Warlock NERF Again

[slarden]

And when did that environment start? When warlocks were released. All groups run elite because anyone can build a warlock and do elite with zero effort without warlocks it would not happen. It makes sense that non skilled players gravitate to that builds to be able to play elite effectively, it's the logical consequence. What does not make sense if having such a game breaking build available. If someone want to solo they should play on lower difficulties, elite ( or the max difficulty setting) should require 6 ppl or close to that to compete effectively. I agree that the difference on rewards between elite and the rest is too big and pushes ppl to play elite even if they are not ready, I would close the gap on that personally but that's for another thread since this one is about warlocks.

Ppl who's not elite ready should be gearing, getting past lifes, getting playing experience and game knowladge in lower and more forgiving difficulties, and we would have a much more skilled playerbase. Insted they were handed a class to steamroll elites in braindead mode and the current state of the game and it's playerbase is the result of such disaster.

It's up to Turbine to decide whether it's a problem that more people are running on elite. That trend started long before warlock with the very first balance pass. That was the whole reason they started doing the pass was to bring weaker builds in line with top builds. The average player may do better with warlock than other builds - although there are many strong builds.

I think game breaking builds can only be assessed when comparing characters at level cap with optimal gear, past lifes, etc. We can agree to disagree on that one.

[Angelic-council]

Agreed, but mostly these things are available to other builds except crit damage which is only available to TS capstone builds (very rare in my experience) and builds with a /5+ wizard splash going tier 5 in archmage. 30% crit damage is more common among warlocks. Base damage is 100%, crit base damage is 100%, 25% from scion of fire, 36% material opposition bonus and then 30-60% for wizards and warlocks.

Ruin, greater ruin, arcane pulse is certainly available to all builds.

From my testing ES/TS beats SE/TS for bursting mobs due mostly to non-math reasons - targeting, positioning, synergies - but SE/TS is much better boss damage with consume and stricken to add to the arsenal and the 60% crit damage vs 30%. I also use wave on bosses which is triple blast scaled at 150% on my SE/TS but my SE/TS is instakill build spec'd also for DPS giving up a few dc. Both builds are really good and obviously wave is more damage than both blasts combined, but targeting is an issue. Eldritch Ball is the same damage as eldritch burst but without the extra light damage. Base damage of Eldritch burst is just over 100 before spellpower and crit multiplier so 4k is about right on a crit without vulnerability and helplessness as 40k (1000 base damage vs 100) is about right for greater ruin before other factors are considered (vulnerability, arcane supremacy, etc.).

I am not seeing how you are jumping from 4k to 10k with ball vs. blast when the ball is scaled to 150% spellpower vs eldritch burst 100% but eld burst has extra light damage.

Sure, eldritch ball doesn't do equal damage as eldritch burst. I'll explain why: eldritch ball does 150% damage + any effect that comes with eldritch blast. That's why I have taken ES up to tier 4 and acquired enlightment toggle. I use both eldritchball + eldritch burst, I have very high evocation DC so monsters usually don't resist pact damage and TS will maximize eldritch damage further on top of ES. Why I'm seeing 10k would be very simple, high crit/high spell power and it proc twice in close range (major factor here, eldritch ball has very wide range), so 300% spell damage. Difference in scaling between 100% vs 150% are huge when you have extra light and spell power damage. It doesn't just go up by 100, since you can also meta, it go up by 1000+.

ES gives me aura menace as well, and tier 5 TS boost DC. Allowing me to land equal or better CC/instant kill than SE. SE is surely good at single target. But TS/ES is very stable, can dish trash faster and kill red name just fine and it's fast. Not sure if you remember Slarden, but when you posted about warlocks (before they went live), I was the one who pointed out warlock's flaws and their DPS/DC issues

I don't have any bonus aggro abilities, but I played with 100s of warlocks.. Even with my guild who has every gear and multi past lifes, but use ES bursts. I always seem to kill faster and grab aggro when fighting red names, and since I tried ES, I can tell it's better.

[slarden]

it proc twice in close range (major factor here, eldritch ball has very wide range), so 300% spell damage.

Ah thank you, the double proc explains it.

[Angelic-council]

Ah thank you, the double proc explains it.

I told you before, silly

Btw, I don't get why you say burst > eldritch ball (ignore double proc). Because 3d6 light damage doesn't add up to 50% more spell damage from eldritchball.

[slarden]

I told you before, silly

Btw, I don't get why you say burst > eldritch ball (ignore double proc). Because 3d6 light damage doesn't add up to 50% more spell damage from eldritchball.

Yes I meant before the multiplier. The base damage of the burst/blast and ball are identical except for the bonus light damage from the slas. That is why I was expecting the ball to be around 6k since I didn't know about the double proc.

[Angelic-council]

Yes I meant before the multiplier. The base damage of the burst/blast and ball are identical except for the bonus light damage from the slas. That is why I was expecting the ball to be around 6k since I didn't know about the double proc.

It's cool. You would be surprised how many new things I learned this past 2 months.

[PermaBanned]

And when did that environment start? When warlocks were released. All groups run elite because anyone can build a warlock and do elite with zero effort without warlocks it would not happen.

Wait - what? Elite became the default difficulty after Warlock was introduced?

Hahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahah - ha!

[Chai]

As much as I agree with most of your points and arguments I fail to see how furyshotters are exploiting...

Also putting on the same lvl of OPness warlocks and furyshoters is ridiculous imo, I see bad players doing good on warlocks daily, I have yet to see a bad player doing good on a furyshotter. It takes way more skill to play one properly that most ppl here think, give a newb a furyshoter build and he will struggle give that same newb a warlock build and he will shine, or, in the worst case scenario, just do fine.

This is incorrect in more ways than one. Lets start with the fact that furyshot builds are easier to run, requiring less actions per minute to optimize results than warlocks do. DDO doesn't have physical stamina resource management (unlimited jumping, sustainable higher run speeds, etc), so its not like circle kiting is rocket science in this game. Than lets not forget that furyshot builds have been in game since 2012. Not only is furyshot an easier build to play than most, but players have had a 3+ year head start to learn how to optimize playing them, before warlock even entered the game. The number of players who complained about furyshot builds being the easy button and demanding nerfs of it in the past, who are inthis thread demanding warlock nerfs, is in the double digits. THis is BEFORE all the sockpuppet accounts are identified with original forum handles, so that number is likely a bit higher. Now youre doing a complete 180 on that and claiming furyshot takes more skill to play? Noted, and retained.

No game change should ever occur due to this much waffling in feedback. This new thing, is the new "doesn't take skill to play so it needs a nerf" thing, and the forums are more than happy to point out the last thing they claimed didn't need skill to play in the past, now takes more skill to play than this new thing does. Which is it? Did the "this new thing" of the past take very little to no skill to play, or does it require more skill to play? Depends. Do we want it nerfed this week, or do we want something else nerfed this week.

[PermaBanned]

No game change should ever occur due to this much waffling in feedback. This new thing, is the new "doesn't take skill to play so it needs a nerf" thing, and the forums are more than happy to point out the last thing they claimed didn't need skill to play in the past, now takes more skill to play than this new thing does. Which is it? Did the "this new thing" of the past take very little to no skill to play, or does it require more skill to play? Depends. Do we want it nerfed this week, or do we want something else nerfed this week.

I think it's like a reverse power-creep type of effect.

When an Update makes something more uber than last updates top uber, last update's top uber is now a gimp (even when nothing on the build its self changed).

When the new easy thing is even easier than the old easy thing, the old thing is now difficult (even when nothing on the old easy thing changed).

[Chai]

I think it's like a reverse power-creep type of effect.

When an Update makes something more uber than last updates top uber, last update's top uber is now a gimp (even when nothing on the build its self changed).

When the new easy thing is even easier than the old easy thing, the old thing is now difficult (even when nothing on the old easy thing changed).

Yep, when a stick of dynamite would do the trick people are demanding a nerf of the 2 kiloton nuke because its more powerful than the 1.8 kiloton nuke which came before it.

How many times was that old easy thing demanded nerfs, and how many time did those nerf demands succeed in getting it nerfed.

Had paladins not been nerfed they would be closer to top of the current meta.
Had bards not been nerfed they would be closer to top of the current meta.
Had barbarians not been nerfed they would be closer to top of the current meta.
rinse/repeat, with inserting the name of the last "new thing" which is less powerful and somehow more easy than the last "new thing" before it, in part because nerfs were demanded of it.

Q: How many cycles of this pattern does it take for us to learn the pattern and refrain from asking it to continue.
A: Longer than 10 years worth.

[nokowi]

Q: How many cycles of this pattern does it take for us to learn the pattern and refrain from asking it to continue.
A: Longer than 10 years worth.

It looks like after 10 years devs may have learned to not buff the latest thing past everyone else. At least that's what we see right now in Monk.

To their credit, in the past they would have nerfed to uselessness, which they have not done for bard, paladin, barbarian, and Warlock.


Many of those asking for nerfs would generally like new passes to be to similar power to the nerfed classes.

If the lesson is that devs won't design new passes to a similar power level, the most recent evidence suggest otherwise.

[Chai]

And when did that environment start? When warlocks were released. All groups run elite because anyone can build a warlock and do elite with zero effort without warlocks it would not happen. It makes sense that non skilled players gravitate to that builds to be able to play elite effectively, it's the logical consequence. What does not make sense if having such a game breaking build available. If someone want to solo they should play on lower difficulties, elite ( or the max difficulty setting) should require 6 ppl or close to that to compete effectively. I agree that the difference on rewards between elite and the rest is too big and pushes ppl to play elite even if they are not ready, I would close the gap on that personally but that's for another thread since this one is about warlocks.

Ppl who's not elite ready should be gearing, getting past lifes, getting playing experience and game knowladge in lower and more forgiving difficulties, and we would have a much more skilled playerbase. Insted they were handed a class to steamroll elites in braindead mode and the current state of the game and it's playerbase is the result of such disaster.

Elite as default difficulty started 5 full years previous to warlock release.

[Chai]

It looks like after 10 years devs may have learned to not buff the latest thing past everyone else. At least that's what we see right now in Monk.

To their credit, in the past they would have nerfed to uselessness, which they have not done for bard, paladin, barbarian, and Warlock.


Many of those asking for nerfs would generally like new passes to be to similar power to the nerfed classes.

If the lesson is that devs won't design new passes to a similar power level, the most recent evidence suggest otherwise.

We shall see, when the next thing they sell arrives, how much that lesson is learned. There some speculation on new races, for instance...

The marketing conundrum on this is a catch 22:
-If its not better than older stuff less money is made on it
-If its better than older stuff they make more short term money but then the nerf demands take the forums by storm.

This is what happens when the business model is selling character power. However round about way people chose to justify it in the past, it all boils down to the same business model. Warlock is merely the next step. Instead of players buying their way past having to farm PLs to refine the character to be LE viable, they can buy a class that is LE viable with less effort and investment. While still not the most powerful entity a player can play, it is the easiest entry into the LE game. This is what happens when the previous tier level of character power saturates itself amongst the populace that is interested in buying it. Turbine had to come up with a way to continue making money selling character power, and this transition from "buying refinement of same character" to outright "buying powerful character" was bound to happen sometime.

[nokowi]

Elite as default difficulty started 5 full years previous to warlock release.

I would put it at the introduction of bravery streak, which I believe was 5 years ago, and only 2 years before Warlock.


While players could run elite, XP/min caused most players to run N farm and one time hard and elite.

Put another way, prior to bravery, you would have no problem finding a normal run/farm.

[nokowi]

We shall see, when the next thing they sell arrives, how much that lesson is learned. There some speculation on new races, for instance...

The marketing conundrum on this is a catch 22:
-If its not better than older stuff less money is made on it
-If its better than older stuff they make more short term money but then the nerf demands take the forums by storm.

This is what happens when the business model is selling character power. However round about way people chose to justify it in the past, it all boils down to the same business model. Warlock is merely the next step. Instead of players buying their way past having to farm PLs to refine the character to be LE viable, they can buy a class that is LE viable with less effort and investment. While still not the most powerful entity a player can play, it is the easiest entry into the LE game. This is what happens when the previous tier level of character power saturates itself amongst the populace that is interested in buying it. Turbine had to come up with a way to continue making money selling character power, and this transition from "buying refinement of same character" to outright "buying powerful character" was bound to happen sometime.

Yes, the Wisdom tree (similar to Harper) could make a mockery of what I just said.

[Forzah]

The question is whether the extra money from initial sales weighs up against the later costs for fixing stuff and losing players. By doing it right right away, you will not lose the players that are annoyed by the initial overpoweredness, nor the players that get annoyed because stuff is nerfed at a later point.

The vast majority of players will buy a new class even if it isn't more powerful than something that existed before: not just for the past life feat but also to try out something new.

[slarden]

I would put it at the introduction of bravery streak, which I believe was 5 years ago, and only 2 years before Warlock.


While players could run elite, XP/min caused most players to run N farm and one time hard and elite.

Put another way, prior to bravery, you would have no problem finding a normal run/farm.

Yes - that and rewards. Remember how many ingredients you used to get on normal vs. elite in shroud in 2011? Casual players never had a problem finding a normal shroud then and vets didn't mind joining a normal shroud. I've only seen one LN shroud LFM since the 2nd week Legendary Shroud came out. It's much harder to be a person that runs on normal now than it used to be so people gravitate towards higher difficulties to find people to play with. Also the player base is much more mature now compared to the FTP bubble when there was a huge # of new players running around.

[nokowi]

Yes - that and rewards. Remember how many ingredients you used to get on normal vs. elite in shroud in 2011? Casual players never had a problem finding a normal shroud then and vets didn't mind joining a normal shroud. I've only seen one LN shroud LFM since the 2nd week Legendary Shroud came out. It's much harder to be a person that runs on normal now than it used to be so people gravitate towards higher difficulties to find people to play with. Also the player base is much more mature now compared to the FTP bubble when there was a huge # of new players running around.

Good points.

In my opinion, the reward structure is partly a result of the ease of the game.

The least skilled players can now multibox (5 dummy toons standing at beginning) normal slavers and complete on one toon.

In the past, this would have been much more difficult to do.

Making the game too easy has negative effects that permeate throughout the rest of the game.


I agree with you on the maturity of players.

The sad fact is that some of the players who belong in LN shroud are probably not capable of running even that difficulty.

They lack the ability to coordinate anything and there are no leaders like we would have seen in the past.

Instead, they join LH and expect others to run them through it.

I call it the entitlement generation of DDO players.

[Vanhooger]

Good points.

The least skilled players can now multibox (5 dummy toons standing at beginning) normal slavers and complete on one toon.

You can multibox (5 dummy toons) with ease on elite too, that is broken..if they want an hypothetical end game grind. You shouldn't be able to pass ing in chest.

[nokowi]

You can multibox (5 dummy toons) with ease on elite too, that is broken..if they want an hypothetical end game grind. You shouldn't be able to pass ing in chest.

Some players can. Have you read this thread?

I would agree with their being little reason to pass ingredients for slavers.