IS TRing broken and should we be giving a new way to avoid TRing and enjoy endgame?

[Wonedream]

Looking at all the talk about TRing in the past, and now how TRing is turning into a bug nightmare that kills your power instead of builds it... losing gear, tombs, slower loading, bugs... cant advance messages, losing trees, etc...

I think it is time to ask, should we be giving another OPTION so we are not forced to TR but can still get PLs... perhaps a lvl 30 raid???

Who is sick and tired of TRing... raise your hand!

And if you like TRing, what I am suggesting is TWO OPTIONS, one for those who don't mind risking their gear, tombs, and getting TR bugs and doing this to repeat the same stuff over..

And one for those of us who HATE IT and want endgame and think TRing is the dumbest thing ever and really really really despise it!!!

[TDarkchylde]

The last time we had an actual, non-TR-driven endgame around here, it was BORING. And the poll in this thread is biased.

If it's broken, sure, fix it - but NO ONE is forced to TR. "But the past life powercreep" - news flash, you don't NEED them to do the job! There's no content in the game that says "you must have this many past lives to enter." None. It makes things a bit easier, and having past lives does make some specific builds work a lot better, but by no means are they mandatory unless you want to steamroll the absolute hardest-difficulty content in the game, which no one here is entitled to be able to do. If you're seeing your character as gimped without all the past lives, put in the same work we did and get them. Or don't! No one's stopping you, neither is anyone forcing you, except you.

I have first and second life characters that do the same exact job in the current endgame content as uber completionists and do it 99% as well, which is good enough to run content with my guildies.

[SerPounce]

I love the poll's wording, but you probably should have thrown in that people who like TR hate puppies and ice cream.

I know this is a favorite hobby horse on the forums, but every quest since the cap increase has had legendary versions of the new quests right? I get the reaper XP complaints, and agree that there should be a cap bonus, but I don't think the claim that current development has been ignoring cap play generally really matches the facts. This is a small game with a small staff and therefore slow development. If all you want to do is run new quests on your capped toon then there's not going to be that much stuff to do. Maybe just log out between updates and do something else?

[scipiojedi]

I love the poll's wording, but you probably should have thrown in that people who like TR hate puppies and ice cream.

Half of this is true.

[Renvar]

So the choices are:

I am not happy

Everyone should have to TR

or

I don't know anything.

Great poll. Lol.

[Dragavon]

To say that you are forced to TR is completely ridiculous.

This is a game, and it is your choice to play it. It is your choice what you do when you are playing.

If you dont like it stop playing.

[J-mann]

"forced" to tr? just like I will be "forced" to grind a couple of quests at cap for SW? Personally TRing is a hell of a lot more fun than cap because I can try different builds and have a much larger variaty of quests and the progression feels much more meaningful (levels matter) imo epics are pretty boring. My only sadness with tr is that so many builds develop so late due to dev choices that they are effectively locked to epics only.

[blerkington]

They need to fix reincarnation so people can do it safely, and also provide a decent incentive for running content at cap.

If these two ways to play the game both work and are enjoyable, the game gains longevity from letting its customers being able to switch between them. When they get sick of one, they can do the other for a while.

The wording of the poll is pretty ridiculous btw, so I didn't vote, but that doesn't mean the discussion can't be sensible.

Thanks.

[Wonedream]

"forced" to tr? just like I will be "forced" to grind a couple of quests at cap for SW? Personally TRing is a hell of a lot more fun than cap because I can try different builds and have a much larger variaty of quests and the progression feels much more meaningful (levels matter) imo epics are pretty boring. My only sadness with tr is that so many builds develop so late due to dev choices that they are effectively locked to epics only.

You can also make alts to try different builds, and if there was a decent endgame, you could keep them instead of deleting them.

Easy really.

TRing sucks.

[Wonedream]

So the choices are:

I am not happy

Everyone should have to TR

or

I don't know anything.

Great poll. Lol.

Basically yeah, saying it how it is and how so many have argued that it is in the past. Great poll indeed because it is accurate about TRing and that TRing is a prerequisite for taking on highest challenges (lvl 30 reaper 10). Someone else already pointed that out in this thread.

Sure you don't HAVE to do that, unless you want to take on best challenge.. then you HAVE to do that.. which takes more time then it should take, and is done in a way that is not to the preference of everyone, nor a majority of players, which is why so many others have already moved on and left DDO...

I am left debating with the one's who stayed because they like this grindy boring repetition for some reason.

My back up is long gone...

I stand alone in speaking what is right.


But I stand and here I am speaking, saying what some do not want to hear, but what must be stated because it is true.

[Wonedream]

... but by no means are they mandatory unless you want to steamroll the absolute hardest-difficulty content in the game, which no one here is entitled to be able to do. ....

Hahaha, so if you want to be able to take on the hardest difficulty in the game you need PLs you are saying...

Then you turn around and contradict yourself, saying no one is forcing...

The point of any game is to do the best, meaning best challenge, etc...

Others will get this, you probably won't.

Enjoy your "endgame"... ahem.. I mean endless repetition game...

[Cantor]

Hahaha, so if you want to be able to take on the hardest difficulty in the game you need PLs you are saying...

Actually he said steamroll it. Big difference.

[Thrudh]

The last time we had an actual, non-TR-driven endgame around here, it was BORING. And the poll in this thread is biased.

When the cap was 20, I found the game to be the best. You couldn't repeat epic quests over and over and over in the same day, so people were doing many different quests at cap. Good variety. Gear was the goal at cap. Either epic shard/seal/scrolls or raid gear. Plenty of raid groups every day.

And when you got tired of that, you could TR and enjoy the 1-20 game again. Usually when people got back to 20, they didn't immediately TR again. Instead they would stick at cap for a while and do some more epic questing to work on more gear.

It was a good balance.

If it's broken, sure, fix it - but NO ONE is forced to TR. "But the past life powercreep" - news flash, you don't NEED them to do the job! There's no content in the game that says "you must have this many past lives to enter." None. It makes things a bit easier, and having past lives does make some specific builds work a lot better, but by no means are they mandatory

I agree. TRs are not mandatory. Most of the TR systems are heavily front-loaded, and you can get 70%-80% of the benefits with just a few heroic PLs, or a few epic PLs. Racial TRing, however, is the exception. It's heavily back-loaded, which is annoying, but one can still +2 to your main stat with only 4 racial past-lives.

I have first and second life characters that do the same exact job in the current endgame content as uber completionists and do it 99% as well, which is good enough to run content with my guildies.

I do too, assuming you are talking about epic elite and legendary elite. None of my guys are running 5+ reaper though, until I get more reaper XP (which technically isn't a TR system, but until the devs fix reaper XP at cap, it heavily drives one to TR).

[Wonedream]

When the cap was 20, I found the game to be the best. You couldn't repeat epic quests over and over and over in the same day, so people were doing many different quests at cap. Good variety. Gear was the goal at cap. Either epic shard/seal/scrolls or raid gear. Plenty of raid groups every day.

And when you got tired of that, you could TR and enjoy the 1-20 game again. Usually when people got back to 20, they didn't immediately TR again. Instead they would stick at cap for a while and do some more epic questing to work on more gear.

It was a good balance.



I agree. TRs are not mandatory. Most of the TR systems are heavily front-loaded, and you can get 70%-80% of the benefits with just a few heroic PLs, or a few epic PLs. Racial TRing, however, is the exception. It's heavily back-loaded, which is annoying, but one can still +2 to your main stat with only 4 racial past-lives.



I do too, assuming you are talking about epic elite and legendary elite. None of my guys are running 5+ reaper though, until I get more reaper XP (which technically isn't a TR system, but until the devs fix reaper XP at cap, it heavily drives one to TR).

Thank you Thuhd, great answers!

I agree that you can get most of the real goodies from a few TRs, but from the perspective of a new person getting introduced to this game after 5 years of playing WoW or some game with no TR system... try to see it from their perspective, and most of these are more hardcore about gaming then your usual players, they won't blink an eye at this, as soon as they see 135 to reach full development, they are gone.

If they could get this while capped, it looks like a better endgame then 135 TRs, which does not look at all like that to them.



I know this game well, and you are right, with just a few PLs in the right places you can get most of that. You can also get a +5 stat tomb from favor every life, so if you TR 6 times you can have +5 on your your stats without buying a tomb. Most toons don't need all their stats higher, just their main stats, which is usually 3. With 3 lives you can get legendary title, and +5 to your main 3 stats.

I think they should keep it that way too, so the only way to get those +5 stats is favor and TRing, which they should NOT get rid of, but simply provide an option so people who prefer to play capped can play capped and enjoy their character development instead of having only the level 1 again option. I will TR for those +5 tombs and that legendary title. Nothing else.

Now, if they can get PLs while capped, but can't get these few things I mentioned, it gives them an incentive to TR a few times without intimidating them with 135 times. If it looks mandatory, it will deeply affect the impression they get of this game.

They will eventually go after those tombs and title and the +4 stats probably from first two TRs, but they won't even get into it if it looks like its 135, which right now it does to a serious gamer, and you gotta consider gamers serious enough if they are playing or you are not seriously considering them.


Being at cap, with an option to TR, but also an option to run lots of content and develop your character is what it will take to restore those days when you yourself said this game was at its best.

That was the best time then, not now. We could bring back that model, but this is where it starts, adding PL acquisition and more content for endgamer style players, while at the same time letting them TR if they want, or if those +5 tombs, +4 stats, and title tempt them to. The lure for TRing should not go beyond that, and should be something people do because they like to and want to and not because it is the ONLY way to get PLs.

[TacoBob33]

When the cap was 20, I found the game to be the best. You couldn't repeat epic quests over and over and over in the same day, so people were doing many different quests at cap. Good variety. Gear was the goal at cap. Either epic shard/seal/scrolls or raid gear. Plenty of raid groups every day.

And when you got tired of that, you could TR and enjoy the 1-20 game again. Usually when people got back to 20, they didn't immediately TR again. Instead they would stick at cap for a while and do some more epic questing to work on more gear.

You do realize though that cap on a 3rd life toon was 4.2mil+ xp and to get from level to level you had to grind quests out for an insanely long period of time to get to the next level especially the closer you got to cap right? That was the deterrent to TRing back then and people still bothered with it, it just wasn't as easy as staying at cap where all the people who didn't want an insane grind stayed at playing with eachother and doing shroud and epic runs all day. Now that they've taken away the fear of getting to 18 and actually having enough xp from quests to cap easily without repeating any quests at all people are more willing to take the TR train. There is still plenty to do at cap it's just that to eek out more power now there's alot of options for TRing.

[Wonedream]

This game will never see its population increase if TR system is only method to fully developing your character. Never. Servers will decline, merge, and population with be compressed to players unable to see this, while those who saw it and saw nothing done about it for so long will likely go to other games and only drop in to see if remaining base figured it out yet.

[TacoBob33]

This game will never see its population increase if TR system is only method to fully developing your character. Never. Servers will decline, merge, and population with be compressed to players unable to see this, while those who saw it and saw nothing done about it for so long will likely go to other games and only drop in to see if remaining base figured it out yet.

so like, 5 people drop? i'm ok with this

[TacoBob33]

No, there's not enough to do at cap. Pre-MOTU there was enough to do at cap -- about a dozen raids. After raising the level cap three times, the devs haven't provided enough of an incentive to stay at cap.

you have almost as many raids at cap now as you had at cap then, minus like 2

[Eryhn]

you have mixed in your poll 2 seperate issues:

a) recently steep increase in PL grind with iconics and racials and if one likes this or not.

b) the risk of losing items/tomes/destinies etc during a ER/ITR/RTR/HTR


while obviously the two are connected, as in,

the more often people use the TR system the more important it is that it works safely, or, as in,

if years of game effort are lost due to one bug it is unacceptable to treat this as a "rare occurence" or not fully reimburse losses


your choice of questions does not let me answer on those points seperately.
so the poll is useless, sry.

i.e. i feel the TR grind is not exactly an inspired, creative system of keeping people in the game - but - players can embrace or resent this as they like. on the other hand, the whole bug thing is nothing to do with player choices and their way of handling it so far is just pathetic eyesore and oh hell yeah they should fix it asap and change their communication policy and properly and swiftly help people affected. your poll cannot express that opinion.