Update 29: Level 30 Overview

[Brac]

overall I like.

couple of thoughts: why not make it 8,000,000 even? just saying.

would like the extra twist slot at 29, mainly because many players won't be spending time at cap. Cap is boring. Cap is well, the end. Hit the 8 million and reincarnate - that is the ticket. So the benefits of level cap increase seem to be all end loaded.

Just like epic greensteel. if eGS has a ml of 30 many will just go *meh* and not worry about it since they will be reincarnating straight away. (Make it ml:26 so much like original GS - good for reincarnation).

If there was an end game players would spend time at cap. Don't give the impression that it is acceptable that there is no reason to stay at cap. Let them create content with the purpose of people playing an end game.

[jalont]

If there was an end game players would spend time at cap. Don't give the impression that it is acceptable that there is no reason to stay at cap. Let them create content with the purpose of people playing an end game.

I'm not sure any sort of endgame is possible in DDO as it currently stands. Any whiff of challenge, and the people crying for an endgame become enraged, meaning endgame will just be like what we have now. Easy pack to farm until the next one comes. I'm not sure "endgame" is something people truly want, even if they say they do.

[Qhualor]

Nothing stands out that I might have a problem with here.

[Wulverine]

I'm not sure any sort of endgame is possible in DDO as it currently stands. Any whiff of challenge, and the people crying for an endgame become enraged, meaning endgame will just be like what we have now. Easy pack to farm until the next one comes. I'm not sure "endgame" is something people truly want, even if they say they do.

The people who want a proper endgame are not the ones to start crying about how something is too difficult when it is offered to them.
There's a lot of misinformation about this topic because some people incorrectly get labeled as endgamers (imo)

[Dragonlover333]

So the new twist slot disappears and reappears as you TR and return to 30. Say a character isn't an epic completionist, so they only have 3 slots, and then reaches 30, giving them the 4th. At some point they do become epic completionist, which means that while they are level 30, they have 5 slots. My question is: is the slot that comes and goes permanently the 4th? As in, is it possible to end up in a situation where you have access to 4 slots for most of the epic levels, with the last one costing 5 points to unlock because of the order you achieved level 30 and epic completionist?

[FranOhmsford]

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Epic XP Curve

We're changing the Epic XP curve! The average amount of XP required per level (on average) is staying exactly where it is, but the "curve" is now entirely flattened to be the same XP requirements for each Epic level.

• Total requirements for level 30: Neither we nor most players wanted to see level 30 requiring ~10 million XP. That just seemed like too much, especially in comparison to today. We're landing at 8,250,000, which is reasonable for two more levels after 6,600,000.
• Level 28 is the same: Under the old curve, you needed 6,600,000 XP for level 28, and that's still true. This also required an average of 825,000 XP per level (6,600,000 / 8), which is what we've flattened every level to require, including past level 28.
• Why flatten the XP curve?
  
  • It makes sense for characters to spend similar amounts of play time at each level, rather than new levels coming slower and slower over time. For comparison, consider the old Heroic 3rd life XP requirements and levels 18-20. While that's a different case overall (from 1-20), we want to get away from that feeling that the last few levels are just so much harder.
  • XP per epic quest doesn't increase much with increased level, which takes away from one reason to increase XP requirements over time.
  • Unlike the normal "start" of an XP curve, there's no great reason for designers to rush characters through the early Epic levels. That's not where most of your abilities come from, either from a power perspective or "cool new things to use" perspective. By the time a character is epic they've got lots to do, and Epic Destinies are on a separate track. Given that, it's largely nicer to space the "dings" of gaining a level out more - yes, they come slower early on, but you never reach that large gap at high levels where it seems to take forever to get those final levels. (Players may remember the old Heroic 3rd life XP curve being somethign like that at level 18/19.)
  • Based on quest and XP distribution, it makes sense for the lower levels to require as much XP as higher levels. Though we've relaxed a lot of "restrictions" on epic questing, many players do still play quests around their character level, and/or in increasing order.
  
  
• Existing Characters after the change: Similar to when we updated the Heroic XP requirements, existing characters would lose neither XP nor levels when this change goes live. For instance, if you have 800,000 XP the day before U29 launches, you'll be level 22 with 800,000 XP. After U29, you'll still be level 22 with 800,000 XP - you wont revert back to level 20, even though a new character reaching epic levels would only be level 20 with 800,000 XP. That character would need to reach 2,475,000 XP to reach level 23 (like any new character), and the XP bar won't begin filling up until you reach 1,650,000 XP (the new normal requirement for your current level).
• Bank Note: If you are "banking" an epic level before Update 29, you may want to take that level before the update goes live. Depending where you are on the curve this may get you to that level much sooner than otherwise.

Level	Old Requirement	New Requirement
20	0	0
21	300,000	825,000
22	750,000	1,650,000
23	1,350,000	2,475,000
24	2,100,000	3,300,000
25	3,000,000	4,125,000
26	4,050,000	4,950,000
27	5,250,000	5,775,000
28	6,600,000	6,600,000
29	8,100,000 (old curve if unchanged)	7,425,000
30	9,750,000 (old curve if unchanged)	8,250,000

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We'll have some more details to share in the near future, including specifics on some feats, but please keep comments on those specifics to those threads.

Thanks for reading. If you have general thoughts on the structure of Feats with new levels, or Twists of Fate and Fate Points, or the XP curve/flat line, etc., let us know!

8 Million XP is frankly ridiculous!

For those who've already got their E-Destinies and E-TRs done it may sound ok but for those who haven't it's BRUTAL!

800,000 for Lvl 21?
OK I know I've stated on multiple occasions that the current xp for 20-21 is too low but talk about overreacting!
This is going to require ALL Base Lvl 17-20 quests/Raids {incl. Dreaming Dark and Tower of Despair} to have their Base XP DOUBLED! Otherwise players hitting 20 are going to simply ignore them in favour of running EN VoN3/Spies/Wiz King 2x each!
And Epic Snitch, Partycrashers, A Small Problem, Big Top, Tharashk Arena, Prisoner, Lords of Dust, Spinner of Shadows, Bargain of Blood, Storm the Beaches, Black Loch, Tide Turns, The Last Stand, Claw of Vulkoor, Fathom the Depths and Into the Deep will ALL need massive Boosts to their Base XP too {On ALL difficulties!}!

Adding another 1.650.000 xp to the number needed by players at end-game also makes the Base XP for newer high level Epic Quests even worse than it currently is {and it's currently BAD with a Capital BAD!}.


The very least you could do is to make E-TR {OK not I-TR} only require the 6mil Karma in a Sphere rather than both that AND hitting XP Cap!
Yes this would be a smaller requirement than for those who've already done all their E-TRs but it will allow newer and more Casual Players a small chance to play a little catch up!




P.S. This is yet another nail in the coffins of alts!

[Atremus]

I like the flat curve.

The "big" XP at 20 just means I take my guildies into challenges in House C or out in ES to get over that hurdle. Nice to have a reason to run those challenges.

[jalont]

8 Million XP is frankly ridiculous!

For those who've already got their E-Destinies and E-TRs done it may sound ok but for those who haven't it's BRUTAL!

800,000 for Lvl 21?
OK I know I've stated on multiple occasions that the current xp for 20-21 is too low but talk about overreacting!
This is going to require ALL Base Lvl 17-20 quests/Raids {incl. Dreaming Dark and Tower of Despair} to have their Base XP DOUBLED! Otherwise players hitting 20 are going to simply ignore them in favour of running EN VoN3/Spies/Wiz King 2x each!
And Epic Snitch, Partycrashers, A Small Problem, Big Top, Tharashk Arena, Prisoner, Lords of Dust, Spinner of Shadows, Bargain of Blood, Storm the Beaches, Black Loch, Tide Turns, The Last Stand, Claw of Vulkoor, Fathom the Depths and Into the Deep will ALL need massive Boosts to their Base XP too {On ALL difficulties!}!

Adding another 1.650.000 xp to the number needed by players at end-game also makes the Base XP for newer high level Epic Quests even worse than it currently is {and it's currently BAD with a Capital BAD!}.


The very least you could do is to make E-TR {OK not I-TR} only require the 6mil Karma in a Sphere rather than both that AND hitting XP Cap!
Yes this would be a smaller requirement than for those who've already done all their E-TRs but it will allow newer and more Casual Players a small chance to play a little catch up!

Honestly, I think you may need to find a more efficient way to level through epics. I don't foresee this change changing anything I do in early epics. I mean, 28-30 is going to take some fine-tuning, but I will run everything else the same... and that won't be running a single quest on EN (really? why? EH is literally just as quick and offers more xp) or running any heroic quests in epic.

[Anaximandroz]

I do not like the flat XP requirements. More time spent in the weak and boring low epic levels, with weak gear.

More fun to spend more time at higher levels with all the good gear I have there.

This. And Why not only 8 million (each ED need only 2 million to cap, still have space to add +1 ED)?

[Cordovan]

*snip*
One thing missing from the missive above: for planning purposes, an approximate date of implementation would be good to know. I've already started TR'ing my 28-level chars, but that's just me.

This will be for Update 29, currently expected to arrive before the end of the year.

[Drwaz99]

I don't like the much, much higher amounts at lower epic levels when I am weak. They will drag on and it inevitably will cause a spike in EN "dailies" for people until the reach 23-25. I'd much rather do a bit more work near the top end with all the good gear I've spent way more time trying to acquire. You are also going to punish with "extreme prejudice" the casual and new player this way.

Between this and the legendary raid timers, I'm not sure who you are listening to, but they aren't giving you good ideas. (actually it's quite easy to see. Most notably forums posters and PC members who agree with everything you say. Here's a hint: they are leading you in the wrong direction.)

[DANTEIL]

A first blush I think the XP changes will be harder on the casual player if you go with a flat curve.

I want to think about it some more but that jumped out at me.

As a casual player this was exactly my first thought... to get to Level 21 it will take as much as it now does to get to Level 23+. I am a very slow leveler, and that just seems brutal. Yes, I realize the curve flattens out with each higher level, but this is not appealing to me at all.

[Vargouille]

So the new twist slot disappears and reappears as you TR and return to 30. Say a character isn't an epic completionist, so they only have 3 slots, and then reaches 30, giving them the 4th. At some point they do become epic completionist, which means that while they are level 30, they have 5 slots. My question is: is the slot that comes and goes permanently the 4th? As in, is it possible to end up in a situation where you have access to 4 slots for most of the epic levels, with the last one costing 5 points to unlock because of the order you achieved level 30 and epic completionist?

You never unlock a particular slot. You only gain +1 to your "Number of Twists of Fate" statistic.

If you already have four, the 5th is going to cost 5 points to unlock. Doesn't matter what order you've done things in.

For most players, who are reincarnating and have Epic Completionist, they will have 4 slots for Epic and a 5th that costs 5 points upon reaching Legendary (level 30).

[FranOhmsford]

Honestly, I think you may need to find a more efficient way to level through epics. I don't foresee this change changing anything I do in early epics. I mean, 28-30 is going to take some fine-tuning, but I will run everything else the same... and that won't be running a single quest on EN (really? why? EH is literally just as quick and offers more xp) or running any heroic quests in epic.

EH may be just as quick for you - I'm gonna guess that you're perfectly capable of running EE anyway - But it would take me at least half as long again to solo EH VoN 3 as it does to solo EN!
And then there's the fact that for most EHs I'd have to wait with an LFM up in the vain hope of getting anyone to join it whereas EN I can start and finish even if no-one joins me!

EEs are simply far too hard to be made a requirement for everyone and the amount of XP the Devs are talking about pretty much does just that!

I'll tell you now that there's no way I'm going to be running EE Amrath, Vale or Orchard quests unless I'm already CAPPED and probably not even then until I've got every destiny AND every E-TR done!

My monk with 4 Epic Past Lives at Lvl 20 did fine in EE Loch/Beaches and Tide the other day IN A GROUP but yesterday having taken Lvl 21 I needed to get an EE BoB done to finish the Saga and NO-ONE joined so I had to solo it - It took me 6 Deaths, 3 RE-ENTRIES and over 40 MINUTES and I got just 6k XP from it upon completion!

[Ykt]

many players won't be spending time at cap.

How do you know?

I have 12 level 28 characters and never ETR'd.

[FranOhmsford]

For most players, who are reincarnating and have Epic Completionist,

You really think MOST players have Epic Completionist?

No wonder the numbers you're talking about are so BRUTAL!

Those few players on each server who have Epic Completionist won't be bothered at all by these changes - Can you please think of the rest of us for a change rather than catering exclusively to the UBER-ELITE!

[Propane]

With the increase to the XP at the lower levels - please give us the option to reset the explorer / slayer XP for a ETR.

Getting to LV 23 & LV 25 are some big gear unlocking points - taking longer to get to those levels will be painful - adding back the explorer / slayer XP will help some.

I know some people like keeping there SAGA rewords for the next life = gives them a boost to staring the way back to LV 23. Don't mess that up.

Either make it a person to talk to / a clicky in your pack or something...

[Vargouille]

You really think MOST players have Epic Completionist?

Nope. Nothing of the sort. You are entirely misreading what I was trying to say.

I gave an example in order to try to answer someone else's question. Those were the presumptions for that example, which otherwise would not make any sense. Not an assumption of reality.

[Demsac]

Can you put epic feats in that normal feat at 30..?

[Wanesa]

I am ok with flat XP curve. You have to count with EDs. First life toon starts to build first ED at level 20. He will have 3rd ED level on 21th character level. So there is a lot of fun from advancing during level 20. After capping ED at level 5, he will need aprx 160kXP to reach level 22.

TRed toon with many EDs is currently very powerful at level 20, he can run harder quests and gain more XPs.