Warlock NERF Again

[Knight_slayer]

For true game balance, the players themselves would have to be nerfed, not the classes.

GW2 has a professional PVP league with hundreds of thousands of dollars up for grabs, therefore balance between classes is highly controlled by ANET. The result is very limited build customization, has to be that way to achieve balance. Like you say, they also nerf the players themselves. They do this with rules, like not allowing players to use macros to perform multiple actions with the press of a single button. If you are found in pvp using a macro you can say goodbye to your account. DDO players are not nerfed like this and there are many examples on youtube of players using macros. Some for buffs and some for damage.

On my barb I could activate 6 buffs in 0.25 of a second after pressing a single button where doing it manually takes about 2 seconds, that's 800% faster. I don't like damage macros but some players use them very effectively. I've seen casters macro damage rotations so they press one button and a dozen or so spell fire off at the very maximum speed they can be cast because of global cool down and then repeats until a button is pressed again. This allows the player not to have to think about cool downs and they can focus only on movement and avoiding damage while maintaining the very maximum casting speed 100% of the time.

On my monk I used to macro the attack combination buffs, so 1 button press performs a chain of attacks and then activates the buff. Macros are very effective at increasing your characters capabilities. When I swapped from a three button mouse to a 21 button mouse with macro programming my ability in game increased by more than 100% effectiveness. Nerf Naga!

MMOs would be more like bowling, where the worst players are spotted a "handicap" score so there can at least be some competition.

TERA online does something like this where they grant a buff to players with a gear score lower than the set par for the content being played, its not as powerful as having the best gear but is a huge handicap for players without the top gear.

[Eth]

If so pls link it because after almost 25 pages ANYONE in that thread has POSTED ANY EVIDENCE of another class/build ( apart from the ones already mentioned) that can overperform like that. That would help a lot since we would be able for the first time after 25 pages to COMPARE FACTS WITH FACTS, instead of comparing facts to imaginary vids and completions, empty words, irrational arguments or subjective personal experiences that are, more often than not, biased.

Does fleshy sorc fill your criteria? Or will goalposts get moved further?
http://imgur.com/a/v2JGN
http://imgur.com/a/PdYHh

[Zoriaan]

I don't know what is sadder....the fact that you think warlocks are #1 on the power ladder across all toons, or the fact that you think a 40 minute solo completion of a quest is overperforming

May I please ask what you think of the 27 minute and 30 minute Legendary Elite Shroud completions? Do you feel the players in those groups, who are on pure mechs, furyshotters, fighters etc should also be nerfed because they as players are "over-performing" due to skill?

I am on Cannith, toon is called Zorian, I play maxxed out lock with all possible relevant past lifes x3, all epic past lifes x3, +7 tomes to all and all possible gear...I have been with DDO since 2008...trust me when I say they are not number 1 on the power ladder.

I do however agree with the sensible people on here like Vanooger when he said that locks need to be scaled down a bit...absolutely...tainted scholar T5 is so good it is beyond me why not more use it...

On another note though, I would say that about 95% of the locks on Cannith are not anywhere as good as some pure barbs, fighters, sorcs, PM's I know and play with from time to time on cannith....maxxed out gear and past lifes help...a lot, but the number one factor is player skill.

There are fleshie sorcs (Vanooger knows who, in your guild) and barbarians on Cannith that can outperform most of the locks on cannith...not because of OP class but because of player skill...something that seems to be dying in this game...


They are great at clearing trash when trash has low saves and low HP (Also read as : LE Slave Lords)...but I challenge you take a standard issue blaster lock into Legendary Elite Shroud and try blast the trash....good luck you will be there all day..

As a reference to the haters : I have been in groups that complete the ENTIRE slave lords chain, looting every chest on LE, in LESS than 40 minutes, so why you think a 40 minute completion of p3 is OP is beyond me. Just p3 alone when in zergy mode is usually done in 11-12 minutes...some have done it under 10 apparently but I have not been in a group like that yet (need furyshotting for the red-named dps to achieve a sub-10)

So there you have my honest opinion about locks...they are amazing, not number 1 but amazing, but they can be toned down a bit...mainly the tainted scholar tree...maybe make it stacking 5/10/25 crit and not 10/20/30...that seems fair I think and should finally lay this issue to rest...

[Zoriaan]

Does fleshy sorc fill your criteria? Or will goalposts get moved further?
http://imgur.com/a/v2JGN
http://imgur.com/a/PdYHh

Eth, it is pointless to post this. We have barbs in our guild that can also complete this solo and there are a few sorcs on cannith that can do the same...people keep asking for screenshots or videos, but i would say 99% of the power player on Cannith don't even see these posts as they stay clear of forums...

Haters will be haters regardless....this completion is d/t player skill, as you are a great player and know game mechanics.

Also you have spent lots of time on your toon to learn it and build it up, something people dont understand.

Going by the peoples logic, it is 100% safe to say they ill now demand a sorc nerf as well I know full-well that 90% of DDO player cannot do this on a sorc, but does that mean that sorc should be nerfed because 10% of players who are skillful gamers are over performing on it? These nerf threads are laughable...

Amazing job btw

**looking for my pitchfork to start an angry mob....LETS NERF SORC...LETS NERF SKILL...**

[Knight_slayer]

This is what this thread is about. Whether the OP builds and archetypes are so much more powerful than the lesser builds that they make them kinda pointless.

Agh, no, that's not what this thread is about, maybe you have been posting here by mistake? This thread is about too many nerfs to specific classes (in this case warlock) driving players away from the game. You did manage to help derail the thread though.

And guess what, your friend has agreed to that. Except that he didn't have the honesty to come out and say that perhaps he had misjudged the thread and had to do so through a third party.

So I'm dishonest? Nice one. You are coming off as being a hypocrite!

We are mid class passes so of course some classes are behind to a point of being excessive.

[Forzah]

If they still want to do anything they need to do one targeted "balance update" where every balance issues is addressed at once. I believe it is easier for the community to accept one big change (affecting almost all classes) than repeated small changes to one class and then another over longer periods.

U34: the balance update. Nerf all self-healing and make DDO great again!

[Knight_slayer]

U34: the balance update. Nerf all self-healing

Yup, needs to happen. Across the board self healing is stupid OP. I would only support specific class nerfs if that specific class was excessively over performing across the board, which no class is currently doing, especially not warlock.

[Knight_slayer]

Does fleshy sorc fill your criteria? Or will goalposts get moved further?
http://imgur.com/a/v2JGN
http://imgur.com/a/PdYHh

Eth keep up with the thread, it must be done on a half orc assassin running in draconic. If you don't show that it's proof that warlock is super OP.

[2pc2]

Does fleshy sorc fill your criteria? Or will goalposts get moved further?
http://imgur.com/a/v2JGN
http://imgur.com/a/PdYHh

Yes I am rolling over slavers with my ranger
Yes I am rolling over slavers with my paladin.
Yes I am rolling over slavears with my barbarian

Feel free to provide proof of a kensei or a ranged build doing that kind of aoe damage while effectively tanking 5 LE bosses from the most new content.

That was my first post here, so I hardly moved any goalpost

So far I've solo'd slavers chain on warlock, wizard, barbarian, kensai, tempest, fvs, bard.

People have already linked videos of other classes soloing that end fight - there is no need for me to repeat it.

Had no issue soloing the end fight first try on my melee. I also don't know why you doubt you can do that on a kensai or barb.

That's your first post here. Seems like someone actually moves his goalposts

So we want a video of this done on a fleshy melee?

Yes or ranged I don't care really, that would be pretty cool because 9 pages later and lot of words about imaginary completions still no one posted a vid of a fleshy melee or ranged doing it, easy or not. A barb would be the best imo, if only to see how many SF pots it takes.

We only have got a screenshot that shows a fleshy melee takes double or 100% more time than the warlock on the vid to end the same quest on the same dificulty, but that's not the same as a vid to tell the real difference in difficulty and resources.

Already mentioned in my first post here that trees and some shiradi spammers are as broken and op as warlock. I also metioned there that those are the only other 2 builds with similar completions posted, but since this thread is warlock specific I keep my focus on them. Also I am sure some good warlocks can shave Vodoo time too. Also I'm sure non of those imaginary uber players will post anything remotely close to that cuz most of them are all words zero facts, or that's what they showed in this thread. I won't believe fleshy shuriken builds doing it untill I see it and I'm sure if they do it will be using cheesy tactics , some perch spot or in a more skilled way rather than just overpowering it like warlocks do, standing in the middle of 5 LE bosses while taking a cup of tea with 1 hand and pushing the same 3 buttons over and over with the other.

I played pure sorc till last week. It's indeed too strong AoE wise and can be compared to warlock if not better for slavers as you said.
Take same Sorc in TOEE and isn't that easy as Slavers. Of course you can do it, but look like Slavers for some reason was designed for Aoe casters.

Right?

( Hold + Burst of Glacial Wrath ) * Eburst/Nukes = every pack is dead

reconstruct ( or any ful heal button) makes the game a joke for any class and it's specially obvious on classes that lack selfheling.

I'm also surprised that you decided to take only a screen shot when you could have likend a, always more clarifying, vid; even more coming from someone who posted several vids and he knows how and have the tools to do it. With a vid we could have seen how much skill it took, how many pots ( if any), if you really used some of the warlock abilities you forgot to mention and that were in your hotbar, if you used some cheesy tactic or perch spot, if you used some broken and non WAI features such as the doubleshot Past life feat which may or may not be broken and giving a 9% stacking crit chances with elemntal spells ( those in the know will understand) etc...



That warlocks are overperforming is pretty clear after 20 pages of zero proof of any other non broken class coming close to it's performance, now what matters is finding the reasons why it's that way and what can be done to adress it before 90% of the game population is forced to play the same 2-3 builds if what they look for is efficiency.

And if you trully think I, and most posters here, are wrong and any class can do it and can overperform as warlocks, well, then post some evidence not a run done by a multiclassed warlock. You ( and anyone willing to try) have many chances : barb, ranger, bard, paladin, monk, rogue... just to name a few. It must be non baldeforged, you have plenty of other options : human, elf, PDK, dwarf, halfling, etc. It must not be a shiradi spammer ( since it's been already proven that they are as OP,if not more, as warlocks), there are plenty of desninies to take : LD, fury, draconic, magister, etc. And last it must not use non WAI features like trees do.

The roots of the problem is too many spell power too many crit chances and too many spell damage multiplier and too much AoE, warlocks benefit greatly of that and combined with their natural defenses and damagae mitigation via temp HP make that kind of OP aberration, shiradi spammers benefit even more and in combination with healing auras of 1000 hp a thick makes them as OP as warlocks. But since this thread is dedicated to warlocks I try to kep it as much warlock Based as it's possible without talking to much of the other 2-3 equally broken builds. [B]Most of that builds have some things in common : 1 they are magical damage dealers, 2 they run in shiradi, 3 they stack huge ammounts of Spell power, spell critchances and spell damage mutiplier, 4 they have ridiculous ammount of self healing and damage mitigation for a non frontline class, 5 they do huge AoE damage.

Did you read the part where a screenshot is hardly telling or clarifying anything? I don't see you standing in the middle of 5 LE bosses while taking a cup of tea anywhere. Did you miss the part when it was mentioned reconstruct and ANY FULL HEAL BUTTON make the GAME A JOKE for any class? Divine Wrath: Active Ability: (Cooldown 20 seconds, 40sp, standard Area of Effect) Call down divine wrath on foes, dealing 2d6 light damage per character level, will save for half (DC 10 + character level + charisma or wisdom mod). Allies caught within blast are healed for 1d6 HP per character level. Counts as a Light spell for incrementing Endless Ardor. Target must be manually selected. Yep, Divine wrath is a full heal button.

Have you done that on draconic would have given it some more credibility because despite having too much DPS and AoE damage at least it takes some skill to stay alive with only cocoon and heal scrolls when you don't have 250 PRR and a bunch of temp hp every few seconds.

Have you linked a vid we could have seen how important full self heals were, how may pots it took you if any, the degree of skill it took, if you were able to go afk in midlle of 8 LE mobs or 5 LE bosses for 30 secs without even being threatened etc.

So pls feel free to post a VID ( because we all know how missleading and manipulable screenshots can be) of a fleashy build with NO FULL HEALING BUTTON doing that if you really want to bring anything useful to the discussion. Some still waiting on a non magic damage dealing vid too, such as the barb or the kensei you told us that can do it fine. We only have seen warlocks , trees ( which don't count because they just use non WAI bugs), shiradi spammers, and now a sorc with full heal button complete that on a decent time.

It's clear that there is a huge disparity between magical damage dealers and physical damage dealers that just gets amplified in combination with already OP classes ( such as warlocks ) by itself , and that full healing button on a high DPS build make the game a joke for anyone, that's the only conclusions one can take from you screenshot and the 25 pages of this thread.

Here you have an example of an actually USEFULL FACT where everyone can see the whole run from second 1 to last second with all the important details and the greade of difficuty it has. No room for any doubts or cheese stuff with a vid and way more usefull to tell where the problems or the overperforming stuff is.



Some ppl here seem to take the things as a personal offense or something and are more worried about proving this or that wrong and prove themselve right (even when they really are not adding anything useful to the discussion) than actually resolving the huges imbalance we have in the game nowadays. Such ppl tend to delude themselves into thinking that reaper will fix everything and all will be fine, well, do as you like but if you really thing reaper will be anything good with such class disparity you are very, very wrong and someday, sooner than later, you will regret it.

[Knight_slayer]

Have you done that on draconic would have given it some more credibility

Rofl

[2pc2]

It's also very telling how some ppl, who at first tryed to use arguments and false claims about imaginary completions to back up this nonsense, have been reduced to posting LOL's, Rolf's and gifs, when they ran out of arguments, have been proven wrong or couldn't back up thier claims with facts. Just like any troll would do.

[Forzah]

It's also very telling how some ppl, who at first tryed to use arguments and false claims about imaginary completions to back up this nonsense, have been reduced to posting LOL's, Rolf's and gifs, when they ran out of arguments, have been proven wrong or couldn't back up thier claims with facts. Just like any troll would do.

I believe the completions themself are not imaginary, but of course the completions won't be as stupidly simple as in the video you showed

[Knight_slayer]

It's also very telling how some ppl, who at first tryed to use arguments and false claims about imaginary completions to back up this nonsense

Can you quote the false claims and imaginary completions so we know what you are referring to?

[Zoriaan]

Rofl

What did I tell you guys...goalposts keep moving...

@ 2pc2 and bigerkykid...have you actually ever taken part in or successfully completed LE shroud? Not hard or normal..but legendary elite...we used to have a bi-weekly LE Shroud static group and warlocks were not really welcome, unless they were instakill builds, as they were poor dps and there are many other toons that bring much much more to the table in LE shroud than standard issue warlocks...

Using one quest (and an easy one at that) as an example of a warlock over-performing means nothing....LE slavers is hardy a challenging quest arc...the sad reality is today's long time power players will roll over any standard quest arc on top difficulty on any toons..only slight challenge remaining to them are the 3 LE raids, and LE Tempest is actually laughably easy as well...

Please post a video of a blaster warlock over-performing in today's 3 end-game raids on Legendary Elite Difficulty...please go out and find one...oh yes...they don't exists because blaster warlocks are terrible trash dps as soon as saves and hp become inflated...then instakilling, cc, high burst dps and big hitting meelee start taking over...

I can post videos of Pale Masters in 30 minute LE Shroud completions with 3:1 more kills than anyone in the group. If you believe this means Pale Masters are OP you clearly have no idea. Ill gladly sit back on my furyshotter and let the pale master instakill trash, because I know, as soon as it is time for the red names to show up, it will be my time to shine and the pale master can then relax...it is called group play,,,everyone brings something to the table and as a unit they complete the raid...maybe you should try it sometime...

Maybe 1st learn how to play this game on top-tier difficulty before making comments about supposed OP classes...

Again @2pc2 and bigerkykid....what do you have to say abut groups that roll over LE Shroud in 30 minutes with no warlocks in the party?? I have also been in LE Shroud groups with 4 or 5 blaster warlocks in the party....it was laughable how bad the portal and red named DPS was...unless you mass spam ruin/gruin and drink infinite SP pots...

[Knight_slayer]

I believe the completions themself are not imaginary, but of course the completions won't be as stupidly simple as in the video you showed

Do you think there's no other build that can tank all the bosses and just stand there attacking till victory?

[the_one_dwarfforged]

speaking as someone who has only found much entertainment in this game as a thf melee, and nearly exclusively plays that, im pretty sure that any massive class imbalance is significantly in my favor.

the warlocks and leapers take all the grind out of the game for me. all i have to do is put on my +200 irl diplo ring and not get kicked out of groups.

also, i get threads like these. and i dont mean the at times genuine discourse over the game, i mean the blatant hostility.

thank you, thank you all.

[2pc2]

What did I tell you guys...goalposts keep moving...

@ 2pc2 and bigerkykid...have you actually ever taken part in or successfully completed LE shroud? Not hard or normal..but legendary elite...we used to have a bi-weekly LE Shroud static group and warlocks were not really welcome, unless they were instakill builds, as they were poor dps and there are many other toons that bring much much more to the table in LE shroud than standard issue warlocks...

Yes. And warlocks were welcome despite not being the best DPS in there, DPs is not everything is a part of the equation

Using one quest (and an easy one at that) as an example of a warlock over-performing means nothing....LE slavers is hardy a challenging quest arc...the sad reality is today's long time power players will roll over any standard quest arc on top difficulty on any toons..only slight challenge remaining to them are the 3 LE raids, and LE Tempest is actually laughably easy as well...

Same goes for warlocks in LE shroud, 1 single raid where warlocks are not overperforming means notghing... They still overperform most builds in the rest of the content by a huuuuuge margin. I used that Vid on that specific quest because I found it a very clear example to see what's going on with warlocks an this huge imbalance. Then some ppl started to make claims they could do that same very quest on that same dificutly on any other toon as easy as this warlock does. I asked for some proof about that and no one after 25 pages of this thread going on has delivered any. Most content released in the last 2 years it's just like salvers, huge packs of mobs spawning every 2 steps. So it's an example you can easily translate to 99% of the quests in game, most content in the game is just like as slavers while LE shroud is unique, nothing is like LE shroud. Everything or almost every quest is just like slavers, so what a warlock can do in slavers he can do in any quest or even better, except, maybe LE shoud 1 raid among hundreds of quests and raids.

Good players will roll over content with the current difficulty no matter what class, I know it and I have already mentioned that in this same thread before. But you have to understand that not everyone is a powergamer, that most ppl are not powergamers. And the sad reality of today game is that the "normal" average player will roll over slavers or any other quest in the game ( except maybe a few exeptions) with a warlock ( and couple or 3 other really broken builds ), while this same player will not be able to do that same thing on the rest of the classes builds or not so blatantly easy, to the point it completes quests double faster. That's a huge imbalance, the biggest I have seen over 6 years of playing DDO and warlocks are just the most clear example of that.

I can post videos of Pale Masters in 30 minute LE Shroud completions with 3:1 more kills than anyone in the group.

I don't give a f*** for kill counts, said that already. I care for efficiency and completion time, and having some fun.

Again @2pc2 and bigerkykid....what do you have to say abut groups that roll over LE Shroud in 30 minutes with no warlocks in the party?? I have also been in LE Shroud groups with 4 or 5 blaster warlocks in the party....it was laughable how bad the portal and red named DPS was...unless you mass spam ruin/gruin and drink infinite SP pots...

Again 1 single raid on 1 single difficulty that is completly different from everything else in the game means nothing. It's almost impossible to see how good ( or bad) is a class or build in party, even harder on raid party... so many intagibles. Some classes can make up for some other weaknesses and make it look better than it really is, you could compare a 12 man warlock LE shroud to a 12 furyshoters that could mean something but if you mix classs in the same party it's not really usefull to tell the true potential of X class. It's way more easy to see it in a solo or shortman situation when hes asked to perform "all aroud" not just a single specific task, like dps, trash clearing, CC etc.

Please post a video of a blaster warlock over-performing in today's 3 end-game raids on Legendary Elite Difficulty...please go out and find one...oh yes...they don't exists because blaster warlocks are terrible trash dps as soon as saves and hp become inflated...then instakilling, cc, high burst dps and big hitting meelee start taking over...

I don't know if thats over-performing or not but they seem to do it very easy. The only thing he needed was a rez-bot with him

[Vint]

What did I tell you guys...goalposts keep moving...

That is why I bowed out of the thread earlier. Some of these people just wont be happy until their gimp arse garbage builds are king of the hill.

[Zoriaan]

Yes. And warlocks were welcome despite not being the best DPS in there, DPs is not everything is a part of the equation



I don't know if thats over-performing or not but they seem to do it very easy. The only thing he needed was a rez-bot with him

Hahahaha...if you can read I recommend you read the comments in that video you posted...incase you are not able to I will copy it in here for you :

Update 29.0.2 duo completion of Legendary Elite Tempest spine, using pre-nerf LGS and no rune placement.\

Maybe you were not aware of this, maybe you were, but pre-nerf LGS was so broken you could freeze rednamed raid bosses and trip-earth weaps were ticking for absurd amounts of damage...you see those big acid dmg numbers in the video...those are from the pre-nerf LGS when it was so OP it was actually amusing

Also, if you bothered reading my entire post I said LE Tempest spine is laughably easy anyway...

[slarden]

What did I tell you guys...goalposts keep moving...

@ 2pc2 and bigerkykid...have you actually ever taken part in or successfully completed LE shroud? Not hard or normal..but legendary elite...we used to have a bi-weekly LE Shroud static group and warlocks were not really welcome, unless they were instakill builds, as they were poor dps and there are many other toons that bring much much more to the table in LE shroud than standard issue warlocks...

Using one quest (and an easy one at that) as an example of a warlock over-performing means nothing....LE slavers is hardy a challenging quest arc...the sad reality is today's long time power players will roll over any standard quest arc on top difficulty on any toons..only slight challenge remaining to them are the 3 LE raids, and LE Tempest is actually laughably easy as well...

Please post a video of a blaster warlock over-performing in today's 3 end-game raids on Legendary Elite Difficulty...please go out and find one...oh yes...they don't exists because blaster warlocks are terrible trash dps as soon as saves and hp become inflated...then instakilling, cc, high burst dps and big hitting meelee start taking over...

I can post videos of Pale Masters in 30 minute LE Shroud completions with 3:1 more kills than anyone in the group. If you believe this means Pale Masters are OP you clearly have no idea. Ill gladly sit back on my furyshotter and let the pale master instakill trash, because I know, as soon as it is time for the red names to show up, it will be my time to shine and the pale master can then relax...it is called group play,,,everyone brings something to the table and as a unit they complete the raid...maybe you should try it sometime...

Maybe 1st learn how to play this game on top-tier difficulty before making comments about supposed OP classes...

Again @2pc2 and bigerkykid....what do you have to say abut groups that roll over LE Shroud in 30 minutes with no warlocks in the party?? I have also been in LE Shroud groups with 4 or 5 blaster warlocks in the party....it was laughable how bad the portal and red named DPS was...unless you mass spam ruin/gruin and drink infinite SP pots...

This is very much my assessment as well. I use my blasting warlock more for quests than raids - it's a nice build for farming gear. I use barbarian for same purpose and in some content barbarian is better farmer than warlock. I also have a SE/TS warlock necromancer and deep gnome illusionist. Those are multiple times better at dealing with the trash in LE shroud. If the group doesn't need instakill I prefer to be on a martial build in LE Shroud - usually I mainly just bring my mechanic since my main 2 characters are currently both casters. I am working on gearing a thrower and will bring him as well.

There isn't much in the way of organized LE shrouds on Sarlona, but it's pugged a few times per week. So it's probably more chaotic and less scripted than you are used to. A blasting warlock is not a liability in there - but also not the ideal build. Same with tempest spine although as you say it's easy. both my instakill builds can solo everything up to the strength levers in LE Tempest spine easily - granted I use safe spot in triple boss area and the caster boss can kill me. No chance my blasting warlock can do that although I love my blasting warlock for certain content.

I am not going to bother responding to wizza's 10/16 acct. If someone doesn't want their comments associated with their real account it doesn't deserve a response.