Why play a melee character at all?

[nokowi]

So, you very loudly QUIT THE GAME, because the class was BUFFED by making content MORE CHALLENGING?

Thats some straight up 1984 logic right there George. Did the price of flower also get DECREASED from $1.30 a pound to $1.45 a pound?

I already said there is an issue with agro that cause me to leave the game - until it is fixed.

You are the only one I know of on the forums that thinks
1. insta kill
2. damage avoidance

would make the assassin class (based on insta kill and damage avoidance) weaker.

The issue I have is that improper sharing of agro largely prevents play at the front of the party.

I certainly do believe insta kill on high reaper will be more powerful (in a group) than what assassin was doing before reaper (even with improper sharing of agro).


I actually play the game based on whether or not it is fun to play - for me that's at the front of the party, where there is the biggest risk vs reward.

I certainly know how to avoid agro and could do just fine in reaper. I'm guessing I would have among the least deaths because avoiding agro >> miss chance.


I guess I'm just not interested in piking and throwing down firewall crits to the extent that you seem to be.

Playing at the back of the party is the equivalent of piking for me - not interactive enough and little risk vs reward.

[McFlay]

In fact, there is a post in the past two pages where I literally post how buffing with the generic MMO mechanics added to the game was bad for the game. Care to quote and address that? Or are we glossing over it, only to then incorrectly claim that only one thing is ever blamed?

I've yet to see you give any specific examples of nerfs that ended very, very badly...all you do is talk about how much stuff nerfs ruined without giving specifics.

Meanwhile I've pointed out some examples in DDO of past nerfs that worked out for the better in the long run, and myself as well as other people pointed out examples of other games that nerf things that are far more balanced than DDO.

Chai: Melee was nerfed, so are underpowered. Would be more viable in this era if they werent nerfed.

Lol back to this lie again...eh? What melee exclusive things got nerfed?

[Chai]

Since you took someone else's comment, and applied it to me, I'll assume you need to go do some reading.

I specifically said a nerf (or buff) can be good or bad. I'll repeat it for you again.

Both are needed. I'll repeat that again.

I said the link between the existence of nerfs and the game being better or worse is incorrect. I'm 100% sure some nerfs actually improved the game.



Yes, thanks for the misquote - that was someone else's statement.

Melee assassin was buffed by making content more challenging. Everybody but you seems to understand the power of insta kill and damage avoidance in reaper.

You can go back to the rogue pass where I made this exact statement, that all rogues (melee assassin) needed was a slower pace of content where players are interacting with mobs.

Nice try, but like the other guy, you need to stop this poorly attempted word mincing trickery on a forum. It works sometimes in a verbal discussion when you can shut someones thought process down by riling them up emotionally to the point where they forget what they were going to point out, but on a written forum, we can go back and cite you for having said it.

[KingNite]

I'll give you some examples...

Healing amp and spell power used to multiply for each additional buff you added. The devs changed it to simply add each value instead. If you were on the top end of healing amp or spell power at the time it was a nerf, but in the long run this set us up so we could introduce gear with bigger values and new bonus types to these stats from new sources without a tiny increase in value multiplying into a large increase.

AC nerf. Back in the day AC was an all or nothing stat...you could play a very specific build with ridiculous AC and get hit 5% of the time, or you might as well just forget it as 10 AC was effectively the same in most content as 50 AC...which was useless. When they changed the armor system if you were one of the insane AC builds you got nerfed, but for the majority of builds going forward it gave you more defensive stats that would actually matter.

See how that works? When done properly, nerfs create balance.

Those were basicaly pointless nerfs. So they reduce the current heal ampli by changing how it works to give us the opportunity to farm for more but yet be at the same value we were pre nerf, how kind and appealing... what sense makes that? what it achieves? You end up with insane heal ampli all the same but you have to grind for it twice! lol, makes sense from bussines point of view from a player POV not so much. If you are still not sure it was pointless just see how they "needed" to nerf it again with reaper.

Same for Ac what it achieved at the end? How usefull is AC now outside of certain tanky builds? As much as haggle? It worked so well than now we have PRR insted of AC. Pointless changes most of the times in the long run only usefull to annoy people who have to redo build and/or gear.

[nokowi]

Nice try, but like the other guy, you need to stop this poorly attempted word mincing trickery on a forum. It works sometimes in a verbal discussion when you can shut someones thought process down by riling them up emotionally to the point where they forget what they were going to point out, but on a written forum, we can go back and cite you for having said it.

You supposedly play assassin, so you should be able to see how insta-kill and avoidance builds are quite powerful, and how assassin can do so.

There should be no "verbal trickery" that causes your emotions to be so harmed that you don't know how an assassin works.


Please go ahead and go back and site me. You can PM me and I will post my own words, with additional context of course. We know how that has worked for you in the past when your citation and conclusion was yet another misunderstanding on your end, probably due to my verbal trickery.

I of course talked about how agro sharing ruined a melee assassin play style (requiring the most skill and different choices) based on playing at the front of the party --> completely consistent with what I have said here.


That is what you would do in a discussion - but of course you would have to be able to post specifics AND respond to other people's specifics as well.

An inability to provide specifics and respond to them is what prevents any meaningful discussion.

Alluding to some secret statement you believe you have is as meaningless as pretending you have evidence about nerfs, without being able to provide AND defend any specifics. Note the AND.

What if I also have secret statements and evidence that makes me right. No doubt you would then have to declare me correct, right?

[nokowi]

Nice try, but like the other guy, you need to stop this poorly attempted word mincing trickery on a forum. It works sometimes in a verbal discussion when you can shut someones thought process down by riling them up emotionally to the point where they forget what they were going to point out, but on a written forum, we can go back and cite you for having said it.

Here is what I actually said on page 19:

Paragraph 2. Melee Assassin are better off because devs implemented reapers and minimum kill count to challenge stealth as a solo win tactic. There are now more important build and play choices for someone wanting to succeed while using stealth. reaper is the perfect place for melee assassins, as play has slowed down to a level that movement and insta kill can really shine. They are worse off because of a bug in how agro is shared --> one that wont be addressed until after Ravenloft.

Here is your complete misrepresentation on page 20:

More of the same. Quoted for citation. No one needs Nokowi to lecture them on how to post, yet here he is 14 months after quitting the game still trying to play post nanny on the forums. He defends nerfs, yet quit the game because of a nerf. In the context of this thread, thats all anyone needs to know.

Nokowi's logic simply doesnt follow.
Thread: Why play melee?
Chai: Melee was nerfed, so are underpowered. Would be more viable in this era if they werent nerfed.
Nokowi: My melee was proxy nerfed so I very loudly quit the game over it 14 months ago. I still defend nerfs hand over fist to this day though, because thats how balance formed.

Are you even remotely serious right now?

Hows that "nerfs create balance" myth working out for you? They proxy nerfed your desire to even play DDO.

Actions speak louder than words.

The important think is why a particular change is good or bad, and that requires context.

Some of those that believe all nerfs are bad seem to be incapable of context, because any nerf leads them to that emotional state where they are unable to think or process information - no trickery is required from those actually interested in a pro/con discussion of any particular change (nerf or buff).


Here is my response for which you have no defense/reply other than "verbal trickery".

I already said there is an issue with agro that cause me to leave the game - until it is fixed.

You are the only one I know of on the forums that thinks
1. insta kill
2. damage avoidance

would make the assassin class (based on insta kill and damage avoidance) weaker.

The issue I have is that improper sharing of agro largely prevents play at the front of the party.

I certainly do believe insta kill on high reaper will be more powerful (in a group) than what assassin was doing before reaper (even with improper sharing of agro).


I actually play the game based on whether or not it is fun to play - for me that's at the front of the party, where there is the biggest risk vs reward.

I certainly know how to avoid agro and could do just fine in reaper. I'm guessing I would have among the least deaths because avoiding agro >> miss chance.


I guess I'm just not interested in piking and throwing down firewall crits to the extent that you seem to be.

Playing at the back of the party is the equivalent of piking for me - not interactive enough and little risk vs reward.

So we see that a discussion was needed for you to understand the specifics of why I left, and why assassin can still be more powerful, but yet less fun to play.

A second example of this would be the people that recommended assassins be able to insta-kill every four seconds during the rogue pass. This would have removed any reason to ever leave stealth in combat, and it would limit competing play choices. I believe I was the only one that argued to keep the 15 second timer, and to keep slower movement (creating additional play choices to leave stealth).

Changes can certainly increase power and also make the game less fun to play. I would have certainly left if they implemented the version of assassin with a 4 second timer.

Shiv originally provided sneak attack for 4 seconds at level one. I argued to have this ability scale upwards to 4 seconds, (less power), so that players learn how to obtain sneak attack through play at lower levels. The less powerful implementation results in more skilled play and hopefully player learning at lower levels. Devs implemented my suggestion.

Your equating "Nokowi left" to "nerf" is incorrect, as it is more complex than that, and the negative change is probably not intentional based on dev comments. There were several changes, many of them good, and only one bad. I would call an unintentional side effect a bug, rather than a nerf in the context of a design discussion.

[Chai]

Here is what I actually said on page 19:



Here is your complete misrepresentation on page 20:

Seriously, stop mincing words and just back out now. People can simply click on what I quoted and see zero misrepresentation whatsoever.

I shouldnt be surprised, as this is every thread with you. It devolves away from the topic you lost the debate on, and into some word lawyering BS sculpting and chronic last wording.

If you spent as much effort playing the game as you do arguing with the same 4 people on the forums, youd have zero issues playing that assassin in current content. Who quits a game and stalks the same 4 people on that game's forum for 14 months after quitting?

If you continue with this, I will simply continue pointing out the sheer number of waffling on your position when it suits you. Want an example? See below.

Melee Assassin are better off because devs implemented reapers and minimum kill count to challenge stealth as a solo win tactic. There are now more important build and play choices for someone wanting to succeed while using stealth. reaper is the perfect place for melee assassins, as play has slowed down to a level that movement and insta kill can really shine. They are worse off because of a bug in how agro is shared --> one that wont be addressed until after Ravenloft.

How does one say this, after saying...

I would have been playing (likely for the last 7 months) if they had not broken melee assassin beyond playability.

In one post you claim reaper made it better for assassins. In another you claim to have quit due to assassins being broken beyond playability, 7 months ago. 7 months before that post (post date of 07-27-2017) puts you right during the time frame when reaper was implemented (U34, on February 2nd, 2017).

Hook, line, sinker.

You see, this person is not concerned with the game any longer and hasn't been for quite some time. They are concerned with stalking and deriding the same 4 people he has disagreed with for years at a time on a video game forum, to the point where catching him in this level of a contradiction will not phase him in the slightest. This happens on this forum quite a bit where people attempt to lawyer their way out of this type of contradiction, even after being caught red handed, all the while fancying themselves an armchair BS artist. But every once in a while you run into a real bona fide BS sculptor. This is like some straight out the league, right down the checklist first ballot hall of fame material.

[nokowi]

Seriously, stop mincing words and just back out now. People can simply click on what I quoted and see zero misrepresentation whatsoever.

I shouldnt be surprised, as this is every thread with you. It devolves away from the topic you lost the debate on, and into some word lawyering BS sculpting and chronic last wording.

If you spent as much effort playing the game as you do arguing with the same 4 people on the forums, youd have zero issues playing that assassin in current content. Who quits a game and stalks the same 4 people on that game's forum for 14 months after quitting?

If you continue with this, I will simply continue pointing out the sheer number of waffling on your position when it suits you. Want an example? See below.



How does one say this, after saying...



In one post you claim reaper made it better for assassins. In another you claim to have quit due to assassins being broken beyond playability, 7 months ago. 7 months before that post (post date of 07-27-2017) puts you right during the time frame when reaper was implemented (U34, on February 2nd, 2017).

Hook, line, sinker.

I'm referring to the style of play of playing at the front of the party in this post. It's called context.

I have said on many occasions that you can perform just fine in reaper by never getting agro, but that it is far less skilled play.

I backed that statement up here, as well.

Anyone who understands assassin, and is capable of reading comprehension, will understand this.


Please find something better to do than misrepresent me.

You see, this person is not concerned with the game any longer and hasn't been for quite some time. They are concerned with stalking and deriding the same 4 people he has disagreed with for years at a time on a video game forum, to the point where catching him in this level of a contradiction will not phase him in the slightest. This happens on this forum quite a bit where people attempt to lawyer their way out of this type of contradiction, even after being caught red handed, all the while fancying themselves an armchair BS artist. But every once in a while you run into a real bona fide BS sculptor. This is like some straight out the league, right down the checklist first ballot hall of fame material.

Stop trying to win something, You're replying to me, and you are wrong.

The fact that I put up with you shows how dedicated I am to getting assassin fixed.

Believe me, I'd much rather be playing the game and never responding to you ever again.

[Chai]

The fact that I put up with you shows how dedicated I am to getting assassin fixed.

Constantly trying to last word me and three others isnt going to get assassin fixed.

Believe me, I'd much rather be playing the game and never responding to you ever again.

Please, mother of god, make it so. That would be a win win.

[Gremmlynn]

Other MMOs do this in a single or a few updates, so I don't see why not.

Other MMOs are designed to be MMOs. Not MMO versions of wildly unbalanced PnP games (even if one disagrees 3.5e is "wildly unbalanced", what may be balanced in a turn based PnP RPG setting could very well not be in a real time action game).

It makes things a lot easier to keep under control when things are designed to be under control in the first place.

[McFlay]

Those were basicaly pointless nerfs. So they reduce the current heal ampli by changing how it works to give us the opportunity to farm for more but yet be at the same value we were pre nerf, how kind and appealing... what sense makes that? what it achieves? You end up with insane heal ampli all the same but you have to grind for it twice!

No way...do you even understand how amp worked prior to the nerf? The most amp oriented build you could conjure up right now still wouldn't hit amp values people getting prior to the nerf. If you had average healing amp you didn't see much change with the nerf but the people with amp oriented builds definitely saw it.

You literally had people with 700%+ healing amp...nobody is hitting those numbers anymore, even after several years of power creep post amp changes.

lol, makes sense from bussines point of view from a player POV not so much. If you are still not sure it was pointless just see how they "needed" to nerf it again with reaper.

They didn't nerf healing amp in reaper.

Same for Ac what it achieved at the end? How usefull is AC now outside of certain tanky builds? As much as haggle? It worked so well than now we have PRR insted of AC. Pointless changes most of the times in the long run only usefull to annoy people who have to redo build and/or gear.

Do you even know how AC used to work, because you obviously didn't know how amp worked before or you wouldn't have thought high amp builds ended up right back where they started. Mobs would roll a 1d20 + their to hit bonus. Let's say a mob rolled an 80+1d20 and you had a moderate investment in AC and had 60 AC, which was pretty good for most classes back then...you get hit 95% on the time...mob would only miss on a 1. Let's say you have 10 AC...your AC would be just as effective in that example as the guy with 60. Meanwhile if you had 100 AC the mob would only hit you 5% of the time.

So what did it accomplish? It lessened the band devs had to balance damage around and gave us a system where investing in defenses was always good because things like dodge and prr don't fall off the bottom of the scale like AC used to. Like I said earlier, they could have tightened the band...but in the end it would have resulted in the same thing if nobody hit 95% on the top of the band and even a modest investment in AC was enough to put you in a useful range on a 1d20 scale. How do you balance damage when mobs miss person A 95% of the time and hit person B 95% of the time. Person A ends up a god, or person B ends up getting killed stupidly easily. It would have been impossible to balance around that...it would be like, oh, I don't know, maybe ramping up mob damage to ridiculous levels so they kill people in 2-3 hits and then wondering why we keep seeing threads about melee suck ranged OP because ranged just avoid damage via kiting while melees have to put themselves at risk to get close enough to deal damage.

[Pyed-Pyper]

Alternatively, if the Devs simply did their work based on what's best for the game and ignored the filibusters, the game as whole may well be in a better place.

There certainly are noisy folks on the forums who ask for/demand this-or-that; but it is the Devs who decide what/which feedback to act on, and it is the Devs who decide how to act. The most culpability various members of the community have in the matter of nerfs & buffs is that various members of the community have made suggestions (demands/requests/whatever). It is not any members of the community who decide what if anything to change nor how to impliment that change - the responsibility for those decisions, how they're implimented, and the consequences (both good & bad) rests solely on the Dev's shoulders.

One might argue that (they think) they are doing that now. Which is why I've wanted some sort of essay from SSG on what they think makes DDO great. I know that won't happen but it would be interesting to match their stated vision with what is.


As for your post, I agree. Which makes me wonder how Chai reaches this conclusion ...

... [PermaBanned] ...is incorrect.

Players don't design content. SSG does.
Players don't write code. SSG does.
Players don't upload patches. SSG does.

[nokowi]

Constantly trying to last word me and three others isnt going to get assassin fixed.

Funny, as I am usually the first to leave a thread, despite your complaints.

I was here to discuss melee, but you decided to refuse to talk about the actual point of the thread and instead decided to talk about me.

Ironic, given your complaints.

Please, mother of god, make it so. That would be a win win.

Agreed.

[Chai]

Funny, as I am usually the first to leave a thread, despite your complaints.

No you certainly are not. We already did the last word test. Four times in fact You failed. 0-4

I was here to discuss melee, but you decided to refuse to talk about the actual point of the thread and instead decided to talk about me.

Ironic, given your complaints.

Your posts arent talking about melee. They are nothing more than rules lawyering how others can and cannot post. Again, this BS sculpting tactic doesnt work in a forum where the posts can be reviewed and cited at will.

Agreed.

Then prove it. Youre already caught in the contradiction of saying you would be playing if assassins werent broken and unplayable right when reaper was implemented, yet today you state reaper made it better for assassins. Yet, here you are, not playing for over a year, but havent missed a beat in stalking the same 4 people over that time .

Again actions speak louder than words.

[Chai]

Players don't design content. SSG does.
Players don't write code. SSG does.
Players don't upload patches. SSG does.

Players got what they asked for.

And continued to complain about it using BS excuses such as the often repeated "was a good idea but poor implementation"

You can literally make a drinking game out of the quantity of times, and the numerals on the posts, of when and how often that phrase will be posted after the players got exactly what they asked for, then do a complete 180 on it and complain some more.

Nerf melee
Nerf melee harder
Nerf melee again
Nerf a different melee
Melee being OP ruins my fun.
Then....
Melee sucks to play in this META. (mmm waffles are good)
Then...
One person comes along and states that melee nerfs made them less viable (might as well have said water is wet)
...All hell breaks lose as the denial piles up and players got caught in their own BS contradiction, neck deep with their mouths wide open.

[Gremmlynn]

And destroying the game selling junk is pretty much stupid, keeping a good game would keep more people playing and paying.

That assumes they had a good enough game to make as much money that way to start with.

History doesn't support this.

[Gremmlynn]

Just because they accomplished something with incompetence doesnt mean they have a plan.

Just because their goals may not be the same as yours, doesn't mean they don't have a plan either.

[Gremmlynn]

No way...do you even understand how amp worked prior to the nerf? The most amp oriented build you could conjure up right now still wouldn't hit amp values people getting prior to the nerf. If you had average healing amp you didn't see much change with the nerf but the people with amp oriented builds definitely saw it.

You literally had people with 700%+ healing amp...nobody is hitting those numbers anymore, even after several years of power creep post amp changes.



They didn't nerf healing amp in reaper.



Do you even know how AC used to work, because you obviously didn't know how amp worked before or you wouldn't have thought high amp builds ended up right back where they started. Mobs would roll a 1d20 + their to hit bonus. Let's say a mob rolled an 80+1d20 and you had a moderate investment in AC and had 60 AC, which was pretty good for most classes back then...you get hit 95% on the time...mob would only miss on a 1. Let's say you have 10 AC...your AC would be just as effective in that example as the guy with 60. Meanwhile if you had 100 AC the mob would only hit you 5% of the time.

So what did it accomplish? It lessened the band devs had to balance damage around and gave us a system where investing in defenses was always good because things like dodge and prr don't fall off the bottom of the scale like AC used to. Like I said earlier, they could have tightened the band...but in the end it would have resulted in the same thing if nobody hit 95% on the top of the band and even a modest investment in AC was enough to put you in a useful range on a 1d20 scale. How do you balance damage when mobs miss person A 95% of the time and hit person B 95% of the time. Person A ends up a god, or person B ends up getting killed stupidly easily. It would have been impossible to balance around that...it would be like, oh, I don't know, maybe ramping up mob damage to ridiculous levels so they kill people in 2-3 hits and then wondering why we keep seeing threads about melee suck ranged OP because ranged just avoid damage via kiting while melees have to put themselves at risk to get close enough to deal damage.

Both good changes IMO.

[Pyed-Pyper]

Players got what they asked for. .....

I certainly didn't. Judging by server pops, pretty sure I'm not the only one. So, what's the secret? Magical incantation? Proper variation on the pre-TR shamanic dance? Stevedores toting samolian-stuffed trunks to back-alley servers? Membership in the right country club?

Players may ask for things, or they may not. It doesn't matter. Only one party has the power to decide how DDO works, and that is SSG, not the players.

[Chai]

I certainly didn't. Judging by server pops, pretty sure I'm not the only one. So, what's the secret? Magical incantation? Proper variation on the pre-TR shamanic dance? Stevedores toting samolian-stuffed trunks to back-alley servers? Membership in the right country club?

The secret is we'd need to know who the original account behind the sock is, to know what you did and did not ask for in the past.

Players may ask for things, or they may not. It doesn't matter. Only one party has the power to decide how DDO works, and that is SSG, not the players.

And they gave the players exactly what they asked for. Youre attempting some chicken -vs- egg shenanigans in order to absolve from blame the loudest faction in the community for repeatedly demanding something over 24 months (melee nerfs) and then when they got exactly what they asked for (less effective melee) now turn around and demand melee be more viable. No one wants to buy your chicken or your egg however, because anyone who is objectively observing this situation learned long ago that the direction of the game is largely based on player feedback.

Its like you keep sticking your hand in the fire, and then blame only the fire for all of the burns, claiming it doesnt matter how many times you stuck your hand in the fire, because only the fire can burn. Since you cant burn and only fire can burn, these burned to a crisp hands must therefore be the fire's fault. Never mind the fact that you could choose not to keep sticking them into the fire.

Meanwhile the chicken was hit by a toyota corolla while crossing the road and the egg was used to create the many waffles you see in this thread. The people who left are mostly quiet folks who never asked for any of this on the forums, who were victimized by it all anyhow, and the way the game changed actually ruined alot of people's fun who did not ask for any of the changes, which were all implemented in order to accommodate those screaming for nerfs because the thing that needs to be nerfed ruins their fun.

Just like they played the game and quietly never asked for any of the changes, so too they quietly leave when the changes affect them negatively enough. All because some dude on a game forum couldnt stand that they could hop on a Paladin/Barbarian/Bard/Warlock and complete the same content while having an easier time doing so, in a PVE game.