Why play a melee character at all?

[Marshal_Lannes]

If there are only 4 peps running r10 is because people just don't like it.

People are not supposed to like it. It is DM Kill Mode. It is supposed to kill you. R10 is not the meta. I am not sure why it even matters if people like R10 or not.

[KingNite]

I am not sure why it even matters if people like R10 or not.

Well it doesn't matter to me since I have zero interest in running r10 and I haven't played a melee for years. I'm just trying to explain to those who constantly complain about no one to play end game (r10) with them, the reason why everyone else ignores it. Which is not easy task given that the powers of retention of those few seem to be as wet as a warthog's backside

[Wizza]

This.

If it was at least fun, some people would still do it maybe not all the time but sometimes.

I like how he wants a "fix" for melees only to improve his gameplay.

How would "a fix" for melees improve my gameplay on the Sorc?

[Wizza]

If you don't play melees stop posting just to push your agenda.

That doesn't reply my question.

And what's my agenda?

And how do you know I don't play melees?

[Wizza]

You said melees need more cc and help with bosses only. first cc is not a melee role what we have now is fine, it could be improved tho.

So I'm wrong but also you agree with me. Can't argue with such flawless reasoning.

[Carpone]

Well they dont release information on population sizes so actually nobody knows whether servers are dead or not. Using LFM's as a basis with proof that not many like hosting or joining is used to claim they are dead.

Perception is reality.

[nokowi]

Source? Do you know something about people's motivations which we do not? I came back to check it out and believe it a renaissance of DDO. I feel that Reaper is the best thing to happen to DDO since F2P. You are tossing around blanket assumptions in your posts that you cannot possibly back up. I think if you stop and actually talk to players in game and not on the forums (and those post most against Reaper don't even play it) you will see that people group now BECAUSE of Reaper. In game I find in Reaper groups an over 90% positive experience rate. No one is complaining about Reaper trees or why they can't solo R10. They are thrilled to be in a co-op group again with a team working together.

And yes that is the point of Reaper = it is DM wants to kill you! Have you never played other games "hell" mode or "extreme" mode or whatever? It is supposed to be ultra difficult.

Reaper should have been what the players asked for:

A place for challenge and grouping that only those that are interested in achievement would be interested in.

1. Very little power rewards that make content easier (this will happen through normal non-reaper gear progression)
2. Achievement based non power rewards (title, cosmetics, monthly ladder (1x per class per server) for free SSG points, guild based rewards, ability to name your sentient weapon, forum picture/title, wall of fame for in-game tavern, etc).
3. A few small power teasers (+2 stat item, mythic versions) would have been fine.

A few other game fixes:

4. Incentives for raid completion (the place where grouping and cooperation are maximized) - completing a raid once per life preserves your completions for that raid). 20x Reaper raid completion guarantees a mythic drop.

5. Racial lives are now racial destiny (earn 4,000,000 Heroic XP or 20,000,000 Epic XP, spend to gain a racial past life in your current race)



Now reaper design can be about fun and engaging game play over easy rewards.

[phillymiket]

Perception is reality.

Only in an individual's mind.
In reality, reality is reality.
For example, there is an actual number of dollars the game brings in.

Reaper should have been what the players asked for

Do you think if we stepped into the way-back machine a decade or so and asked people if they'd like the game to reskin wraiths and add them to every single quest it would have a lot of support?
How about the class balance that exists now? Would that have support?
IDK
The only real positive IMO for the design of Reaper as a new setting is that it was very cost effective for the dev team.
That said, obviously a new setting was needed.
I don't have an issue with Reaper, per se, rather just some of the details that negate too many play-styles.
But then again I don't understand what DDO "really is" and "want to make it something it's not" (which happens to be what DDO once was). Also I like to "adversely affect other players who like Reaper", in fact that's my thing, so pay no attention.

[Gremmlynn]

Some people, like me or vik1, are suggesting fixes and options within DDO's possibilities.

Other people, on "your" side, are pretending that DDO is a super high skill cap action game, and are not being realitistic to what this game can do. CC everything and then beat them down is basically the whole concept of DDO's quests. It was in the past and it's again now. Some raids have internal mechanic that makes them difficult, sure, but to pretend and ask that every quest is like that is just a dream.

Every suggestion done here by people on our side is being turned down by people on your side by basically saying "I want DDO to not be DDO, your suggestion is wrong and mine is better". You can definitely say that, but it will never happen.

vik1's suggestions seems perfectly reasonable, but they are being shouted down with "you are wrong" (lol) by someone who doesn't even play. Hence why the discussion/the thread is stagnant and will never lead anywhere.

If that were true, the best solution would be to simply remove melee as it's just a poorer way of doing the same basic thing. Poorer due to having to dive up much survivablility and having much less flexibility due to needing to move from target to target. It's also not true outside of maybe mid-high skull reaper, regardless of content.

It's not a matter of one side being wrong and the other not. It's one side looking at the game as something to figure out the META of and then executing it (or for which the META fits their preferred play style) and the other trying to fins a way to make their preferred game style work. I just see a disconnect where one side is discussing how to make melee work like second rate ranged characters and the other discussing ways of making melee work like they think melee should work.

It could be an issue of overall mind sets as well. I've played with those who try to avoid taking any damage in game (as well as those who do the same outside it) and those who see it as an expectation in game as long as it accomplishes something (and those who are the same outside it, think full contact football or hockey players).

[Gremmlynn]

That formula is oversimplified. First, it assumes a certain mob makeup. This can change dramatically if you are facing spider champs, or undead, or drow priestesses. Next, this assumes you even have a caster in your party. I've seen reaper groups with no CC caster where ranged do all the paralyzing. In my mind, it's a lot better than the pre-MOTU days where it was hold monster, wait for melees to beat down, move to next mob, repeat. Now at least, you have some champs that are running around not held making things more interesting, as well as more party flexibility.

To address your main point: if you don't like LGS CC, what's wrong currently with melee utilizing their own forms of CC, like sap and dire charge? If dire charge is so inferior, why aren't we seeing more "buff dire charge" threads? Is everyone taking deific warding instead and not even bothering with it?

Maybe if you could pin down what it is you want your role to be, as a DPS melee, we could arrive at a solution. Is more defense the solution you would lean towards? Or better aggro mechanics?

It's not a matter of not liking LGS CC (not to mention that that is only available at level 28, dire charge 27), but the whole idea that CC is more than a situational option rather than something that is an expectation. That's what I mean by formulaic, that CC should always precede DPS.

This is what I mean by two different conversations. While you are trying to find ways to make the META work for melees, others are saying something other than the META should work (maybe instead of META "most effective tactic available", we should use OETA for "only effective tactic available").

[Pyed-Pyper]

Only in an individual's mind.
In reality, reality is reality.
For example, there is an actual number of dollars the game brings in.

....

Perception can shape reality. Bob thinks a certain social occasion will be boring and tells Mary. Mary tells Tom, Tom tells the office, and so on. Their perception governs their decisions. Only a few people attend and the event falls flat.

[Pyed-Pyper]

My perception of the game is that one-shot did not exist initially or was rare, but became commonplace from various changes over time. That means a natural constriction of game play options.

It seems to me that the suggestions given here and in other recent threads, while well meaning, are misguided in the sense that they are tinkering at the edges and not addressing the core issue. Will tinkering at the edges be anything more than a short-term fix?

[Pyed-Pyper]

People are not supposed to like it. It is DM Kill Mode. It is supposed to kill you. R10 is not the meta. I am not sure why it even matters if people like R10 or not.

[KingNite]

My perception of the game is that one-shot did not exist initially or was rare, but became commonplace from various changes over time. That means a natural constriction of game play options.

It seems to me that the suggestions given here and in other recent threads, while well meaning, are misguided in the sense that they are tinkering at the edges and not addressing the core issue. Will tinkering at the edges be anything more than a short-term fix?

Not really over time, It became suddenly commonplace in high reaper settings with reaper introduction. As suddenly as all players stoped playing it. There was a lot of people at cap before reaper, 1 shot was not commonplace anywhere. Those few places like LEshroud were some people got 1 shoted were far from popular already.

Rolling back would be the only true solution to this mess but since aint't gona happen I guess that's the best peps interested in running end game as it is now can hope for. They can also farm trees and stuff (or wait for the others to farm it) for 5 more years till reaper 10 feels like current r 6 o 7 and then everybody will play r10. Just like it happened with elite. Or they can enjoy r10 as it is playing with themselves because no one else seems interested.

[Gremmlynn]

I personally believe melees only need help in boss' fights, as they are fine in the rest of the quest.

This probably would work for me, as what would help them in boss fights likely would help them play more like what I'm looking for in all fights.

[Yamani]

It started when they introduced champs, people complained about it so they toned them down.

When they changed necro into "legendary" it turned common but at that point we had so many broken builds that we could just brute force anything.

Then they dropped the Legendary raids and finished killing the game completely.

Those supporting the "meta" builds were happy so they could just group up and crush content while others just left because the game turned into bring 3-5 furyshotters and complete anything on top diff.

And we end up with dead servers but Orion of course.

If the game was killed back at legendary, why are you still here?

[Selvera]

It's not a matter of not liking LGS CC (not to mention that that is only available at level 28, dire charge 27)

I'm sorry; but this hurt me a little inside.

[LavidDynch]

Very good initial post by Erky.

Has melee been able to achieve anything better then ranged in the last 5 years?

Devs should take a lesson from other games in how to properly balance a game. All classes gets reviewed every 3 months, clear directions with the intended end product in mind. I weep, when I see this and then think of DDO.
https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/foru...ugust-8-2017-3

In my opinion, this game should stick with the fast paced action style that it used to be and still is at certain points ... The quagmire of high reaper doesn't suit ... but we already know this from the old epics (the first lvl20, where mass-holds, firewall and picks was the META) so why did DDO take up this, obviously and proven failed direction again is a mystery beyond Deleras to me?

[grandeibra]

It became suddenly commonplace in high reaper settings with reaper introduction..

erm
2006 ogres in waterworks at launch
2006-07 queen lailat in preraid and raid would not only oneshot toons but oneshot entire groups with her multi-attacks
various stuff om elite in shroud 2008

all the way to

steroided dragons in thunder peaks
champions
reaper

etc. therer's ALWAYS been oneshots. Players adjust, improve equipment, specify what gear to use vs mobs etc etc.

[KingNite]

It started when they introduced champs, people complained about it so they toned them down.

When they changed necro into "legendary" it turned common but at that point we had so many broken builds that we could just brute force anything.

Well is not the same that some mobs can 1 shot some players sometimes, that every mob 1 shots everyone always. We didn't see something like that ever before reaper . Even in necro 4 upgarded most mobs didn't 1 shot players who were ready for it, you could find the odd champ who would do it sometimes but definetly no commonplace.