IS TRing broken and should we be giving a new way to avoid TRing and enjoy endgame?

[scipiojedi]

I love the poll's wording, but you probably should have thrown in that people who like TR hate puppies and ice cream.

Half of this is true.

[Renvar]

Yes it adds NECESSARY OPINION and look, people who understand it are voting on THAT opinion.

It must frustrate you that you can not isolate me as some freak and then ask for a lock down on thread to gag the truth!

Here it is, in your face. LOOK AT IT!

There is a percentage of players fed up with TRing and who have been asking for endgame for a long time now.

But do go on pretending they are being "unnecessary" about it and see how far that works..

We will continue to speak out loud WE HATE TRing and WANT ENDGAME.

You will never EVER hear the end of it either.

Doesn't matter if this thread gets locked or not. More will appear from OTHER people which is already happening right now if you look about.

I am just far more clear and vocal then most, and that threatens your TR bubble fantasy that everyone should appreciate and like TRing.


TRing sucks and the people who voted they hate it obviously agree.

I won't resort to politically correct game talk... such a thing does not exist. I won't tip toe around the truth so you can more easily ignore it. I won't whisper and gasp in the night as my favorite game is turned into a TR nightmare of yawns.


I will fight for ENDGAME and for ENDGAME club!

And you can not stop me!

Lol. You even quoted me saying "This is fine" with regard to your opinion.

Here it is again:

I think you are blinded by your obvious disdain for TRing and the lack of end game. Which is fine. There are a lot of people who feel the way you do and who want a better end game. I do, too. But I also enjoy TRing. I like both. That isn't an option in your poll either. I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. I think SSG has created a lot of compelling reasons to TR. I'd like to see SSG develop a lot of compelling reasons to stay at cap now.

Your opinion is perfectly valid. I even agree with you, in part. I'm not trying to shout you down or stop you.

You just made a poll that was heavily slanted towards your point of view. It's fine. But it means your poll has no value because you aren't capturing the people who disagree. Not that forum polls, even when well made, have that much value because of the small sample size, mostly from one segment of the game population. Let alone the duplicate voting.

[Riddle_of_Steel]

Quoted for absolute truth. If the option the quoted poster had given (I like TRing, I don't feel forced, it's fine) had been in there, I'd have voted for that. Not going to vote in OP's poll that puts words in my mouth.

I like TRing. I don't feel forced. I enjoy it. The process is fine. (And if there are bugs with it, fix them already, but that's not going to stop me from doing another TR.)

+1 For me as well

Also +1 Rep to everyone pointing out the most obvious Response Bias survey I have seen in .... well ever really.

Seriously.

WORST
SURVEY
EVER
.

[Wonedream]

Quoted for absolute truth. If the option the quoted poster had given (I like TRing, I don't feel forced, it's fine) had been in there, I'd have voted for that. Not going to vote in OP's poll that puts words in my mouth.

I like TRing. I don't feel forced. I enjoy it. The process is fine. (And if there are bugs with it, fix them already, but that's not going to stop me from doing another TR.)

Why not vote the second option then? The one that says "everyone should TR, they just need to fix the bugs"

Because it does not say you are being forced, but that in the opinion of those voting that way, it is just something you have to do if you want your toon top notch. Isn't it after all?

As to the bugs, who the heck wants to lost stuff while TRing, are you saying no one should mind that? Try telling that to those who lost their stuff!

So, adding (they should fix the bugs) is just plain obvious common sense.

I gave people who feel the same way I do a chance to vote with the words that describe their feeling, impression, thoughts. You might not like that others don't like TR and now have a poll to express this, but here it is.

I think it is the biased reaction of those who feel threatened that I might expose the TR system as a system that is not enjoyed by everyone and universally accepted that is causing them to project their concerns by trying to derail this thread as some sort of biased.


If you don't like the words the first choice "puts in your mouth" don't vote that choice. Others apparently feel that first choice is merely speaking on their behalf, and this concerns some obviously that this might be seen.

Those who voted the first choice do not feel like I "put words in their mouth" they feel like those words I used actually do describe how they feel, so instead what those words represent is an attempt to correctly assess where their minds already are at, and this is easy because my mind is already there too, so we merely share opinion which is separate from choice 2, which is TR is ok, leave it along, fix the bugs - or do you want more bugs when you TR?

Try some might, they can't change the real underlining nature of this poll or that the words accurately describe the feelings of those who have chosen to vote for.

[Wonedream]

+1 For me as well

Also +1 Rep to everyone pointing out the most obvious Response Bias survey I have seen in .... well ever really.

Seriously.

WORST
SURVEY
EVER
.

A team of TR worshippers isn't going to stop this. I wager you voted for TRing but won't admit it :P

Anyways, you can ridicule the poll all you want, but for those who voted, they have added support to their views which you are now pretending do not matter.

WORST
OBSERVATION
EVER
.

I will stand for the endgame club.

You can stand for the TR club.

But we WILL be heard, whether you think it is the worst idea ever, the worst thread ever, the worst poll ever, or worst whatever ever... like it or not, there is a large large community of players sick and tired of TR system and who keep asking over and over for Endgame system!

And nothing you say, no magic words, no wave of the hand, will suddenly make everyone align with your views and agree with you.

Your failure to recognize and address that we exist and likely in larger numbers then you, (seeing how so many left game that is endless TR already and how game was 10 times bigger before TR system got ridiculous) is not going to change anything other then disable your ability to silence our voice. We won't go away conveniently either.

I will keep batting and swinging for Endgame solution. I hope SSG gets a homerun and everyone ends up happy, that is, both the TR club and the endgame club.

And I will seriously bet you lots of money that if SSG provides a good endgame solution, a majority of players will be there having more fun then they are in TR land where lfms are rare, it is harder to find groups, and the repetition gets both more exhausting and boring for most people, while there are those who enjoy it.


I say TR system is broken and we should be giving a new way to avoid TRing and enjoy endgame lvl 30 capped no need to TR and still getting better style!

Label that!

[Drekisen]

I couldn't vote because none of the choices represented my view.

The game has a multitude of choices.

What is killing the game if anything is the hype that TR'ing is needed for someone to feel worthy to play this game.

It isn't by any means, in fact you could probably do pretty well with a 28pt build if you had some real dedication to becoming good at the game instead of just trying to overpower it.

I get that some people do multiple TR's because it is fun for them, nothing wrong with that.....but no newcomers whatsoever should get wrapped up in the "power creep", this game is not even PvP.

All the options are already there, it is called following your own path.

Play the game, don't let it play you.

[Wonedream]

I couldn't vote because none of the choices represented my view.

The game has a multitude of choices.

What is killing the game if anything is the hype that TR'ing is needed for someone to feel worthy to play this game.

It isn't by any means, in fact you could probably do pretty well with a 28pt build if you had some real dedication to becoming good at the game instead of just trying to overpower it.

I get that some people do multiple TR's because it is fun for them, nothing wrong with that.....but no newcomers whatsoever should get wrapped up in the "power creep", this game is not even PvP.

All the options are already there, it is called following your own path.

Play the game, don't let it play you.

Excellent reply!

Thank you!

Also, you stated yourself elegantly there, and with the underlined statement validated those who did vote because the choice they voted on represented their views.

Basically this thread (whether you voted or posted and didn't vote for reason underlined) represents different views, which are becoming more evident as can be seen.

[TDarkchylde]

Why not vote the second option then? The one that says "everyone should TR, they just need to fix the bugs"

Because. Not. Everyone. Should.

Your stated poll option:

No, everyone should have to TR, they just need to fix the bugs (if that ever happens)

No, everyone should have to TR

Your poll option presupposes that if I enjoy TRing, then I should also be of the opinion that everyone should have to. I'm not. Not everyone should, and we live in a game right now where everyone doesn't have to in order to enjoy the game or have a viable character that can play a role in most content. Honest question: can you not see the flaw there?

You'd have averted 99% of the drama and rage if you'd simply done options like these that stuck to the point:

1. I like TRing
2. I don't like TRing
3. I would TR if they'd fix the lost items bug
4. Other/undecided

[Wonedream]

...

I like TRing. I don't feel forced. I enjoy it. The process is fine. (And if there are bugs with it, fix them already, but that's not going to stop me from doing another TR.)

So basically you just voted the second option, which I provided. It says the TRing is fine, players should have to do it if they want PLs, and fix bugs.

Nothing wrong with that. It is a poll, with that option, the one that matches your comment here. Take a look!

[Wonedream]

Because. Not. Everyone. Should.

Your stated poll option:



No, everyone should have to TR

Your poll option presupposes that if I enjoy TRing, then I should also be of the opinion that everyone should have to. I'm not. Not everyone should, and we live in a game right now where everyone doesn't have to in order to enjoy the game or have a viable character that can play a role in most content. Honest question: can you not see the flaw there?

You'd have averted 99% of the drama and rage if you'd simply done options like these that stuck to the point:

1. I like TRing
2. I don't like TRing
3. I would TR if they'd fix the lost items bug
4. Other/undecided

lol oh my the rage... really if this is enraging you that is ridiculous.

If is a forum where we can express ourselves. I am not attacking anyone, there is no reason for upset. If anything, by stating words like rage you are dramatizing this thread for yourself, but not for me. It is simply a poll and others have chosen to vote so it matches their views. It doesn't have to be "good enough" for you. lol

That is really silly to think you can rate a poll to try and silence the votes of those who found these words fitting.

I am sitting here calmly, relaxed, and just reading up and responding peacefully.

I am sure those numbers would vary if we got every player to vote, but not all players visit the forums, most don't that often from what I've seen.

The ones that speak up on circumstances about the game may or may not represent percentages of player base.

On an issue like this, clearly they would.

You cast your vote by responding if not to vote, you nonetheless stated your support for TR system, equating to option two that I provided.

To get overly technical about it won't change that people cast votes because it represents their outlook.

You are denying them their voice by saying "this poll isn't good enough" if they are so easily influenced.

Probably not though.


Now setting aside ideas about people's votes being "good enough" to validate this for everyone...

And speaking to anyone at this point...

What does this information in the poll say? It is there, it now exists, and it represents OTHER players opinions. The question remains...

[Lord_Lambent]

And nothing you say, no magic words, no wave of the hand, will suddenly make everyone align with your views and agree with you.

Heh.

[Wonedream]

Heh.

Basically, this is being illustrated that people have various opinions about TRing and that we can sort this down to those who do not like it, thus voted that way, and those who are fine with it as it is.

It can't be invalidated as it shows statistics already that are valid. They exist because people other then me made them exist. To say they are not relevant is to ignore these people and how they voted.

The purpose of the poll is to show there are differences and to what extent they vary on the matter. It is not to invalidate one or the other, but to show things how they are, not how we prefer to see them.

I am looking at this objectively, looking at the numbers, and what they say. These will not change regardless of what anyone says about them, they will either remain where they are or they will increase and change percentages.

No one is being forced to vote. I am fine either way. Thanks!

[Lord_Lambent]

Basically, this is being illustrated that people have various opinions about TRing and that we can sort this down to those who do not like it, thus voted that way, and those who are fine with it as it is.

It can't be invalidated as it shows statistics already that are valid. They exist because people other then me made them exist. To say they are not relevant is to ignore these people and how they voted.

The purpose of the poll is to show there are differences and to what extent they vary on the matter. It is not to invalidate one or the other, but to show things how they are, not how we prefer to see them.

I am looking at this objectively, looking at the numbers, and what they say. These will not change regardless of what anyone says about them, they will either remain where they are or they will increase and change percentages.

No one is being forced to vote. I am fine either way. Thanks!

The "statistics" that are being shown won't be accurate, because as others have said, you allowed your bias to seep into the wording of the poll options. If it was a simple "Do you like TRing? Yes/No/Dunno" and you asked for details in posts, then perhaps you could get more accurate results. As it is, people are not voting because the options don't match up to their opinions...only yours. I'm not going to vote because I don't agree that everyone should TR, and I'm not going to vote for the neutral option that says I "don't know enough." I've been playing this game for a good, long while and know quite a bit, thank you.

And before you accuse me, as you did others, of being part of some secret cabal of "TR worshipers," or of trying to silence your idea of the truth, I can assure you that I just find your hyperbole distasteful.

[Wonedream]

The "statistics" that are being shown won't be accurate, because as others have said, you allowed your bias to seep into the wording of the poll options. If it was a simple "Do you like TRing? Yes/No/Dunno" and you asked for details in posts, then perhaps you could get more accurate results. As it is, people are not voting because the options don't match up to their opinions...only yours. I'm not going to vote because I don't agree that everyone should TR, and I'm not going to vote for the neutral option that says I "don't know enough." I've been playing this game for a good, long while and know quite a bit, thank you.

And before you accuse me, as you did others, of being part of some secret cabal of "TR worshipers," or of trying to silence your idea of the truth, I can assure you that I just find your hyperbole distasteful.

Yes, I am not happy forced to TR, repeat 150 times, risk bugs, and TRing is a nightmare! 8 --- 33.33%

No, everyone should have to TR, they just need to fix the bugs (if that ever happens) 14 ---- 58.33%

I don't know enough to answer, I am new or undecided. 2 --- 8.33%


14 people voted for option 2 so far. 8 for option 1. You have stated your opinion, and either you did vote or did not. It does not matter, the numbers remain.

And I disagree with your opinion.

[GeoffWatson]

Yes, I am not happy forced to TR, repeat 150 times, risk bugs, and TRing is a nightmare! 8 --- 33.33%

No, everyone should have to TR, they just need to fix the bugs (if that ever happens) 14 ---- 58.33%

I don't know enough to answer, I am new or undecided. 2 --- 8.33%


14 people voted for option 2 so far. 8 for option 1. You have stated your opinion, and either you did vote or did not. It does not matter, the numbers remain.

And I disagree with your opinion.

The numbers are nearly meaningless. You have 8 people who agree with you. Not 33% of the DDO population as you seem to imply, just 8.

A poll with neutrally phrased options might work better, but most online polls are useless as the respondents are self-selecting.

[Eryhn]

you have mixed in your poll 2 seperate issues:

a) recently steep increase in PL grind with iconics and racials and if one likes this or not.

b) the risk of losing items/tomes/destinies etc during a ER/ITR/RTR/HTR


while obviously the two are connected, as in,

the more often people use the TR system the more important it is that it works safely, or, as in,

if years of game effort are lost due to one bug it is unacceptable to treat this as a "rare occurence" or not fully reimburse losses


your choice of questions does not let me answer on those points seperately.
so the poll is useless, sry.

i.e. i feel the TR grind is not exactly an inspired, creative system of keeping people in the game - but - players can embrace or resent this as they like. on the other hand, the whole bug thing is nothing to do with player choices and their way of handling it so far is just pathetic eyesore and oh hell yeah they should fix it asap and change their communication policy and properly and swiftly help people affected. your poll cannot express that opinion.

[Wonedream]

you have mixed in your poll 2 seperate issues:

a) recently steep increase in PL grind with iconics and racials and if one likes this or not.

b) the risk of losing items/tomes/destinies etc during a ER/ITR/RTR/HTR


while obviously the two are connected, as in,

the more often people use the TR system the more important it is that it works safely, or, as in,

if years of game effort are lost due to one bug it is unacceptable to treat this as a "rare occurence" or not fully reimburse losses


your choice of questions does not let me answer on those points seperately.
so the poll is useless, sry.

i.e. i feel the TR grind is not exactly an inspired, creative system of keeping people in the game - but - players can embrace or resent this as they like. on the other hand, the whole bug thing is nothing to do with player choices and their way of handling it so far is just pathetic eyesore and oh hell yeah they should fix it asap and change their communication policy and properly and swiftly help people affected. your poll cannot express that opinion.

Actually the options are:

A) I don't like TRing.. I used the word HATE in capitals, so that sorta makes it clear. If you don't hate it, don't vote this. Real easy.

it was not anything to do with this...

a) recently steep increase in PL grind with iconics and racials and if one likes this or not.

It simply asks if it is hated and is a nightmare. You do NOT have to add your weight to it, but 9 people have, and in consideration of that, you should be aware of it.

and option B was:

B) TR system is fine, everyone should have to do it (if they want PL max out basically, I suppose I could have added this to further clarify, but this is an obvious position held by 14 people or more... something they added weight to and in consideration of that, you should be aware of it.

it was not

b) the risk of losing items/tomes/destinies etc during a ER/ITR/RTR/HTR

but included this as an obvious problem that has other players posting thread complaints and should be fixed. I figure if you support TR and like it, you probably want it to work right? Or do you like TRing, and want it to stay bugged? o.O

C) is new or don't know


It is an easy poll, and no one is forced to vote, but the votes speak on their own. They are statements that are getting supported and casting voice.

If you don't like the poll, here is an idea... start your own!

It isn't that hard!

I'll make sure to participate and won't attempt to dismiss it or those involved in it.

This poll is how I want it, not how you want it. So make one how you want it and hopefully we gain a better understanding of where people's heads are at, which is the point of this poll, and the reason 9 voted they HATE TR system and think it is a nightmare, while 14 voted it is good, just fixed the bugs, and for myself this might not be the perfect method of getting a clearer picture, but it is helping me to see it better nonetheless.

And since you took time to review the topic, it obviously concerned you enough to click the poll and furthermore make statement within it. Thank you for your participation. I apologize if we do not agree on what makes a good poll, but you are certainly welcome to make your own as I previously suggested.
Enjoy DDO!

[Wonedream]

you have mixed in your poll 2 seperate issues:

a) recently steep increase in PL grind with iconics and racials and if one likes this or not.

b) the risk of losing items/tomes/destinies etc during a ER/ITR/RTR/HTR


while obviously the two are connected, as in,

the more often people use the TR system the more important it is that it works safely, or, as in,

if years of game effort are lost due to one bug it is unacceptable to treat this as a "rare occurence" or not fully reimburse losses


your choice of questions does not let me answer on those points seperately.
so the poll is useless, sry.

i.e. i feel the TR grind is not exactly an inspired, creative system of keeping people in the game - but - players can embrace or resent this as they like. on the other hand, the whole bug thing is nothing to do with player choices and their way of handling it so far is just pathetic eyesore and oh hell yeah they should fix it asap and change their communication policy and properly and swiftly help people affected. your poll cannot express that opinion.

Actually the options are:

A) I don't like TRing..

it was not anything to do with this...

a) recently steep increase in PL grind with iconics and racials and if one likes this or not.

It simply asks if it is they are not happy with TR system and don't want it.. You do NOT have to add your weight to it, but 9 people have, and in consideration of that, you should be aware of it.

and option B was:

B) TR system is fine, everyone should have to do it (if they want PL max out basically, I suppose I could have added this to further clarify, but this is an obvious position held by 14 people or more... something they added weight to and in consideration of that, you should be aware of it.

it was not

b) the risk of losing items/tomes/destinies etc during a ER/ITR/RTR/HTR

but included this as an obvious problem that has other players posting thread complaints and should be fixed. I figure if you support TR and like it, you probably want it to work right? Or do you like TRing, and want it to stay bugged? o.O

C) is new or don't know


It is an easy poll, and no one is forced to vote, but the votes speak on their own. They are statements that are getting supported and casting voice.

If you don't like the poll, here is an idea... start your own!

It isn't that hard!

I'll make sure to participate and won't attempt to dismiss it or those involved in it.

This poll is how I want it, not how you want it. So make one how you want it and hopefully we gain a better understanding of where people's heads are at, which is the point of this poll, and the reason 9 voted they are not happy with the TR system and feeling forced to TR 150 times for PL max out, while 14 voted it is good, just fixed the bugs, and for myself this might not be the perfect method of getting a clearer picture, but it is helping me to see it better nonetheless.

And since you took time to review the topic, it obviously concerned you enough to click the poll and furthermore make statement within it. Thank you for your participation. I apologize if we do not agree on what makes a good poll, but you are certainly welcome to make your own as I previously suggested.
Enjoy DDO!

[FuryFlash]

This poll is biased towards the OP's opinion, and none of the options matched my opinion. If unbiased options were provided, as suggested by previous posters, myself and others may have voted, to provide more accurate results.

To quote:
1. Yes, I am not happy forced to TR, repeat 150 times, risk bugs, and TRing is a nightmare!
2. No, everyone should have to TR, they just need to fix the bugs (if that ever happens)

Both option one and two carry the implication that the person choosing either option believes that people are being forced to TR. Many people, myself included, believe that nobody is forced to do anything in this game, let alone TR.

[Wonedream]

This poll is biased towards the OP's opinion, and none of the options matched my opinion. If unbiased options were provided, as suggested by previous posters, myself and others may have voted, to provided more accurate results.

To quote:
1. Yes, I am not happy forced to TR, repeat 150 times, risk bugs, and TRing is a nightmare!
2. No, everyone should have to TR, they just need to fix the bugs (if that ever happens)

Both option one and two carry the implication that the person choosing either option believes that people are being forced to TR. Many people, myself included, believe that nobody is forced to do anything in this game, let alone TR.

It doesn't matter if you didn't vote.

It matters that other people did