Why play a melee character at all?

[cru121]

could a new mechanic like this help?

When you swing a melee weapon, you get a defensive focus counter. Which would stack up to let's say 500.
Whenever you cast a spell or SLA, you lose some of your defensive focus (say 40 for a cocoon or 100 for a wail of the banshee).
Defensive focus would somehow increase your defense. Maybe a multiplier to your PRR/MRR?
Switching to a ranged/thrown weapon would lose all stacks.

Not sure how to make this compatible with tanks though...

[phillymiket]

could a new mechanic like this help?

When you swing a melee weapon, you get a defensive focus counter. Which would stack up to let's say 500.
Whenever you cast a spell or SLA, you lose some of your defensive focus (say 40 for a cocoon or 100 for a wail of the banshee).
Defensive focus would somehow increase your defense. Maybe a multiplier to your PRR/MRR?
Switching to a ranged/thrown weapon would lose all stacks.

Not sure how to make this compatible with tanks though...

Not sure but I like the mode of thinking.
Gaining stacks of <something defensive> from not casting etc sounds about right.
(sorry to bog down the thread with my technical jargon and detailed specifics)

[phillymiket]

If you dont play the game, you dont know the state of the game, simple as that. Look at this thread: OP states melees arent fun and dont work in reaper. Others say they do. If you dont play the game, you cant know which is true. You dont even know how melees plays In reaper. If you do not have much experience about something, people will not take you seriously when you talk about it.

Mind you, you can still join the discussion and pretend you know what you are talking about, but doesn't mean people wont notice

Yours seems just a doom post. "Too many dont even want one" seems just a generic statement with no real value. Every suggestion is shouted down by the same people in pretty much every thread as they want DDO to not be DDO.

Actually OP asked the question "why play a melee at all?" - a far more open question than a debate about High Reaper tactics.
DDO was always many different things and had a varied player base.
Community was what made DDO great.
The DOOOOO00M!!!!11!! is real.
I'd love the game to come back to being varied and open, but it is too far gone for that.
At this point I'd just like a bone tossed to melee and stealth to bring back those playstyles for me.
Your milage may vary.

[Wizza]

Actually OP asked the question "why play a melee at all?" - a far more open question than a debate about High Reaper tactics.

Melees are incredibly easy to play at lower skulls, both in Epic and Heroic. The discussion has been pretty much, since the beginning, about High Reaper tactics.

I'd love the game to come back to being varied and open, but it is too far gone for that.
At this point I'd just like a bone tossed to melee

Noone disagrees with that. However, the most realistic suggestions are all being shouted down in the name of "better AI, more competing playstyle" and yadda yadda, unrealistic dreams that never existed in DDO and will never happen.

I personally believe melees only need help in boss' fights, as they are fine in the rest of the quest. There are mobs currently that caster cannot CC that a melee can CC, their DPS is fine and everyone gets one-shotted. So is stealth. But I can also see melees getting help in the CC department as it was suggested. Giving melees more CC options to complement casters would do a lot for melees in the current state of the game. But when people refuse to even take the ones that we already have in game, then it becomes useless having a discussion.

[Forzah]

could a new mechanic like this help?

When you swing a melee weapon, you get a defensive focus counter. Which would stack up to let's say 500.
Whenever you cast a spell or SLA, you lose some of your defensive focus (say 40 for a cocoon or 100 for a wail of the banshee).
Defensive focus would somehow increase your defense. Maybe a multiplier to your PRR/MRR?
Switching to a ranged/thrown weapon would lose all stacks.

Not sure how to make this compatible with tanks though...

Very interesting idea. Looks pretty simple to program and it might just work. Of course somebody will find some way to exploit this, so it's important to get the values right

[AzureDragonas]

I keep wondering why so many ppl in this thread talks about "fixes" in game to compensate "issues" of players. There are videos where R10 is done by melees in balanced groups, not pugs but actual melee players, and i don't see issues there.

Even right now with 30+ Reaper AP as LD warchanter(15 bard /3 fighter / 2 rog) i have stats i bet most ppl here in same thread who talks like experts don't even have.

*2+k hp in non reaper, and 2.5+k in reaper without LGS just with plain 20% for stalwart
*30 dodge
*near 200 prr with robe
*saves over 60 each.
*110+ freeze dc 120+ dire dc

And even in groups i lead i keep hearing how "hard" reaper is. I wonder how many of "pros" who talks here with their "solutions" actually knows how to play game and how to build. There are just too many "pros" who just can't accept that there are room to grow and get better, and they are just not good enough yet for higher reaper.

Point is this discussion is plain wrong because as basis is taken point of view of players who try run higher reaper while they are not ready for that and it affects other side who already are running higher reaper as it is without most of issues brought here.

[cryalotmaster]

Melees are incredibly easy to play at lower skulls, both in Epic and Heroic. The discussion has been pretty much, since the beginning, about High Reaper tactics.



Noone disagrees with that. However, the most realistic suggestions are all being shouted down in the name of "better AI, more competing playstyle" and yadda yadda, unrealistic dreams that never existed in DDO and will never happen.

I personally believe melees only need help in boss' fights, as they are fine in the rest of the quest. There are mobs currently that caster cannot CC that a melee can CC, their DPS is fine and everyone gets one-shotted. So is stealth. But I can also see melees getting help in the CC department as it was suggested. Giving melees more CC options to complement casters would do a lot for melees in the current state of the game. But when people refuse to even take the ones that we already have in game, then it becomes useless having a discussion.

Like casters cried about to be hold bots in old epics, some of us don't want to play "support" classes for other builds.

[cryalotmaster]

I keep wondering why so many ppl in this thread talks about "fixes" in game to compensate "issues" of players. There are videos where R10 is done by melees in balanced groups, not pugs but actual melee players, and i don't see issues there.

Even right now with 30+ Reaper AP as LD warchanter(15 bard /3 fighter / 2 rog) i have stats i bet most ppl here in same thread who talks like experts don't even have.

*2+k hp in non reaper, and 2.5+k in reaper without LGS just with plain 20% for stalwart
*30 dodge
*near 200 prr with robe
*saves over 60 each.
*110+ freeze dc 120+ dire dc

And even in groups i lead i keep hearing how "hard" reaper is. I wonder how many of "pros" who talks here with their "solutions" actually knows how to play game and how to build. There are just too many "pros" who just can't accept that there are room to grow and get better, and they are just not good enough yet for higher reaper.

Point is this discussion is plain wrong because as basis is taken point of view of players who try run higher reaper while they are not ready for that and it affects other side who already are running higher reaper as it is without most of issues brought here.

Your stats are low, you can get better keep trying.

Even then it does not the game more fun for a melee in high skulls.

[AzureDragonas]

Your stats are low, you can get better keep trying.

Even then it does not the game more fun for a melee in high skulls.

If they are low from your point of view feel free to share yours.

For what is fun and what is not, if "fun" to you translates in soloing everything as easy as possible, there is Casual? For ppl like me EE was a joke for long time even prior reaper, and reaper brought back fun to play melee again where group don't consists of 6 soloers in same party.

[KingNite]

If you dont play the game, you dont know the state of the game, simple as that. Look at this thread: OP states melees arent fun and dont work in reaper. Others say they do. If you dont play the game, you cant know which is true. You dont even know how melees plays In reaper. If you do not have much experience about something, people will not take you seriously when you talk about it.

Mind you, you can still join the discussion and pretend you know what you are talking about, but doesn't mean people wont notice

Spot on.

[cryalotmaster]

Most people i know that quitted the game, tried reaper for a few time before quit.

Not only melee builds.

After 6 months away they can give their opinion because nothing changed.

[Marshal_Lannes]

So enjoy your r1 pro runs.

Azure made a very good point and it is comments like this which really derail any discussion. Where did he say R1 (whatever pro runs are)? You think he needs 2000 HPs, 200 PRR and 100+ DCs for R1? Heck, my current weird Morninglord PL Ranger/Cleric build is using ML 15 gear and doing R1 (pro? lol) through epics up to L24. The one L20+ item I have is a bow. So, granted, ranged character but next Morninglord PL I'll be doing a melee based Paladin and it will be the same sort of gear. I level through 20-24 so fast there is no point in having L20 gear. Low level reaper is really not that difficult if you play smart and that is the problem - people learned to play poorly after years of blowing through elite content. I see it all the time in Reaper, the person who blazes ahead and tries to drop a BB or Wail and they spawn a Famine Reaper and get killed. Or the gnome who is PKing his way through a dungeon then runs into a mob that won't be PK'd and he gets crushed in 2.7 seconds. Plenty of Casters and Ranged characters get killed in Reaper if they aren't playing with the Reaper mentality. Since this thread has been active I've been watching melee players and I have seen many very skilled ones who make it work. There some who don't belong in Reaper and they die a lot.

I said pages ago the gist of the thread is that a poor player will have the illusion of more success on a caster/ranged character over a poor player who is using a melee. That's because they are of course at range. Chai has pointed out these poor players might think they are contributing because with an XBow they are plinking away for 8 damage a pop while not being killed where the melee has 6 deaths in the quest and has everyone groaning oh he died again. Does that make the Xbow Arty any better a player? No, not really which goes to Azure's point above most of us just aren't really capable of running R10 yet (or ever).

[KingNite]

I personally believe melees only need help in boss' fights, as they are fine in the rest of the quest. There are mobs currently that caster cannot CC that a melee can CC, their DPS is fine and everyone gets one-shotted.

I don't agree with it. I think regular trash on r10 one shoting melees is too punishing for them. Yeah, I know wait for CC to be in place before you go full R dps, but still... If for whatever reason CC wears off and mobs are still alive you are dead with 1 shot... Not even time to retaliate quickly to get healed and let CC be reaplied. Honestly I think giving them some more PRR and/or HP so they can at least take 1 regular trash mob hit without die on r10 would be very helpfull for them.

[KingNite]

I said pages ago the gist of the thread is that a poor player will have the illusion of more success on a caster/ranged character over a poor player who is using a melee. That's because they are of course at range. Chai has pointed out these poor players might think they are contributing because with an XBow they are plinking away for 8 damage a pop while not being killed where the melee has 6 deaths in the quest and has everyone groaning oh he died again. Does that make the Xbow Arty any better a player? No, not really which goes to Azure's point above most of us just aren't really capable of running R10 yet (or ever).

Good point. Also it is a common thing to give for granted that being at distance is automatic or the easiest thing in the world. To kite while killing at the same time properly takes some degree of skill, is not that you are automatically at safe distance and the mobs can't never hit you, you have to "work" for it too. Playing a ranged character good is not as easy as some here try to make it sound. Ranged characters are easy to play if all you want is to not die, but they are not so easy to play properly as some may be missgided to think. What I mean is, to just kite is easy you just have to focus on 1 thing. But to kite and do good DPS at the same time is definetly not easy, specially if you play a build with many active atacks.

[nokowi]

Melees are incredibly easy to play at lower skulls, both in Epic and Heroic. The discussion has been pretty much, since the beginning, about High Reaper tactics.

Noone disagrees with that. However, the most realistic suggestions are all being shouted down in the name of "better AI, more competing playstyle" and yadda yadda, unrealistic dreams that never existed in DDO and will never happen.

Kind of like your own posting about how things need to be tradable, or how high reaper needs more RXP, or how every boss should have a repeating swarm of mobs.

When it's your idea, you have a different standard than when it is someone else's.

I personally believe melees only need help in boss' fights, as they are fine in the rest of the quest. There are mobs currently that caster cannot CC that a melee can CC, their DPS is fine and everyone gets one-shotted. So is stealth. But I can also see melees getting help in the CC department as it was suggested. Giving melees more CC options to complement casters would do a lot for melees in the current state of the game. But when people refuse to even take the ones that we already have in game, then it becomes useless having a discussion.

So melee only need help on bosses, and your solution is more cc?

These two ideas contradict each other unless you are talking about melee being able to cc all the bosses.

Please make up your mind - do they need help outside of bosses, or not?




The issue here is that you are not an expert in all of these things, and while you like to give reasons why other people's opinion's can't matter, you are not an expert in stealth. You previously said an entire playstyle was removed, in fact.

So is stealth fine (what you say now) or is an entire play style removed (what you said in the past)?



What would help is if you tell us what change would believe help against melee vs bosses, instead of supporting cc options for trash mobs that you said melee didn't need any help with.

[Wizza]

I don't agree with it. I think regular trash on r10 one shoting melees is too punishing for them. Yeah, I know wait for CC to be in place before you go full R dps, but still... If for whatever reason CC wears off and mobs are still alive you are dead with 1 shot... Not even time to retaliate quickly to get healed and let CC be reaplied. Honestly I think giving them some more PRR and/or HP so they can at least take 1 regular trash mob hit without die on r10 would be very helpfull for them.

Trash one shots everyone. In game, I usually get aggro more than melees, because my fogs aggro the mobs before melees swing and them, and if they aren't CCed because they saved or immune, they come after me. So I don't think one-shots are too punishing for them. I think wait for CC is a plausible solution. If CC wears off, then yes, you should die, and so should the others, since it's the whole premise of Reaper.

More CC helps them with those mobs that save/are immune to casters' CC. I would say it's a nice option for them, but that's just my opinion. If you believe they need more HP/PRR, then we will just disagree.

[KingNite]

Trash one shots everyone. In game, I usually get aggro more than melees, because my fogs aggro the mobs before melees swing and them, and if they aren't CCed because they saved or immune, they come after me. So I don't think one-shots are too punishing for them. I think wait for CC is a plausible solution. If CC wears off, then yes, you should die, and so should the others, since it's the whole premise of Reaper.

More CC helps them with those mobs that save/are immune to casters' CC. I would say it's a nice option for them, but that's just my opinion. If you believe they need more HP/PRR, then we will just disagree.

Well the thing is not always the CC come form the caster, melees can CC by themselves too. If they break free and for whatever reason go after the melee they have no time to react cause they are in close range, so half a mistake means death with 1 shot mechanics. Casters and ranged have more time to react to any of those situations since they are at distance. That's why I think allowing melees to take 1 hit at least vs trash would help they a lot while not breaking anything or making it just too easy.

[KingNite]

This is the main problem.

Letting melees take 1 hit is not enough, since every encounter now has 20 mobs.

Wouldn't still be better than the current situation? Hard to find the perfect solution. That won't solve everything, of course, but I think all melees would appereciate it when running high skulls.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Another thing to keep in mind is that I don't feel any changes should be made with R10 in mind. R10 is supposed to kill you. If there are current work arounds to R10 then those should be looked into (like all mobs immune to charm on R10) instead of elevating other play styles to R10. R10 I firmly believe should kill you. With that in mind I don't think we should be using R10 as the meta for melee survival. How do they survive on R7 should be the actual question.

[Yamani]

We need good game design not everything that touchs you means 9000 damage.

Did you ever think that maybe reaper 10 just isn't for you? But the people who put time and consideration into who they group with, the builds they do, and "teamwork"?