insanely painful to wait through. I completely agree that I'd rather have it reduced in duration than wait through that animation. It sucks, it's not fun.

I could go either way. The 'charge up' is annoying and made it so you couldn't readily use EF as an 'oh ****' response to, say, a couple reapers spawning nearby. On the other hand, if you knew the quest you're in you could charge up before e.g. turning a corner or spawning an encounter and essentially negate the delay by playing smartly, which allows for player skill/experience to factor in and provide a benefit.

As advertised the claim is NHB has the same charge up as EF now, but that the charge up delay is also reduced - anyone confirmed that?

[ahpook]

They’re shooting at significantly less than twice the rate of a single crossbow.

The nerf you’re asking for is effectively already happening with longer reload animations, less double shot, and other rate of fire limiting changes on Inquisitives. The nerfs are multiplied with each other for a much bigger total effect than each individual nerf seems to present.

Which seems like a really awkward way to tackle the problem. Dropping off hand shoot rate seems so much simpler and more predictable instead of all these 10% to 20% off of a handful of things. But SSG has a history of avoiding the direct change and dancing around the edges in a heavy handed way.

[Cordovan]

I think people are taking this as "we are balancing around HC" when what they really mean is "we want to get this in before so we don't completely change the build strata in the middle of HC."

Correct. This is on us for not wording it accurately enough at the start, but hopefully we were able to clarify this to the community yesterday. These balance adjustments are necessary (although clearly as seen in the preview we are open to your feedback and are changing quite a few things prior to live), and would take place with or without a Hardcore League. However, since there is a lot going on in U45, including a new class, it made sense to get this out prior to the start of the next season.

[ahpook]

NHB had no animation EF did, another part of why it was so OP. It is insanely painful to wait through. I completely agree that I'd rather have it reduced in duration than wait through that animation. It sucks, it's not fun.

Yeah, adding the animation was an awful fix. Instead drop the duration or increase the cool down. Or both.

[niknight]

So, I took my Inq Favored Soul from Hardcore (died at level 15, not touched since then) and ran it through some level 15 quests on both the live servers and Lammania. Being a pure FvS, it didn't have enough BAB to take IPS, so my tests were done without it. The loss of DPS for this toon wasn't just noticeable, it was excessive. Despite having all of my gear/feats/enhancements dedicated to ranged combat, clearing rooms was painfully slow. It was much slower than just trying to nuke without any gearing changes.

What I'm worried about is how the sum total of these changes seem to effectively kill the viability of any non fighter/rogue/arti based inquisitive that isn't decked out in stat tomes, filled destinies and past lives.