Why play a melee character at all?

[BigErkyKid]

However, you leave out the most important part of your proposal. What new revenue sources does it create? You say it is by making the game the product. Ok. What does that look like? What are they selling? For how much? How does that compare to the revenue generated today? What new customers will it attract, if any? Does that offset the losses you forsee in your own projection? How quickly? Without those details, all you have is an idea with a negative cost/benefit analysis and a negative ROI. None of that has anything to do with DDO myths. It's just business finance.

A balanced game with long time stability (people can focus on a preferred archetype if they want) has an appealing side. Ultimately, part of the business model is having people play. More odds that they drop some money for whatever reason.

The current trend of invalidating content and builds with massive power creep and imbalances makes some financial sense. But ultimately it is burning the ground around you. For example, reaper was supposed to be the "achievements / challenge" mode, yet the achievements section is as dead now as it was in the recent past. And all of us are aware that beating high reaper is more a matter of cheesing than anything else.

By constantly adding vertical progression in huge leaps, and constantly altering the META in very drastic ways, they have put off a lot of players. There used to be class experts in the forums. Andoris for pale master, cookie queen for bards, some others for tanks (reignbeau), Cetus for fighters, and many others. People who focused on certain archetypes and put together builds and showed achievements.

But in recent years the FOTM has been changing brutally (I think that since balance passes, more radically than before). FOTM strategies and builds are pulling massively ahead of the last big thing. My impression is that a lot of people got sick of it and just stopped trying. What we have now is a more limited group of players that are constantly switching with the META.

This must have affected the player base numbers. I am quite certain, although obviously I don't have proof. And ultimately revenue is people x per capita spending. They might be able to somehow boost spending by selling power like they are doing, and getting people to TR and change builds, but ultimately my impression is that they are losing a lot of the people side of the expression.

We have seen a lot of cost saving measures in recent years, from server migration to cutting on customer service. I can't tell, but I also think they are using fewer devs than ever on the game. And community and management is now divided between LOTRO and DDO.

I think they are going with a semi organized retreat, dismantling the game somehow slowly. Going with cheap development and banking on "must have it all" grindy mentalities to keep it afloat without investing in content generation and good balance.

[KingNite]

I think this is closer to the truth. The imbalance in this game is caused almost fully by introducing new systems that add significant power, without keeping balance in mind. Due to this, the small nerfs that have been done were invalidated quickly. In environments where small drops of power are taken away while at the same time full buckets of power are given back, you cannot conclude that nerfing will never work. It is simply a matter of not adding new buckets of power.

Not really. The nerfs done were invalidated quickly cause often the ones demanding the nerfs have no clue about such builds meaning that often they nerf the worng build or ability. I agree with the part where they introduce new power systems/clasess/gear that often are not well balanced and they could be more carefull with it, but you know what, it sells, most peps jump into it immediatly and become very popular quickly. As quickly as some others jump into the forums to demand it nerfed cause it ruins their fun... asking them to either nerf those that want to use the power or buff them to keep things even. It has happen countless times and the result is always the opposite as the one desired and certainly has not brought any more balance


Maybe if those chronic forum complainers learned to have fun w/o worring too much what others do or how others play and let the devs handle that we wouldn't have so many power updates and less nonsensical nerfs. Now if your suggestion is for them to not sell power at all, well... it may make sense for you, which is legit. But it does not for all the people who jumped on the warlock train, those are a lot, and they have to keep as much peps as happy as they can.

Woudn't it be better to let those who like it enjoy it while they fund the game you can play w/o this, according to you, game breaking powers? I mean how them using this power affects you? I've got a build nerfed cause some peps with who I never played complained for years here that I ruined their fun with my build... Is there anytyhing more ridiculous than that, hardly. And of course it can only have a bad ending. I dunno if it's general or not, but I have the feeling that the more they listen to the forum nefs cryers the worst it tuns later for the game. The reason is that I think the forums are hardly representative of the playerbase since they tend to be flooded by peps who are exessively obssesed with the game balance and power, which is not the profile of the average joe playing the game.

[Rog]

...but I destroy in reaper.

p.s. not a single caster complains when I smoke those held mobs in R7-10, saving EVERYONE time and resources and likewise I dont complain when they PK/Finger/Wail one Im not critting on...

p.s.s they really dont get mad when I drop the will saves of everything I hit because I farmed for Visions of Precision.

p.s.s.s. when the 8 mobs I dire charge into are stunned and shaken and have -2 to their saves because of the enhancments I pick they arnt crying for me to quit.

p.s.s.s.s. after I save a caster by tripping the mob fixing to one shot him...well nvm, you get the point.

p.s.s.s.s.s. for those who dont get it...there is nothing wrong with melee in a team, teamwork, communication and tactics are key. If you are running around with a showboat, thats your fault and just enjoy the free loot.

p.s.s.s.s.s.s. ping pong is a fun game

Simple fact you have to grind real hard and build a solid toon.
range means your to weak to handle aggro. it works for now allows players to complete quest and get rxp.
after the reaper trees are filled rtr is done then i will judge melee in reaper.
if i wanted a solid monk build instead of a burn throw away build i can instant kill entire rooms with my ien on r6.
as it is build tr them build them again really do not care my toons do not last long enough.
mojomuscle

[KingNite]

For example, reaper was supposed to be the "achievements / challenge" mode, yet the achievements section is as dead now as it was in the recent past. And all of us are aware that beating high reaper is more a matter of cheesing than anything else.

That's simply not true. Reaper was suposed to be a new difficulty to run the same quests we already have with increased challenge across all 30 levels, with 10 diferent new difficulties within it. That's what they said from day 1 and thety were very clear with it, I never saw them talk about achievements or engame. Those who think/thought it was end game/achievements/extreme challenge only deluded yourselves into thinking it, and pushed hard for it to be this way. Ths's legit, but they never said that or promised anything like that to anyone unless it was done privately, which I doubt. That too, was pretty obvious to anyone able to put his brain above his ego who bothered trying it on lama for a few hours. Crystal clear.

But in recent years the FOTM has been changing brutally (I think that since balance passes, more radically than before). FOTM strategies and builds are pulling massively ahead of the last big thing. My impression is that a lot of people got sick of it and just stopped trying. What we have now is a more limited group of players that are constantly switching with the META.

This must have affected the player base numbers. I am quite certain, although obviously I don't have proof. And ultimately revenue is people x per capita spending. They might be able to somehow boost spending by selling power like they are doing, and getting people to TR and change builds, but ultimately my impression is that they are losing a lot of the people side of the expression.

While I think you are right that there are some thing really out of control of the late, people who constantly change builds to adapt to the new META/FOTM don't tend to be upset about it, they often do it willingly cause they are mostly interested in power and as long the new build gives them more power they are fine. What really upsets people is having to change your build to something more weak and/or boring even if you don't want to cause some m**** with who you never partied crys and crys on the forums you run his/her fun and your build got messed.

[BigErkyKid]

While I think you are right that there are some thing really out of control of the late, people who constantly change builds to adapt to the new META/FOTM don't tend to be upset about it, they often do it willingly cause they are mostly interested in power and as long the new build gives them more power they are fine. What really upsets people is having to change your build to something more weak and/or boring even if you don't want to cause some m**** with who you never partied crys and crys on the forums you run his/her fun and your build got messed.

Exactly, this is what I am saying. People who just change with the META tend to be OK with switching builds (although I have seen people get burnt out doing the too). But this is DnD, a lot of people like some archetypes, they are not just looking for higher numbers, they like to play a certain flavor.

They have scared away pretty badly a lot of "class experts". That is the part of the game I loved, niche builds, class experts, people completing tough content without "cheating the AI".

I hope no one takes this personally, but as an example I thought that Cetus had more accomplishment integrity than Sestra. Even though Sestra was an excellent player that could play very well a melee, ranged, or caster type. Cetus stayed melee through the ups and downs and made it work, whereas Sestra switched to the FOTM every update. Just need to check the build threads by both players.

There is no right or wrong way, but we are entitled to our preferences. Currently DDO caters too much to the META people for my taste, and punishes pretty brutally the flavor players. By flavor here understand those who want to stick to an archetype. it also punishes you for specializing in any one archetype and class, often introducing massive imbalances either by game modes / content (reaper, legendary raids when they were released), or across classes (compare a barbarian THF and a fighter THF).

The issue I see, and the reason why I keep posting, is that the devs don't necessarily screw up balance willingly. My impression is that they just don't have the time and game knowledge to keep the game somehow balanced.

[KingNite]

Exactly, this is what I am saying. People who just change with the META tend to be OK with switching builds (although I have seen people get burnt out doing the too). But this is DnD, a lot of people like some archetypes, they are not just looking for higher numbers, they like to play a certain flavor.


Currently DDO caters too much to the META people for my taste, and punishes pretty brutally the flavor players. By flavor here understand those who want to stick to an archetype. it also punishes you for specializing in any one archetype and class,

The issue I see, and the reason why I keep posting, is that the devs don't necessarily screw up balance willingly. My impression is that they just don't have the time and game knowledge to keep the game somehow balanced.

Do you understand that when you ( or anyone) asks for nerfs not only the people abusing the META gets screwed? There are peps who just enjoy to play a build and played it for years w/o it being the meta cause its fun for them and get hit all the same when it suddenly becomes the META. Why care so much about peps abusing it to start with?

Some styles/builds, whatever you want to call it, are behind, ok. It worries you and that's legit. Why then don't give them suggestions to put those up to the rest instead of screwing builds others enjoy? Maybe you think they have it too easy for your taste and you would prefer everyone having it as hard as you? They don't seem to think the same... Actually powergaming ( or having it easy, you name it ) seems way more popular than what you describe right now, just see how many warlocks we had around when they first released it and was the new toy.

And alternative to that is get over it enjoy the archetype you play don't worry about what others do or play and hope that there is no one like you who in his attempt to impose his vision of the game to everyone or punish those who follow the META gets your favorite build screwed as a side consequence. It really s****, I can tell you.

Nerfs never make anyone happy those abusing builds always find a way around, and so the nerf demanders are never happy, those not abusing and affected just becasue aren't more happy either. Sometimes good intentions can lead to the worst results if not thought well enough.

[BigErkyKid]

Do you understand that when you ( or anyone) asks for nerfs not only the people abusing the META gets screwed? There are peps who just enjoy to play a build and played it for years w/o it being the meta cause its fun for them and get hit all the same when it suddenly becomes the META. Why care so much about peps abusing it to start with?

Some styles/builds, whatever you want to call it, are behind, ok. It worries you and that's legit. Why then don't give them suggestions to put those up to the rest instead of screwing builds others enjoy? .

People who like to play a build don't need it to be uberest ever. The problem is that no build /archetype should pull ahead by so much EVER. Then we wouldn't need to talk about nerfs.

Buffing everything to the new level is absolutely terrible. By doing that, you destroy content. And then you freaking need reaper.

They just need to be better at balancing things from the beginning. They need to devote more manpower to testing the consequences of their actions. Are you aware that they never even bothered to check the effect of holy sword on crit profiles when they released paladin? They thought it would give +1 range, instead of doubling crit range. This is just an example, warlock with the Nth round of nerfs is another. They don't have a good grasp of the effects of what they code, they are eyeballing it.

Rushed BS development is what brought us here, and every day they add more unbalanced rushed BS. Reaper was developed in a freaking update using extremely little manpower (a dev has stated so in here). Is anyone surprised that is full of glitches, cheese, and imbalanced as heck?

People switching with the META are just a fraction of the total player base. META players don't give a dime about balance, so listening to their defense of unbalanced builds is a no go.

If you don't understand why balancing is important in any game I don't think I'll be able to convince you.

[Chai]

Not really. I'm not not pushing back based on myths of the DDO community over a decade. I am sure there are different ways to monetize an MMO/RPG than the ones being used by DDO today.

Your idea is just half presented/half baked and I'm pointing that out. You suggest making balance changes to the game. Any changes made cost money. Nobody works for free. So there is an expense to doing what you want. You claim it eliminates revenue sources. That means less money coming in from traditional sources. Your statement,not mine. And you claim it will alienate some portion of the existing customer base. Which will result in less revenue. Again your statement, not mine. So, you have stated that these changes will cost money, lower revenue, and lower customer head count, which lowers revenue.

However, you leave out the most important part of your proposal. What new revenue sources does it create? You say it is by making the game the product. Ok. What does that look like? What are they selling? For how much? How does that compare to the revenue generated today? What new customers will it attract, if any? Does that offset the losses you forsee in your own projection? How quickly? Without those details, all you have is an idea with a negative cost/benefit analysis and a negative ROI. None of that has anything to do with DDO myths. It's just business finance.

You still seem to think this is some idea I just made up, after being informed already once this clearly isnt the case.

I didnt just dream this up. This is how those in the industry who are currently succeeding, are doing so. I am merely observing this fact.

You are indeed pushing back, just as I outlined would happen, but instead of actually stating a position regarding whats successful int he market and what isnt, you attempt to assert or imply this is something one poster dreamed up in a half baked fashion, which is objectively incorrect and known to be so by anyone who pays attention to the big picture of who is currently succeeding in the industry and who isnt.

[Chai]

In games I've played that were actually balanced, people typically don't talk about "META" because there is none...classes simply have their pros and cons and different playstyles. You wouldn't really compare a cleric and a barbarian because they'd both be good and bad in different ways, and having 1 of each would perform better than having 2 of either one. In balanced games I've played people were typically more concerned with diverse groups than metas.

Theres always a META, in any game. In games that are balanced the META changes on a situation by situation basis, and is not the META for the entire game.

I'm not saying that broken crappy balance is the alternative of failing to cherry pick nerf right now...I'm saying broken crappy balance is the result of a long time of mainly sticking to the philosophy "We will not nerf the top 5%, we'll buff the bottom 95%." And again...the idea that you can't get past "META" just goes to show how ridiculously broken this game is.

DDO has nerfed many times over, something in the top 5%. Much of it at the demand of the players. There are many MANY examples of this.

The issue is it doesnt cause anyone to gravitate to playing anything else that is still in the top 5% and not yet nerfed. Shifting the META slightly has never resulted in balance, no matter how much or how often it is repeated this will happen in DDO Forum Land.

You can say nerfing makes people quit if you'd like, but guess what, so does garbage for class balance.

Cherry picking and then nerfing doesnt make people stay that would have left, so the nerf in that situation causes a net loss.

Buffing doesnt cause a net loss in and of itself. Buffing also makes more money because people pay to tome out and PL out the new buffed class. While not the best class balance tactic, buffing sure is a great revenue generation tactic.

The only thing reaper was was a hail mary hoping they could reverse some of the damage that many years of too much buffing has done. In some ways it succeeded, in others it failed. Ultimately if the game wasn't so broken to begin with reaper in its current form wouldn't exist...it was like they tried to put a band aid over a severed limb without actually doing anything to address the severed limb.

As far as the charms in reaper go, its going to get fixed eventually because its obviously not meant for a charmed mob to hit harder than a decked out PC can...and guess what is going to happen when it does...people are going to take to the forums complaining because their easy button got taken away. Why do you think what some people refer to as "META" others refer to as cheese? Something like this is obviously just something the devs overlooking when coding reaper...its more or less abusing a known bug at this point.

Which will result in the same thing Ive outlined always occurs, still occurring. Take away their charms, and they will find another flavor of "cheese" to gravitate to, which will be the next thing forumites are complaining about. This is why cherry picking and nerfing never fixes the issue.

The numbers are in. Multiplicitively more instances of people complaining about how others play in this game, than the PVP game with the most complaining about how others play in it. Thats right folks, more DDO players are worried about how YOU play than top E-Sports PVP league game's players are. The example game has 17x as many players, and is a PVP oriented game. Yet far less people in THAT game, care about what tactics YOU used...

[Chai]

Not really. The nerfs done were invalidated quickly cause often the ones demanding the nerfs have no clue about such builds meaning that often they nerf the worng build or ability. I agree with the part where they introduce new power systems/clasess/gear that often are not well balanced and they could be more carefull with it, but you know what, it sells, most peps jump into it immediatly and become very popular quickly. As quickly as some others jump into the forums to demand it nerfed cause it ruins their fun... asking them to either nerf those that want to use the power or buff them to keep things even. It has happen countless times and the result is always the opposite as the one desired and certainly has not brought any more balance


Maybe if those chronic forum complainers learned to have fun w/o worring too much what others do or how others play and let the devs handle that we wouldn't have so many power updates and less nonsensical nerfs. Now if your suggestion is for them to not sell power at all, well... it may make sense for you, which is legit. But it does not for all the people who jumped on the warlock train, those are a lot, and they have to keep as much peps as happy as they can.

Woudn't it be better to let those who like it enjoy it while they fund the game you can play w/o this, according to you, game breaking powers? I mean how them using this power affects you? I've got a build nerfed cause some peps with who I never played complained for years here that I ruined their fun with my build... Is there anytyhing more ridiculous than that, hardly. And of course it can only have a bad ending. I dunno if it's general or not, but I have the feeling that the more they listen to the forum nefs cryers the worst it tuns later for the game. The reason is that I think the forums are hardly representative of the playerbase since they tend to be flooded by peps who are exessively obssesed with the game balance and power, which is not the profile of the average joe playing the game.

This.

Paladins, melee bards, assassins, and barbarians would be alot more viable nowdays if the forumites did not demand them to be neutered shortly after their class revamps.

If the top 20 nerf demanders spent the time they take filibustering on the forums actually playing the game instead, no one else would be able to "ruin their fun" on a "cheese build."

[Forzah]

DDO has nerfed many times over, something in the top 5%. Much of it at the demand of the players. There are many MANY examples of this.

Almost exclusively small nerfs which had barely any impact. Then the next update something new was introduced which was even more powerful.

The issue is it doesnt cause anyone to gravitate to playing anything else that is still in the top 5% and not yet nerfed. Shifting the META slightly has never resulted in balance, no matter how much or how often it is repeated this will happen in DDO Forum Land.

That's why it needs to be shifted a lot and not just slightly. The first thing that needs to be done is fixing the AI against ranged (should have been done years ago).

Cherry picking and then nerfing doesnt make people stay that would have left, so the nerf in that situation causes a net loss.

People are likelier to keep playing in a balanced game where many builds are interesting to play, resulting in lower losses in the long run.

Buffing doesnt cause a net loss in and of itself. Buffing also makes more money because people pay to tome out and PL out the new buffed class. While not the best class balance tactic, buffing sure is a great revenue generation tactic.

It can cause a net loss if people get angry with imbalance. It was one of the reasons for me to stop playing, so that caused a net loss of at least one player.

Which will result in the same thing Ive outlined always occurs, still occurring. Take away their charms, and they will find another flavor of "cheese" to gravitate to, which will be the next thing forumites are complaining about. This is why cherry picking and nerfing never fixes the issue.

When all builds with cheesy tactics are nerfed, a normal build becomes best again. So the issue does get fixed at some point by nerfing.

The numbers are in. Multiplicitively more instances of people complaining about how others play in this game, than the PVP game with the most complaining about how others play in it. Thats right folks, more DDO players are worried about how YOU play than top E-Sports PVP league game's players are. The example game has 17x as many players, and is a PVP oriented game. Yet far less people in THAT game, care about what tactics YOU used...

E-Sports games are generally much better balanced, hence fewer complaints. In those games the investment for changing to a different build or tactic is also very low.

[Renvar]

You still seem to think this is some idea I just made up, after being informed already once this clearly isnt the case.

I didnt just dream this up. This is how those in the industry who are currently succeeding, are doing so. I am merely observing this fact.

You are indeed pushing back, just as I outlined would happen, but instead of actually stating a position regarding whats successful int he market and what isnt, you attempt to assert or imply this is something one poster dreamed up in a half baked fashion, which is objectively incorrect and known to be so by anyone who pays attention to the big picture of who is currently succeeding in the industry and who isnt.

I'm pushing back on the fact that you are just "observing a fact". Which, in a vacuum, is an interesting sound bite or as a forum post. But in reality has no depth or substance.

There is a difference between saying "Company X is doing Y. We should do Y too and we will succeed." And an actual business analysis of how to apply that to your current business with a plan that makes sense. Anyone who has managed or owned a business and is currently succeeding in their industry knows this.

Let me give you an example: The Golden State Warriors are dominating the NBA. The Orlando Magic are terrible. The Orlando Magic fans can look at Golden State and say "They have shooters who can hit 3's at all positions and lots of 6'6"-6'9" wings that can switch on defense and defend 3-4 positions and they run a passing, cutting, constant ball movement system that is impossible to defend. We should get shooters and lots of players between 6'6" and 6'9" and run the same defenses and offenses. Then we will win too.". That is all good, in theory. But, you have 15 players currently on your roster. The have contracts that go for between 1 year and 4 years. They are a variety of ages from 19 to mid 30's. You have a salary cap. You have only so many draft picks. Because you are terrible, free agents don't want to play for you. Because you are terrible, your fan support is low and your revenue is less than other teams, thus, your facilities are weaker, your players don't get shoe deals or local endorsements (let alone national ones), you don't get national TV games on TNT or ESPN or ABC and nobody on ESPN or the Internet talks about you or your players. So, how do you manage this simple "we should do what they do"?

It takes more than just saying "we should just do it. It's what the successful team does." It requires a plan.

Sure, you have a nice sound bite. If you can't take it any further then it is just armchair monday morning QB stuff.

[Chai]

When all builds with cheesy tactics are nerfed, a normal build becomes best again. So the issue does get fixed at some point by nerfing.

Incorrect by degree. If you disagree, answer the question below, specifically.

If this never once happened in 11 years of "nerfing builds with cheesy tactics", how realistic is it to believe that it will ever happen in DDO?
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Edit:This is before we even begin discussing how "cheesy tactics" is completely subjective. What you believe to be legit someone else screams and complains on the forums calling it a "cheese build". So there will likely never be a time when no one is ever demanding some "cheese build" to be nerfed, and everyone believes the top build is now a "normal" build. Thus, it never ends.

[Chai]

I'm pushing back on the fact that you are just "observing a fact". Which, in a vacuum, is an interesting sound bite or as a forum post. But in reality has no depth or substance.
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In reality, it has 20+ years of substance. Its called the MMO industry. We can clearly see what succeeds and what fails at this point. Cherry picking and nerfing is not in the "succeeds" column.

[Renvar]

In reality, it has 20+ years of substance. Its called the MMO industry. We can clearly see what succeeds and what fails at this point. Cherry picking and nerfing is not in the "succeeds" column.

To be clear, I'm not arguing for "cherry picking and nerfing". I think that game development needs to follow a long term plan that extends years into the future. For content, loot, and systems.

[Forzah]

Incorrect by degree. If you disagree, answer the question below, specifically.

If this never once happened in 11 years of "nerfing builds with cheesy tactics", how realistic is it to believe that it will ever happen in DDO?

I don't know what incorrect by degree means. Something is either correct or incorrect.

Regarding your question, I think it has happened before and even for a period lasting several years. When the level cap was 20 and before epic ward was adjusted, the best working group was a balanced group with a healer, caster, and some melees. While that may not happen again, I think it can be done if the developers are willing.

[Chai]

I don't know what incorrect by degree means. Something is either correct or incorrect.

In the context of this conversation, it means even if your claim were to eventually happen, its not realistic to expect people to wait multiple decades for it to occur, and since we can clearly see it has never occurred over 11 years already, the time frame in which it would occur is already far into the realm of unreasonable.

Regarding your question, I think it has happened before and even for a period lasting several years. When the level cap was 20 and before epic ward was adjusted, the best working group was a balanced group with a healer, caster, and some melees. While that may not happen again, I think it can be done if the developers are willing.

This is incorrect as an absolute. There was quite a bit that was nerfed and adjusted in that era due to people complaining about lack of balance. I will provide two such examples. During the timeframe you are speaking of, people complained up a storm that you NEEDED a wizard or NEEDED a stunner and if you didnt have those, there was no reason to play anything else. Helpless+autocrit was the grouping META in epics at that time. Furthermore there was also much complaining about the "cheese" tactic of perching and crit fishing with firewalls to farm scrolls solo on a caster. This was the era when firewalls would either never crit or always crit.

The relevant nerfs and adjustments that stemmed from this era include but are not limited to:
-firewalls getting a save when the mob moves through it on the first tick
-extend no longer working on firewalls
-firewalls critting per tick rather than only doing one check per cast
-firewalls not stacking (used to stack damage, even when cast right on top of eachother)
-helpless no longer means autocrit, but nerfed to 1.5x DPS (nerf for melee, buff for casters)
-Stunning on weapons given a save making it irrelevant (used to be no save when it procced X% of the time)
-scrolls now appear in inventory rather than dropping on floor

[cryalotmaster]

This is hilarious.

First if they knew their game we would never need any nerfs.

Second if they didn't nerf some broken stuff the game would be for sure in a worst state than it is right now.

Just if you can go worst than dead.

Last if we always had cheese tatics at least it was better before than what we have now.

At this point what we need is go down to only 2 servers one with all this power creep garbage and reaper bs, we can call it "Superstars empty server".

And other one with actual D&D rules and some balance like we had 5 years ago, lets call it "Real D&D server".

This way we could be sure about what MOST people really wants.

[Forzah]

In the context of this conversation, it means even if your claim were to eventually happen, its not realistic to expect people to wait multiple decades for it to occur, and since we can clearly see it has never occurred over 11 years already, the time frame in which it would occur is already far into the realm of unreasonable.

Other MMOs do this in a single or a few updates, so I don't see why not.

[Chai]

Other MMOs do this in a single or a few updates, so I don't see why not.

Not like this they dont.

Other MMOs do not cherry pick and nerf believing this will create balance. They use nerfs and adjustments to maintain game balance that already exists through counter play, not believing they will create class balance entirely using sameness comparisons.
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Any response to the examples provided of how the era you called balanced actually very much lacked balance? Or are we just glossing over those in hopes they wont be brought up again?