IS TRing broken and should we be giving a new way to avoid TRing and enjoy endgame?

[PermaBanned]

...homogenizing and power creep do not scare players away.

Powercreep handled properly is a slow escalation, not the leaps & bounds DDO has been taking.

Homogenization drives off existing players who were originally attracted by the lack of it.

[PermaBanned]

You don't get it. Even losing 5 people equates to a loss.

The spirit of this game should be how to gain 5 people!

The TR niche again shows it teeth, growling at other niche styles that would like to play DDO too!

"We don't care" is the message they send! "Just quite its our game" is the message they send.

"We want to make a game great for everyone" is the message I never hear from their lips.

"Just go"...

If game loses 5 people and doesn't gain any, what direction is that leading to?

Think like a business man please. Money, we want more people playing because it means more people paying.

If they are developing updates with a "we don't care if 5 more people leave and no more people join" attitude, then this game is doomed to becoming 1 server of burnt out players still running in circles because they are too proud to admit they were wrong.

Maybe they will be still having fun, what is left of them...


I don' t think they will be having as much fun as the reality crystalize before their eyes.


We need a direction that will add 5 players to the game, not lose 5 players to the game. That is the spirit of success.

Being the money making boss that you are, you should already be familiar with the New Coke problem, especially considering there's no "DDO Classic" equivalent to put back on the shelf.

When encouraging game changes to DDO that would make it more like other games, you really should be aware that there's an important puzzle piece you're overlooking: what will encourage these other players to leave the games they're already playing? How do you ensure bringing in enough players with these changes to offset the loss of existing players who don't like the changes?

[Full_Bleed]

I won't vote because the wording of the poll is biased and does not provide adequate options.

There is nothing wrong with the TRing concept. It's actually quite brilliant.

But the TRing experience does need to be improved... especially since the entire game revolves around it.


1) If it can't be 100% reliable, it needs a 100% reliable ROLL-BACK option. This should be NON-NEGOTIABLE.
2) Fix/expand/improve the TR cache. Dealing with inventory management and any existing TR cache when getting ready to TR *is* a nightmare. It's probably the worst part of the process. If they want people to TR more and enjoy the process they need to fix this horrific part of it.

[Wonedream]

Being the money making boss that you are, you should already be familiar with the New Coke problem, especially considering there's no "DDO Classic" equivalent to put back on the shelf.

When encouraging game changes to DDO that would make it more like other games, you really should be aware that there's an important puzzle piece you're overlooking: what will encourage these other players to leave the games they're already playing? How do you ensure bringing in enough players with these changes to offset the loss of existing players who don't like the changes?

By being the best at offering a game that gives everyone something they like to do, and piecing it together in a way that fits and makes for broad experience containing many subtle experiences within.

DDO has to offer something other games can't, haven't yet, or won't. Multiple play styles is a great way to offer a lot, and more likely nail one of those things then single niche style. What if DDO players could collect cards in the game that allowed them to play a card game in the game? Now we got a niche... collectable card game niche. If it is anything like some of them (card games), it could be a big money maker.

DDO could advertise to various niches... appeal to more kinds of people...

Not everyone wants to play cards. Maybe they find cards in dungeons or buy them. We end up with merchants in the market selling and dealing just to get their cards, or paying money for those cards. This type of game add is easy, super easy. And it does not force you to play cards in the game. There is no advantage to having these cards in a fight. But having good cards is an advantage to playing the card game. Beholder cards... to assemble beholder decks....

Sure, Magic the Gathering already has that niche nailed. So, if DDO started to nibble away by doing their own version (which is totally legal) they will end up with more players, and servers would grow instead of shrink. Is there any reason to complain about someone in the tavern sitting there playing cards with someone else, when they wouldn't even be here at all otherwise? And these players end up playing ddo to get cards here and there?

I personally really like it, I would be questing, see they are having fun and happy, and leave them alone. Maybe join in for a quick card game before I hit the dungeons again.

Games within games all merged into a single game...

Games are already sorta trying this, some are actually sorta pulling it off too.

Should Card Collection Niche be next target? I would say before dealing with that answer, let us do a good market analysis.

[TacoBob33]

DDO has to offer something other games can't, haven't yet, or won't.

Whoops you just described the TR system. It's the itch that some players like to scratch. That combined with a diverse character building and even more diverse customization with the TRing system is what makes DDO a niche game. If you stray from that, it's no longer fitting it's niche, and it loses it's player base. Trying to fill other niches in the game take away valuable effort from improving or adding on to the current one, which is what players come for. I'd rather TR with 5 good friends than have a thousand strangers who they ruined my fun for.

[Iriale]

This survey is poorly designed and clearly biased by OP phobias. This is why I refuse to vote.

My opinion:

TR is a mechanic that has done a lot of good at DDO. But at the same time, DDO also needs an end game. Without an end game, why farm all those lives?

Only TR becomes monotonous very soon. Only end game becomes monotonous very soon. The ideal is to have both, that lengthens the life of the game. So, yes, DDO needs the devs to rebuild an end game as soon as possible and bring raids back to life. But the game does not need to destroy the TR; that is not good.

I particularly enjoyed an end game where the raids were alive and I could enjoy my character at full power. Then, when I was tired or not raid party or friends were available in that moment, I enjoyed leveling up my main or an alt in a TR. Of course, that was before SSG killed the alts, and the raids, and a lot of content with their poor design.

PS: I always believed that epic lives should have been designed to get them in cap as raid rewards instead of another TR system, which was already redundant, but it was too much to ask the designers to have imagination and get out of the already established systems. Just look at the deplorable design of the current racial TR, they did not even have the vision to make them front-loaded leaving the +1 skill bonus for the third life (Powergamers would do all 30 lives anyway for the racial complecionist feat).

In any case, I do not think that all the rewards of the TR must be obtainable in the cap. I think that both the TR and the end game should be encouraged, with different rewards.

[Renvar]

Pre-MOTU had 12 raids at level 20. We have 7 level 30+ raids now, half of which are updated heroic raids. Gaining Reaper XP should be something that's incentivized at cap, but isn't because it's more efficient to gain it via RTRs.

Not only that, 12 raids with how many yielding useful stuff?

Epic VoN - Red Dragon Armors, Helms, eSoS, etc.
Epic DQ - eMarilith Chain, eChaos Blade, eRoSS, eTorc, etc.
eChrono - Abashai Set was BiS for most builds
Shroud - One or two shroud items per toon was mandatory (HP and/or Conc Opp) plus clickies and DR breakers
ToD - Two ToD rings maybe a set bonus. +4 tomes in the 20th. Nuff Said.
Epic LoB - Alchem Weapons are BiS for many builds. Unique stat bumps. Good stuff.
Epic MA - See above.
Abbott - Litany. Quiver. Circle of Hatred, Staff of the Petitioner.
Reavers Fate - Madstone Boots, Ring of Lies, Napkin. Dreamspitter.
VoD - +3 Tomes, Tharnes Goggles, Glacier Set, Divine Vengeance
Hound - +3 Tomes, Tumbleweed, Thelis, Leviks


All relevant in some way. Something to get for some builds. You could argue 3 of them were of limited use. But the Into the Deep was practically a raid too, the way everyone went after Claw Set. There was stuff in House P and House D people wanted as well. 6 man content was valuable without being overshadowed by Raids or overshadowing them. (In part because two of the Epic raids dropped shards and the seals were found in 6 man content. This break up created a synergy that made all the content valuable. Without eliminating any.)

What do we have today?

Deathwyrm - Do you want Thunderforged past tier 2? Really? The other loot is ML 28 and superceded by far at this point. +11 stat. +30 Sheltering. Ugh.
FoTP - See above. Maybe you want the Draconic Reinvigoration as a swap in. Meridian Fragment is cool, but they are everywhere. The rest of the loot is not current.
MoD - Epic Litany? But Well Rounded Profane is on other, easier to acquire items that don't tie up your trinket slot. Epic Quiver is a BiS, if you aren't a monkcher. What else? I have most of this and don't wear it at 28, let alone 30. It isn't strong enough anymore.
DoJ - Again, ML 28 gear that hasn't aged well in comparison with newer BtA loot from new packs. Maybe Visions of Precision. But this raid is a lag fest. Nobody runs it. +12 stat and +4 Insightful stat at ML 28 is cute. Mines of Tethymar gives +17 stat and +4 QUALITY bonus at ML 28.
Leg Hound - Armors that are end game valuable. But easy to get. Many players have them. This raid is rarely if ever run. Despite being fast and easy.
Leg TS - Armors that are useful. Lots of chests. Can be run on reaper. This one is run, often. First raid that makes sense to run these days.
Leg Shroud - Definitely. Despite a very flawed crafting implementation, Challenging, fun, and useful to collect. Ender Set, HP sets, And a few weapons make sense.
RSO - The loot has value. The raid is just a bit challenging and longish and some mechanics some players don't enjoy. I like it. I think it will be run more if/when more people are staying at cap. (assuming the loot from Ravenloft doesn't invalidate it).

We have 3 raids that make sense to run. One (TS) mostly just because it has a lot of high level chests, is easy, and fun. The rest have had their loot invalidated by Dragonborn Prophecy, Mines of Teth, Slavelords, and CC Crafting.

The trick for SSG is to create ravenloft with compelling loot and systems WITHOUT wiping out the value of L Shroud, L TS, or RSO entirely. Or the value of Slavelords, Mines of Teth, or Dragonborn.

Building an end game isn't just about throwing out more content. It's about building a comprehensive, cohesive set of content that compliments each other rather than competing with each other or replacing each other.

[CaptainPurge]

Impossible to vote.

You have worded this against the house. You can't lead poll results with your opinion. Worst poll ever. Period.

Does Wonder****** need to be banned?
1. Yes he is a dbag
2. No but he is a dbag.

No matter which way you vote, you get a result Wonderkid wants.

[Riddle_of_Steel]

Class is far more homogenized in Wow. WAY WAY MORE. And Power creep there takes you to level 100. And, they have 20 million players.

This completely obliterates your argument!

If homogenized and powercreeping didn't work, WoW would be a big time flop.


No, Endgame works, and WoW proves this. It also proves that homogenizing and power creep do not scare players away.

It may be the hardest thing in your life to admit, but it is true that it really IS the TRing more then anything else driving away population growth.

*Sigh* Incomplete quotes and of course you missed the point, again.

First I am not sure if you play WOW or not but being someone who has been a WOW player I can tell you that there are distinct roles to be played and while there are some builds that crossover a little they generally trade off to get there. So If you build a tank and want to also cover healing then you generally swap your specs to heal instead of tank if you want to do both you will not be as good at either. In DDO this tradeoff is, at best minimal.

As for WOW power creep it's far more gradual and you can only get there if you can run to top content. To run the top content you generally need to have the gear from the previous top content which Blizzard does a good job of making it easier to get. Most of the people I know who play can generally catchup and old toon in a matter of hours to a couple of days to be able to run the newest content but it still takes time at that bleeding edge to get the gear there and WOW is far and away a gear driven game. The powercreep there is controlled, gradual and linear. They are also very good about monitoring the power gaps and creep and making adjustments to keep it in check , hell right before Warlords of Draenor dropped they implemented "the squish" that saw just about everything across the board reduced but 90-95% of it's previous numbers. They did this because they were getting silly large and also because it allows further balancing on their end. They have certainly made missteps along the way but they are pretty good at ensuring that content it's invalidated, sure they next carrot is better than the last but they don't have level 60 gear that is better than level 70 gear or level 70 gear that eclipses class power/abilities.

This leads me to the point that it's not the homogenization and creep that drove them away specifically it's the invalidation of effort which those contributed to. And calling in power creep is really doing it a disservice, it was full on power charge. A lot of players left in the great exodus after MOTU as they saw builds they spent, in some cases, years working on suddenly get caught up to and even surpassed on builds with minimal investment. It's the same sort of reason that people hate on Warlocks so badly. Most of the players I know who bailed after MOTU did it for this reason in the main.

Just wanted to clear that up, you seem to need the help.

[TacoBob33]

Pre-MOTU had 12 raids at level 20. We have 7 level 30+ raids now, half of which are updated heroic raids. Gaining Reaper XP should be something that's incentivized at cap, but isn't because it's more efficient to gain it via RTRs.

I didn't say that reaper shouldn't be better at cap, i'm just saying there's just as much to do (especially after Ravenloft) at endgame as there ever was. Yeah the new shiny of Racial TRs and reaper xp being better in heroics is herding people away from that endgame, but that doesn't mean there's not enough to do at cap it's just there's not enough people to do cap stuff with and there's no new shiny at cap either.

[Yamani]

Looking at all the talk about TRing in the past, and now how TRing is turning into a bug nightmare that kills your power instead of builds it... losing gear, tombs, slower loading, bugs... cant advance messages, losing trees, etc...

I think it is time to ask, should we be giving another OPTION so we are not forced to TR but can still get PLs... perhaps a lvl 30 raid???

Who is sick and tired of TRing... raise your hand!

And if you like TRing, what I am suggesting is TWO OPTIONS, one for those who don't mind risking their gear, tombs, and getting TR bugs and doing this to repeat the same stuff over..

And one for those of us who HATE IT and want endgame and think TRing is the dumbest thing ever and really really really despise it!!!

I'm curious, what bugs have YOU personally experienced(while tr'ing)? Not bugs you have heard about from others who tr'd and had an issue. I personally have Tr'd over 46 times (heroic alone) and not once can I recall losing any items that where of actual importance to me.

As for the lost TR cache from tr'ing. Thats an extreme minority and nothing new. It "resurged" recently due to the increase of tr's due to racial reincarnation and everyone took off on it when 1 player had it happen to him.

[Wonedream]

I'm curious, what bugs have YOU personally experienced(while tr'ing)? Not bugs you have heard about from others who tr'd and had an issue. I personally have Tr'd over 46 times (heroic alone) and not once can I recall losing any items that where of actual importance to me.

As for the lost TR cache from tr'ing. Thats an extreme minority and nothing new. It "resurged" recently due to the increase of tr's due to racial reincarnation and everyone took off on it when 1 player had it happen to him.

Bugs don't bother me so far (crosses fingers).

It isn't about bugs for me. Or me getting my way even. I am looking carefully at what Riddle of Steel just wrote and thinking about that. Basically I am just focusing on how to get the population to increase. So reading and sifting through these forums helps me to get a better idea of what is going on.

The question is TR broken was referring more to the idea of TRing has what makes DDO so great? The bugs just showed up at this odd timing, which is bugging some people. Riddle says a big part of it is invalidation. A lot of gear that was working on for many years got suddenly invalidated, and many players lost interest at that point.


So I gotta look at where we are now, and wonder how could we improve population from here? Would it be possible to retrieve many of the players who left? It is difficult to communicate with them now, so this makes the question much more problematic to answer. So, then gear validated their experience?

Sentient weapons might be the new thing.

Though I think this game should cover as many bases as possible, and I remember many players asking for what they call endgame, being capped and having stuff to do, and not feeling obliged to TR 135 times first to be developed. While the TR niche may never understand these people, or the value they add to the game, they are nonetheless part of the game and playing it in spite of their preferred niche style.

I want to see this game become absurdly successful. So first thing I am thinking is how to get it making more money.

Increase population.

How do we do that?

Fill niches with great care, consideration, and well thought out so they do not collide with each other, but compliment each other.

The first ones to consider are the easiest one's to add, that open market up to as big as possible niches.

The niche I have heard called most for on these forums is endgame niche, so I'd say that is probably the best one to fill first.

Many are already filled, and many could easily be created based on what exists already in the game.

These niches are what gets people playing.

Advertising would want to follow up when they are in a good position to exceed customer expectations.

I think they are tuning in to this, and Sentient weapons may not validate the items of the past, but if they are well done, could be a huge hit that also expands niches, thus opening up player base to more player preferences, and therefor seeing increase in game participation. Which leads to population increase.

I'd like to see the budget increase because it means we get updates faster, bugs cleaned quicker, and overall a better operation.

[TacoBob33]

and I remember many players asking for what they call endgame, being capped and having stuff to do, and not feeling obliged to TR 135 times first to be developed.

Pro Tip: You don't have to TR to be functional in highest difficulty content.