nomination of for the worst fun-killers in DDO

[Dread131313]

You dont have to click find in the options select next target and select previos target and hot key them nearby and you only have to hit that one button I also suggest shutting down ALL auto targeting.

I just want to be able to friggin click on a mob ONCE to have it permanently target that mob until I click another mob, but no.... its spastic and i have to click 5 **** times to get the BIG glowy circle (basically the game saying "ok ok! I get it, you want to target THIS mob for your next nuke!".... I mean it shouldnt take 3-5 seconds TO TARGET A MOB....

I tried the "press this key to cycle between targets", but let me ask you... have you ever tried to do this with 12 kobolds surrounding you but you are trying to target the kobold shaman who keepsn nuking your ass from the back? AND have it happen fast enough that you arent sitting there fumbling with a bulky spastic targeting system without getting ripped to shreds by a horde of kobolds?

yeah, I didnt think so either.

[Thrudh]

So the code which counts the number of active mobs then applies penalties to player characters when thresholds are met requires zero resources to perform its function?

Since the vast majority of players kill mobs when they see green DA, dreading yellow/orange/red, the net effect absolutely lowers server lag.

And green DA only requires counting mobs. Do you have any idea how good computers are at counting?

[Thrudh]

....It requires enforcing playstyles. Its not like killzone tactics just happened when DDO player characters got AOE abilities.

Killzone tactics still completely work, and DA even ENCOURAGES it...

DA does discourage running past all mobs and killing nothing. THAT playstyle is indeed discouraged. But gathering up mobs for killzones is not discouraged.

[Dread131313]

Flavor killer mode: AKA reaper mode

When it comes to difficulty scaling, DDO's reaper mode doesn't do it right......... Diablo 3's greater rift system does that right.

When it comes to encouraging teamwork, reaper is good however the same could be achieved by player aura buffs that only effect nearby allies and temporary buffs granted to players for using a spell or SLA that heals or assists another player. Encouraging teamwork in a video game is just about encouraging the following: Communication, staying together, dividing responsibilities fairly, and trying to improve the strength and survivability of your team mates.

Reaper kills flavor builds and stealth builds, hence it destroys a portion of enjoyment for certain players in which effectively hurts the game.

Lately it's been much easier to find non-reaper groups, but I do enjoy a challenge..... just not so much when it hinders the flavor I desire in the game.

I beg the DDO devs to rebalance reaper after playing Diablo 3 and learning the intricacies of building for Soloing greater rift 70+, since Diablo 3 is extremely casual player friendly this shouldn't be too difficult.

Be careful, I asked the same thing regarding high DC traps in elite for new players in another thread and I got chewed out basically.

[Dread131313]

Another thing that really kills me is this:

"There is no target"

WHEN TRYING TO CAST DDoor.....

[Chai]

Compared to actually crunching pathmaps, yes

By degree true.

As an absolute. False.

Whats worse, is this aggro transmission mechanic you guys put in which tore the stealth system up from the floor up, is actually causing MORE dungeon alert.

I mean come on, when that spider that detected the stealther gets on its cell phone and calls the ooze at the other end of the dungeon and alerts it to the other players in the group, the taxation of resources that occurs as aggro spreads throughout the rooms in the dungeon causing mobs to all become active cant possibly be good for the lag situation.

I'm still going with "Bamboozled by a few forumites who cant stand how others play" until someone actually makes some sense out of these arbitrarily penalizing systems in a logical fashion.

[Chai]

Killzone tactics still completely work, and DA even ENCOURAGES it...

This is just silly. You know it, I know it, and Jesus knows it .

DA does discourage running past all mobs and killing nothing. THAT playstyle is indeed discouraged.

The real reason this was implemented.

I'm still going with "Bamboozled by a few forumites who cant stand how others play" until someone actually makes some sense out of these arbitrarily penalizing systems in a logical fashion.

Keep in mind Im not contesting that more active mobs = more resources needed. Im contesting the "solution" (again ROFL) they they chose, over optimizing the code for better performance like you know, every other MMO.

But gathering up mobs for killzones is not discouraged.

Silly.

And wrong.

[Lynnabel]

Im contesting the "solution" (again ROFL) they they chose, over optimizing the code for better performance like you know, every other MMO.

This is completely false. It's a proverbial canary in the DDO coalmine. DA was not implemented as a solution for lag, only as an indicator and a disincentive to stress our pathing system.

[Dread131313]

Play the way I tell you to, not the way you want to.

-Said no successful video game marketing team member ever.

Fixed that for ya chief.

[Dread131313]

1) Whiners

2) Whiny threads

Elitists who whine about whiners in whiny threads.

[Chacka_DDO]

EQ1 mobs can overlap each other. There is no pathfinding with each other, just the character they are chasing.

The fact that 6 trolls in DDO can't occupy the same space is a GOOD thing. One, it looks better. Two, it gives you more strategy options. You use a door or another tight space as a choke point in DDO, where only 1-2 trolls can try to hit you at once, while the others have to wait behind the first two. You can circle strafe a mob, and keep it between you and the other mobs.

DDO has real-time physics detection. You can dodge an arrow, you can move behind another player, and watch the arrow hit him instead of you.

The reason DDO has better combat than many other MMOs is also the reason its CPU resources are more highly taxed.

No one stops anyone from gathering up mobs for killzones.

In fact, DA ENCOURAGES that. It wants you to kill the mobs, not run past them. You can run past a few groups, gather them up, kill them... That works with DA.

But running past the entire dungeon without killing anything puts a load on the server as more and more mobs have to do calculations.

I don't play many other games but I think the example from EverQuest is not that unjustified if you see this game is even older than DDO.
And I played Diablo 3 recently for some weeks and also there I can agro tons of monsters without any noticeable lag and they don't use any kind of Dungeon Alert to prevent players from runing trough a Dungeon without killing anything.
And as far as I can see the monsters in Diablo 3 also don't overlap and it feels quite similar to DDO when it comes to pathing just without lag and Dungeon Alert.
I think you try to defend DDO and the developers because you like the game and all and thats of course understandable but the question is if this is really helpful.
I think a lot of the server load problems are plain and simple based on bad code and this should be changed if any possible rather than the try to find excuses.

Sure, they could just have the mobs de-activate after you run past. But that's a terrible solution.

Is this really that terrible? And currently we have the extreme of hive-minded monsters, they instantly inform each other in extreme to the last corner of the dungeon, personally, I would call this way more terrible!
And if you don't believe me try to go to the purple side in Twilight Forge and agro only one monster there and see what happens.

A perfect way to make 80% of the quests completely trivial and ruin the game. Just run past all the mobs, kill the boss, get the chest. No, thank you.

Also here I tell you this is just a matter of your opinion, in Diablo 3 it is an often an accepted strategy to just run trough.
It is even needed for some achievements if you play the seasons because without this tactic it is impossible to do some tasks in time.
And for me, this feels not at all bad.
But if you want to prevent players from doing this there certainly other ways than something like Dungeon Alert.
You can e.g. make it an objective to kill a certain number of monsters and before you don't do this the end that doesn't open and the quest doesn't finish.
Or you could give less experience if you finish a quest too fast (because then you certainly just ran trough)
Or other ideas I don't have but maybe you?
Players just try to find an effective way that is preferably fun for them to "win" a game there is nothing wrong in it.
The question is if the right way is punishment if a player uses the most effective way or make another way more effective/rewarding.

I almost never see DA. It's still broken in a few quests, where you walk into a room and get the instant yellow/orange/red alert, but it works fine in 98% of the game. Just kill most of the mobs as you move through the dungeon, and DA is a non-factor.

Honestly, either you just exaggerate or you don't have enough experience with the game if you seriously believe in this numbers.

[Chai]

This is completely false. It's a proverbial canary in the DDO coalmine. DA does not cause lag, nor was it meant to prevent it technically.

If it was false then the process would consume zero resources.

We've aggregated multiple explanations from other employees who did explain to us its there to address lag.

If this is incorrect, please explain why DA exists.

Edit: Id also like to know why its necessary in DDO but no other game. If this means having to divulge proprietary information regarding the differences in how the calculations are performed, give me the mundane layman "non programmer" explanation instead.

P.S. Im glad some DEVs/QA folks are actually talking about this. Its a step in the right direction. Even if/when we disagree, thanks for that much at least.

[Chacka_DDO]

Yes, we totally have a list for zergers and throttle their traffic.

NOT.

Real talk here for a minute. Every time you hit red alert the Lag Jesus kills a puppy with a vacuum in your name and Santa adds a lump of coal to your stocking stuffers. And then they fistbump, sigh and shake their heads.

Think of it this way, dungeon alert is a way for you to know how much your instance contributes to server lag. It's guilt all the way down.

This is quite humorous
But seriously it could give you the idea that instances with Dungeon Alert yellow or red could send a message and then you could notice in which quest or slayer area you have often Dungeon Alert in DDO in with it more server load and lag.
And then you could maybe do some needed investigation on your own or ask players what happens there (e.g. in the forum).
And maybe you should consider that the players are often enough not guilty at all or they just act like they do because it makes the most sense for them in this situation
And the better way might be when you change something so it makes more sense for the player to act more server load friendly.

[Chacka_DDO]

This is completely false. It's a proverbial canary in the DDO coalmine. DA was not implemented as a solution for lag, only as an indicator and a disincentive to stress our pathing system.

interesting contradiction FlimsyFirewood stated this:

It's ironic how your number 2 was implemented to deal with number 1.

Pro hint: pathfinding is an expensive calculation.

number 1 was lag and number 2 was Dungeon Alert.

And if lag is only intended to be an indicator it is very strange that it works as a movement speed debuff etc.
And how about finding real solutions for lag?
This is obviously very important to not lose players and even more if your intention is to have more players in DDO.

Edit.
In any case, I can also say the amount of communication in this thread is impressive and I appreciate that!
And maybe there can be also communication about other things that kill the fun for players and not only Dungeon Alert and server lag.

But forgive me when I say that I'm now even more convinced that one long-term goal for DDO should be to completely remove Dungeon Alert.
I question the whole idea because out of my sight it adds to something that is not fun (server lag) another thing that is also no fun.
And if there is any real reason for Dungeon Alert you should rather try to remove the reason than punishing players with such a game mechanic.
I hope it is not only my opinion that DDO should be as much as possible fun for the players.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Timers on hirelings. I've experimented with some of the issues,. When any hireling's timer runs out, and the others in inventory have not, and you finish out from quest, the expired hireling also removes other hirelings that were active, but had time left on them.

*The CSR's have been super at answering tickets, and replacing Store purchased hirelings when they investigate and see proof of transaction and circumstance.

[Dalris_Thane]

A perfect way to make 80% of the quests completely trivial and ruin the game. Just run past all the mobs, kill the boss, get the chest. No, thank you.

I hear you. DDO Devs and players it seems, really hate invis run. I get it. Different games are different. City of Heroes example coming... I'll try and decrease the lingo as much as I can.

With my tank type character, I had flight (that works indoors), stealth (toggle), invisibility (toggle), intangibility (stealth + immunity, slotted so that I could almost click it as soon as the refresh was up), permanent purple (highest tier) stealth set bonus while my run (toggle) was up and one other I forget.

Knives of Artemis were the best mobs at finding you when invisible. The top two tiers of the Knives could see me. The others couldn't. Nothing else in the game could except for scripted event mobs.

The devs went "Isn't that cool? We let you do that." I could fly through a DDO sized Temple of Elemental Evil sized dungeon, click all the stuff, kill all the specific mobs, and be done in minutes. The devs went "cool". Assume devs similar attitudes for players resisting damage, doing damage, etc...

CoH lasted 8 years ish. Not bad.

NOTE = I hear you. I hear the devs. DDO isn't CoH. In DDO, stealth and invis are to be used to enter a room and get a first strike at a specific mob, +bonus assassinate if you have it. DDO also puts limits on jump to limit our vertical freedom (unlike CoH). I understand.

I'm honestly not saying "change it". I just mean DDO (and other games that "hate" stealth / invis play) makes me miss CoH... That's all. Again... not asking to change it. But I do miss games that invis, fly/speed-run, click, win... wasn't considered "ruin the game". That's all. I hope you hear me... in return.

[Draxis]

This is completely false. It's a proverbial canary in the DDO coalmine. DA was not implemented as a solution for lag, only as an indicator and a disincentive to stress our pathing system.

This. Most MMOs solve this by A) Throwing more servers at the problem and, probably more importantly, B) Make mobs rubber-band after a certain point. DDO can't do that. I doubt they make the money for the servers they'd need and rubber-banding mobs would make zerging content trivial.

Y'all need to stop trying to surreptitiously justify your right to zerg without DA/lag.

[Lynnabel]

City of Heroes example coming... I'll try and decrease the lingo as much as I can.

I loved City of Heroes so much, man. Ugh.

That being said, in DDO, we reward you for completing quests, rather than in CoH, which rewards you for killing monsters. CoH's incentive to not skip mob packs was you'd simply get less XP. City of Heroes' reward structure was all about direct and immediate reward for defeating foes. We have a little more freedom (pun intended even though I played on Virtue) because we can reward non-combat, and although Conquest does give people more XP for killing proportionally more monsters, finishing a quest with 0 kills will still give you something, rather than nothing.

I should have been a little clearer, sorry Chaka. What I meant was "DA was not implemented as a technical solution to pathing lag, but as a visible disincentive to drag monsters around, which degrades game performance. This theoretically does help game performance, because it stops players from inadvertently putting the game state in a bad place." Hope this clears it up a little

[ahpook]

DDO Devs and players it seems, really hate invis run.

I have no problem with Devs disliking invis run but they needed to handle it with counter tactics and environmental changes. Not some stupid meta effect like DA with a global non-sensical and unavoidable debuff. Unfortunately, they have added so much content since putting DA into play, I doubt that they could even do a proper job at this time.

[Draxis]

I have no problem with Devs disliking invis run but they needed to handle it with counter tactics and environmental changes. Not some stupid meta effect like DA with a global non-sensical and unavoidable debuff. Unfortunately, they have added so much content since putting DA into play, I doubt that they could even do a proper job at this time.

I'm seriously curious what kind of counter tactics and environmental changes you'd suggest. I personally can't think of any that wouldn't either trivialize content or impose an equally-infuriating BS restriction, like locking a door ahead of you until you've killed some trailing mobs.