U45 Preview 1: Balance: Ranged Combat Changes

[0ldschool]

Improved Precise Shot is not the problem. No Holds Barred and Endless Fusillade being action boosts. That is the problem.
I haven't seen anyone complaining about Manyshot coupled with Improved Precise Shot. With an uptime of 20 seconds out of every 2 minutes, I wouldn't expect to either.

Having 12 or 15 (you can get more) action boosts between shrines and the uptime of those action boosts being 18 seconds out of every 30...coupled with Improved Precise Shot?
Nobody but Casters can come close to competing with that kind of On-Demand A.O.E. burst. It's ridiculous.

You just made a new manyshot feat for simple throwing weapons. Uptime? 20 seconds out of every 2 minutes.
Why not turn Endless Fusillade and No Holds Barred into the same feat with ALL crossbows? Hell, you could turn into one Feat then.

I suspect that you are correct. I wonder where the -20% value came from. My guess is that the action boosts you referred to are a big part of the perceived 'IPS is OP' issue. If so, I like your solution, or just nerf some of the synergy between IPS and the boosts. How about -20% damage for IPS only when EF/NHB is active?

Archer's Focus resetting after each mob is a puzzling choice too, making it effectively a red-named only stance. Why? Having stacks remain when switching targets would not do anything to diminish your stated goal of moving ranged to single-target, as we would still only be engaging a single target at a time. Perhaps a concern of stacking it with Blitz? Then nerf that synergy too. More precise solutions are desperately needed here vs. just crushing all ranged DPS with a big nerf bat.

[PsychoBlonde]

The idea that IPS has always been OP is ridiculous.

Exactly. Nothing is OP outside of the context where it occurs. You can't look at something in a vacuum and say "oh, that's overpowered". It depends on how it interacts with everything else in the build.

IPS is fine as it stands when ranged universally has a low attack speed compared to other combat methods. It helps bring up some of the gap. The *problem* is that the different ranged methods all have WILDLY different attack speeds and they ALL have further BURST effects, so some of them have no need to "catch up" with melee attack speed, and some of them are lagging way, way, way behind.

Bring them all up to the same basic attack speed, get rid of the "ranged relies on bursts" mechanic, and THEN you can actually evaluate whether hitting multiple targets at once is a problem or not. Obviously it's not a catastrophe in general terms because they just seriously boosted this ability for two-handed weapons, which makes sense because two-handed fighting doesn't otherwise get the kind of attack speed boost that two-weapon or single-weapon fighting does. So adding a second attack to two-handed brings those three styles fairly close to attack speed parity while still preserving the stylistic difference between them. Two-handed is good when dealing with multiple targets, two-weapon and single-weapon are still superior when you've got only one target. Excellent job there, two thumbs up. If there are still problems, all three of the main melee styles can be tweaked slightly to bring them up more-or-less to the same universe.

Everyone who tried to tweak stuff downstream of the central issue--the low basic ranged attack speed--has failed. EVERY SINGLE TRY at this has created new and worse problems, because they don't address the fundamental issue that makes ranged DPS in this game such a chaotic mess.

[Deathmaster35]

Remove the VIP subscription or fix this mess.

Have you ever considered the fact that the world doesnt revolve around you? Please take the time to make constructive feedback as right now all of your posts make you sound like a spoiled entitled child that is throwing a tantrum because you cant get your way. I dont think you have left a single bit of constructive feedback in this entire thread, you are just crying and making gross exaggerations, which is not helping the situation at all.

These changes are bad and we need constructive feedback, not hyperbole

[SirValentine]

I don't have any secret Discord channel of any sort. I participate in the public player-run Discord channels (open to anybody) and a Player's Council channel (open to Player's Council members, and used for smaller feedback that doesn't warrant an entire thread, but essentially the same purpose as the Player's Council Forum threads - Gathering early feedback from a smaller group under NDA).

So the public channel is player-run, OK.

What about this "Player's Council channel"? Is it SSG-run? I ask because, a few years back, there was a channel claiming to be for the Player's Council, but actually privately run by one individual for them and their buddies; not all the Player's Council were welcome to participate there. If it's SSG-run, fine, but if it's still some exclusionary private sub-group of the PC, I don't think it's appropriate for SSG to use it for anything.

[Deathmaster35]

+1. As a ranged players with zero past lives, 4 reaper points, who is not Inquis, not particularly good yet, and completely inept at swapping stances fast, thank you for illustrating this point so well.

I don't see that many ranged toons (non-inquis) out there really. I rarely see other Mechanics at all, playing at cap on Cannith. I honestly can't remember the last time I saw one. So the whole 'IPS is OP' thing is really coming out of left field for me. When I pug (which is many times Reaper, not by my choice), it's me plinking away while the melees and caster do the vast majority of the damage. I'm not saying that my experience is typical, but it's my only frame of reference, and in this world, a 20% drop in damage output just makes me that much less useful to anyone. It also reduces my ability to solo LE, perhaps pushing me right out of it entirely for any high mob count quests which have become so common.

I'm trying to speak for the little guy, the new player without a zillion reaper points and past lives and hyper-optimized builds who's just trying to enjoy the game and contribute something to parties when they'll have me.

The reason you dont see pure mechanics is because they are flat out inferior to the inquisitive tree. You are much more powerful putting 41 into inquisitive and then getting tier 4 mechanic than just doing mechanic alone. Pure mechanic was also inferior to having 4 levels of artificer for a rune arm plus Endless Fusillade because fusillade was overpowered. The great crossbow talk in this thread isnt about a pure rogue using one, it is about players with Endless Fusillade using one. For some reason they have picked to nerf the entire ranged concept instead of just addressing the overpowered abilities

past lives mostly add durability, not damage. You are looking at extra stat points, which are fairly minor increases to damage as a few points in a stat dont amount to much in the long run, the biggest increases would be the 9% double strike and double shot. reaper points only add to your ability to function in reaper mode. Gear is the biggest factor in performing well, you have to have good gear that is appropriate for your role

[Lynnabel]

So the public channel is player-run, OK.

What about this "Player's Council channel"? Is it SSG-run? I ask because, a few years back, there was a channel claiming to be for the Player's Council, but actually privately run by one individual for them and their buddies; not all the Player's Council were welcome to participate there. If it's SSG-run, fine, but if it's still some exclusionary private sub-group of the PC, I don't think it's appropriate for SSG to use it for anything.

Everyone on the PC is welcome in the PC Discord. Some players are forums only so we keep information in both places, and we keep a close eye on both places for feedback.

[Deathmaster35]

A lot of people have being saying something such as this. I think IPS has always been a problem but the low effectiveness of ranged builds has hidden it. Inquisitor has made it far more obvious. But if you look back at any viable ranged build (monkcher, paralyzing AA) IPS was always one of the most significant factors in its success. It is essentially a feat that more than doubles the DPS (or the effectiveness of paralyzing arrows). Perhaps it should have been a single shot with a cool down (much like Cleave) rather than a stance. I don't have a problem with toning down IPS but the 20% blanket reduction doesn't seem all that great as it makes one have to mess with the stances more than desirable especially if the cool downs and activation times haven't been removed.

It doesntmore than double the DPS of someone with it. It more than doubles it in specific encounters where you are able to make use of it well, such as fights there things run at you in a line or stand in a line. Most fights things are kind of all over the place and due to the poor hit detection on line attacks you are lucky to hit more than one target. There is also the height issue where characters with multiple past lives will shoot over many enemies making it almost impossible to hit more than one even when they are in a line. I have many issues where something is in my face, I have a lock on something right behind it and am shooting it, yet the target in my face takes no damage at all from IPS. Also many issues where I shoot into a crowd of 5-6 targets and somehow am only hitting one.. if it had good hit detection to work reliably I could understand the desire to lower the damage, but I spent hours grouped today trying to make use of it and many fights I was never able to hit more than one target(epic elite) as even when I lived the shot up only the main target took damage, the things in the way or behind it did not(and yes, I checked multiple times to make sure I had IPS on)

[PsychoBlonde]

past lives mostly add durability, not damage. You are looking at extra stat points, which are fairly minor increases to damage as a few points in a stat dont amount to much in the long run, the biggest increases would be the 9% double strike and double shot. reaper points only add to your ability to function in reaper mode.

Well, the bonus HP/SP you can get from cores are nice in sub-reaper, but they did a pretty good job of tightening down this issue with limiting your bonus reaper HP by level. But, again, that's durability.

Past lives also add some staying power for casters by increasing your SP and DC's a bit, but this has been getting less and less important with every update since I started playing. SP pots used to be a huge thing and now pretty much no one uses them no matter how many past lives they have. Heck, people mostly don't even stop to SHRINE any more, and that's free sp!

I play with people who have no past lives on their characters all the time and they REGULARLY out-kill me in quests. Like so much that it's not even funny. (There was a hilarious issue not long ago when a super-low-hp rogue joined my group for Acid Wit and proceeded to wreck the place--he'd let me get aggro and just assassinate EVERYTHING. He didn't even have wings, I expect he came over from Hardcore. But his player knew how to PLAY. He died a time or two due to bad luck, but I think his kill to death ratio STILL beat me.) Usually their only issue is that they need to be a little careful of their HP/saves.

[0ldschool]

The reason you dont see pure mechanics is because they are flat out inferior to the inquisitive tree. You are much more powerful putting 41 into inquisitive and then getting tier 4 mechanic than just doing mechanic alone. Pure mechanic was also inferior to having 4 levels of artificer for a rune arm plus Endless Fusillade because fusillade was overpowered. The great crossbow talk in this thread isnt about a pure rogue using one, it is about players with Endless Fusillade using one. For some reason they have picked to nerf the entire ranged concept instead of just addressing the overpowered abilities

past lives mostly add durability, not damage. You are looking at extra stat points, which are fairly minor increases to damage as a few points in a stat dont amount to much in the long run, the biggest increases would be the 9% double strike and double shot. reaper points only add to your ability to function in reaper mode. Gear is the biggest factor in performing well, you have to have good gear that is appropriate for your role

Thanks. I think this further shows that the problem is not IPS, but IPS interacting with other boosts and the inquis tree. Nerfing IPS will nerf my pure rogue mechanic that does not use EF just the same as those that do. Why is that necessary? He needs all the help he can get. We don't all choose to build the meta.

If (IPS=true AND Endless Fusillade=true) then damage:=damage*0.8, else damage:=damage.

I'm not intending to pick on EF here, just trying to make a point. Let me reiterate that I don't believe an IPS nerf is actually needed, and that if one must come for certain boost/tree synergies, a 20% damage reduction is extremely heavy handed.

[Tilomere]

If you don't see the reason, it isn't because there isn't one. Ask, and listen when we explain things.

Why does deflect arrows work with bows/crossbows equipped? 3.5 PnP is clear it is an empty handed ability, and traditionally in homebrew/past D&D editions missile deflection/cover is tied to unarmed, melee weapons, and shields.

[Moeballah]

I must Say, I am not thrilled with the changed to Precise Shot, and Improved Precise Shot.

I play mostly Pure Artificers, and have never felt overpowered. now they're planning to neuter the class with these changes.

I hope if they insist on changing these feats, they at least remove the prerequisite of Precise Shot to get to Improved Precise Shot. I already grudgingly have to take Point Blank Shot. At this point Precise Shot is almost a complete waste of a feat slot.

[barecm]

Have you ever considered the fact that the world doesnt revolve around you? Please take the time to make constructive feedback as right now all of your posts make you sound like a spoiled entitled child that is throwing a tantrum because you cant get your way. I dont think you have left a single bit of constructive feedback in this entire thread, you are just crying and making gross exaggerations, which is not helping the situation at all.

These changes are bad and we need constructive feedback, not hyperbole

Ok, I do agree with you to a point, but I have made SOME constructive points. My last 2 before this one. I will try to behave better Steel... Er, I mean deathmaster35; just a guess.

My only REAL point, amongst my hyperbole, is if we know longbows are in a bad place, can we maybe wait on the IPS change until the longbow changes are ready?

[palladin9479]

So is Inquisitive still shooting twice every attack animation? That alone is what makes them so **** OP. The current adjustments, even with the rest of the update is taken into consideration, still has Inquisitive at the top of the DPS hierarchy. IPS, NHB, Law damage, all that stuff is icing on the broken power cake that is Dual Shooter. Dual Shooter is what needs nerfed to stop having half the server running Inquisitive builds, instead of a 100% off hand attack it needs 50% or just removed entirely. Being able to do more damage then melee's at a safe range is just broken.

[SirValentine]

Why do things not just scale at 100%?

I think it all started when they wanted to nerf Heal (and Mass Heal).

EDIT: Found it. From July 11, 2012:

The only two healing spells which have a non-standard interaction with Spell Power are Heal and Mass Heal. They each receive 50% of your spell power total.

They put that in with Update 14 (Menace of the Underdark) but didn't mention it or admit it was a deliberate nerf until after players found it.

[HungarianRhapsody]

So is Inquisitive still shooting twice every attack animation? That alone is what makes them so **** OP. The current adjustments, even with the rest of the update is taken into consideration, still has Inquisitive at the top of the DPS hierarchy. IPS, NHB, Law damage, all that stuff is icing on the broken power cake that is Dual Shooter. Dual Shooter is what needs nerfed to stop having half the server running Inquisitive builds, instead of a 100% off hand attack it needs 50% or just removed entirely. Being able to do more damage then melee's at a safe range is just broken.

They’re shooting at significantly less than twice the rate of a single crossbow.

The nerf you’re asking for is effectively already happening with longer reload animations, less double shot, and other rate of fire limiting changes on Inquisitives. The nerfs are multiplied with each other for a much bigger total effect than each individual nerf seems to present.

[cave_diver]

I approve of these changes...now melee and ranged can run in groups again

[Zafaron]

Bow combat is quite a bit behind crossbow combat so it does need help, the two are worlds apart.

How about changing improved precise shot to reduce movement speed when it is active instead of reduced ranged damage (possibly gated by shot on the run?)? Or perhaps reduce movement speed while active if you are wielding a crossbow? This would make it situational, nothing people dislike more than moving slowly.

Archer's focus shouldn't reset stacks when you switch targets, often in heroics things die in 2-3 shots. Also monsters charge the player and they jump in front of each other to get shot first. Perhaps reset stacks after being out of combat for some amount of seconds instead?

[Souless]

Yeah, I tested it. It was literally impossible for me to ever get more than one stack because the target would be DEAD before I got a second one.

Like I said, this is dumb, and it's OBVIOUSLY dumb, and testing backs that up 100%.

This is EXACTLY what will happen. Casters will have your "target" dead before you can get a second stack, then say something like "kill it faster, if u don't want the finger!"

The Bytcher~

[palladin9479]

They’re shooting at significantly less than twice the rate of a single crossbow.

The nerf you’re asking for is effectively already happening with longer reload animations, less double shot, and other rate of fire limiting changes on Inquisitives. The nerfs are multiplied with each other for a much bigger total effect than each individual nerf seems to present.

I thought the animation was just to NHB and not every shot because right now Inquisitives are running around shooting nonstop and blasting stuff long before people even see it. They definitely shoot faster then a regular crossbow because we can see it, nonstop stream of bolts that look like machine guns.

[Krelar]

I thought the animation was just to NHB and not every shot because right now Inquisitives are running around shooting nonstop and blasting stuff long before people even see it. They definitely shoot faster then a regular crossbow because we can see it, nonstop stream of bolts that look like machine guns.

Read the first post again, specifically the line about changes to the rapid reload feat.