Update 29: Level 30 Overview

[EllisDee37]

8,250,000

I lobbied for 7.5 million, but 8.25 is close enough. Fair play.

Boy, that sure is a lotta extra feats!

[mraz]

im ok with the xp changes but... if you could add a lil something on lvl 22 and 23 that would be great.
cause more then 1,5 mil. for only +2 on skills is kinda meh...
other then that i like the idea

[Vargouille]

I'll read it all properly shortly but re the above: i really like this approach, please consider revisiting the 'dead' epic character levels (22, 23, 25 basically) and using this 'get slot/points' mechanic there too (but spread the 5 points you're adding at L29 and 30 across that range - put a +1 fate point at 22 23 25 29 and 30).

Interesting.

[kemetka]

You really think MOST players have Epic Completionist?

they know its a minority, it was just a answer to a question

No wonder the numbers you're talking about are so BRUTAL!

what? early stages yea it will take a wee bit longer, but thats part of the fun, people need to stop complaining that TRing is a grind, and start playing the game that was created for them, doing the off teh wall side stuff that they always gloss over, go have a romp through the slayer areas for the funsies. I'm willing to bet there is a great deal of this game that most players have either never seen, or simply forgot about. Nostalgia questing can be quite fun.

Those few players on each server who have Epic Completionist won't be bothered at all by these changes

true, i wont, not on my main character anyway, but thats the point, this game is great for the fact that there literally is no end game, you can take your same charcter and keep playing them over and over until the game literally dies out, instead of being forced to keep a character your super invested in at cap level to run the same stuff repeatedly.

Alternatively you can make an alt > see what i did there :P < and play through all shiny and new. And while most everyone has them, i'm willing to bet their arnt a great many players on any server who wish their alts the best of luck and let them live of random loot gen and no ship buffs like the game was so long ago.

If you want brutality, make a new character, dont join a guild or ever get guild buffs, rely on random loot generation and that characters own money only, and play permdeath style. This is what I do with all my toons, and the ones that are level 20+ i look forward to seeing if they can survive all the way to their first epic TR.

Can you please think of the rest of us for a change rather than catering exclusively to the UBER-ELITE!

uh... they did, they are looking at a proposed reduced xp chart, and honestly if I were to grind, REALLY grind, i could have 28-30 completed in 3 hours tops, 2 if its a good group.

add to this, that there is so much to do in epics, that typically ( on my uber stupid toon ) to get from 20 - 28 as it stands currently doing all the sagas out in eveningstar on elite at level with bravery, thats most of the entire epic life right there after you turn the sagas in for xp gems.

[Kalaxia]

Total requirements for level 30: Neither we nor most players wanted to see level 30 requiring ~10 million XP. That just seemed like too much, especially in comparison to today. We're landing at 8,250,000, which is reasonable for two more levels after 6,600,000.

•Epic Reincarnation and Iconic Reincarnation will require being level 30 after Update 29.

To be honest, it's a huge mistake to increase the time for epic reincarnations after they've been this way for 2 years now.

You should really consider one of the following:
A> Allow people to reincarnate at 28
B> Allow people to reincarnate as soon as their destiny sphere is at 6m karma
C> Rebalance the XP curve to 6.6m for 20 to 30
D> Buff epic dungeon XP (I would say roughly half of them are way too low compared to others to begin with. Which is why people grind the same dungeons over and over.)

Personally, I would choose A or B. It's simple. It's straight-forward. It doesn't throw a wrench in people's time to ER.

If people want to level cap to 30, requiring extra XP makes sense. I get that. But it makes no sense to increase the time to reincarnate, after it's been this way for 2 years. Things like this tend to drive away newer players, and cause vets to give up where they left off.

If anything, MMO's should be reducing time for older character development mechanics.. not increasing it. If you want to make the game more difficult/challenging... add in that new difficulty mode. But don't add extra time for existing character development. Character development is probably one of the biggest things in DDO, and reincarnations play a big part of that.

[EllisDee37]

How will epic levels effect grouping XP now that the spread is 10 levels? Specifically:

- What's the power leveling penalty level split, if any? Will a 20 get full xp in a group with a 30?
- What is the bravery mechanic for epic levels and quests? It doesn't work like in heroics, with a 2-level split.

[kemetka]

To be honest, it's a huge mistake to increase the time for epic reincarnations after they've been this way for 2 years now.

they stated this was coming though... for a while now, yet its now just becoming a big deal.

You should really consider one of the following:

A> Allow people to reincarnate at 28

they've already stated this isnt going to be the case, were beating a dead horse at this point

B> Allow people to reincarnate as soon as their destiny sphere is at 6m karma

they can > see heroic reincarnation < otherwise, its not working like that now, why would it work like that afterword, furthermore, one of the complaints against going to 30 is that it makes it more difficult for newer players ( not really, just a little long ) and is not fair for them when the people who got their EPL's already ( guilty ) did it at 28, well guess what changing it to this would be just as unfair to us, please skip on the dose of hypocrite in the morning.

C> Rebalance the XP curve to 6.6m for 20 to 30

a sensible solution to a degree, however doing it this way would basically make increasing the level cap arbitrary at best, in all likely hood not going to happen

D> Buff epic dungeon XP (I would say roughly half of them are way too low compared to others to begin with. Which is why people grind the same dungeons over and over.)

what? why? for what reason? EE spies ( and its been a while so i could be wrong ) is around 200k xp+ on its own, the first Estar chain on EE is about 500k, the saga that spans Lord of Dust all the way to Estar 3 chain ( 2 of them mind you ) is about 2 million xp run on EE with first time bonus. Then you've got the saga turn ins

now is everyone going to run it on EE, no, but i'd be willing to bet if you put up the lfm people would join it
"if you build it they will come "
will you die? maybe, but this is D&D death is a very real part of it, and so is raising the dead. So what if you die, it happens.

If people want to level cap to 30, requiring extra XP makes sense. I get that. But it makes no sense to increase the time to reincarnate, after it's been this way for 2 years. Things like this tend to drive away newer players, and cause vets to give up where they left off.

they havnt increased the time to TR, its still at max every 3 days, unless you have a bypass timer. and how exactly is this going to drive people away? that statement was senseless, thats like saying everytime wow comes out with a new expansion and raises the max level people leave cause "darnit im no longer max level" people leave cause they want to play new games > i.e. fallout 4 < not cause the developers give them more stuff to do. thats like getting mad cause you found easter eggs in your game.

If anything, MMO's should be reducing time for older character development mechanics.. not increasing it. If you want to make the game more difficult/challenging... add in that new difficulty mode. But don't add extra time for existing character development. Character development is probably one of the biggest things in DDO, and reincarnations play a big part of that.

so you want the time reduced for characters to get super powerful, and reduce the time for power creep to increase? isnt that one of the main things people are against?
new difficulty mode would be interesting.... hardcore mode that says your character is erased upon death? sign me up, will it happen, pfff please i doubt it. but theres your challenge.
no extra tim has been added for char development, timer still remains 3 days

[kemetka]

a questino about the fate points given at 29 and 30 though, are those permenant or just for that life? if for that life, i assume they are treated like a feat of some kind?

[golruul]

The TR cutoff should be level 28. I've mentioned this in the council with pretty good support and apparently you guys think differently.

Lets explore the reasoning then.

Adding grind for no good reason isn't my idea of a good time...

I agree. The typical time for me to ETR/ITR is 3-6 months and now it'll take a lot longer for no good reason. "Because the max level was raised" isn't a good reason to me.

Anyway, the staff weighed the feedback and decided to increase the XP to ETR/ITR. Ok, fine, that's their decision. I just cancelled my many-year subscription, though, as part of my feedback to them.

I'll probably still play as a free-to-play account from time to time, but I won't be a paying customer ever again.

[Erik_Loki]

The curve has to be redesigned to be 7.000.000, max 7.500.000

8.250.000 is too high

[phalaeo]

I see more bank space needed.

Yes.

Did you guys at Turbine hear that? More bank space!

[Jiirix]

Looks like we will spend far more time at the low epic levels. Can we get a trade in for all seals, shards and scrolls like we have for the sand scrolls please?
I really would like to use some of the old epic level 20 stuff, but even after playing DDO for more than 5 years I have hardly any "seal, shard, scroll" sets complete. You would need X seals/shards/srolls from the right pack to turn them in and still will have to grind for the base item. Compared to ALL the other epic items that just drop in one piece that won't be over the top, right?

[Hafeal]

Well, well, well. 30 finally on the horizon for real.

8.25 million xp? It was inevitable, I assume the plan is that all new content in the foreseeable future will be built for mid-to-high end Epic. To me this means Heroic content, and a much needed new starter area, remain on the back burner for the foreseeable future. Or will there be some room for both?

I agree with Fran on 1 thing - this xp grind continues to favor players who focus on 1 or 2 characters. There is hardly incentive to run a stable of alts with this xp curve, particularly and especially if you are a casual player.

Heroic XP, especially anything from 15 on up, needs such a major boost. Will there be any tweaking to allow 18-22s to run together in content without having to worry about it being at the 20+ Epic XP range? I just see the 17-20 level range being even more of a complete let down now. Once you hit 20, there will be absolutely NO incentive to run anything that isn't getting Epic XP scales.

I can also see people wanting to run Bravery Streaks more often in Epic now because of this. Too bad. BB should go. Is there a plan to replace BB with a better incentivized XP bonus? Please tell me yes.

[Blastyswa]

As you may know, we're planning to raise the level cap to level 30 with Update 29. Here's some initial details!

---

New Character Features Gained from Leveling Up to 30

Here's our current plan for what characters receive from gaining levels 29 and 30.

Feature	Level
+2 Fate Points	29
Tier 3 Epic Destiny Feat Slot (3 Destinies capped)	29
+3 Fate Points	30
+1 Twist of Fate Slot	30
"Normal" Feat Slot	30
Legendary Feat Slot	30

Notes:

• Number of Twist Slots: This is +1 compared to whatever you currently have. You might or might not have gotten an Epic Completionist slot yet. The 4th slot you have costs 4 Fate Points to unlock tier 1, the 5th slot costs 5 points to unlock, regardless of what order you gain your extra slots. If you drop below level 29/30 (Reincarnation), then you lose those Fate Points and slot until you level up again.
• Reincarnation Flagging: According to our tests, if you flag for Reincarnation before Update 29 (make it so Character Select shows the big REINCARNATE button), you will be able to reincarnate after Update 29 without any further changes. You won't have to gain additional XP or levels, etc.
• The Normal feat slot is similar to the slot you get at 27 - it can hold lower level feats that you can usually get (aka: not Epic Destiny feats).
• The Epic Destiny Feat slot can hold lower tier Epic Destiny feats that you qualify for, or new options only available here at level 29. Like other Epic Destiny Feat slots, this cannot hold other kinds of feats.
• The Legendary Feat slot can only be filled from a specific list of new feats.
• Epic Reincarnation and Iconic Reincarnation will require being level 30 after Update 29.

---

Epic XP Curve

We're changing the Epic XP curve! The average amount of XP required per level (on average) is staying exactly where it is, but the "curve" is now entirely flattened to be the same XP requirements for each Epic level.

• Total requirements for level 30: Neither we nor most players wanted to see level 30 requiring ~10 million XP. That just seemed like too much, especially in comparison to today. We're landing at 8,250,000, which is reasonable for two more levels after 6,600,000.
• Level 28 is the same: Under the old curve, you needed 6,600,000 XP for level 28, and that's still true. This also required an average of 825,000 XP per level (6,600,000 / 8), which is what we've flattened every level to require, including past level 28.
• Why flatten the XP curve?
  
  • It makes sense for characters to spend similar amounts of play time at each level, rather than new levels coming slower and slower over time. For comparison, consider the old Heroic 3rd life XP requirements and levels 18-20. While that's a different case overall (from 1-20), we want to get away from that feeling that the last few levels are just so much harder.
  • XP per epic quest doesn't increase much with increased level, which takes away from one reason to increase XP requirements over time.
  • Unlike the normal "start" of an XP curve, there's no great reason for designers to rush characters through the early Epic levels. That's not where most of your abilities come from, either from a power perspective or "cool new things to use" perspective. By the time a character is epic they've got lots to do, and Epic Destinies are on a separate track. Given that, it's largely nicer to space the "dings" of gaining a level out more - yes, they come slower early on, but you never reach that large gap at high levels where it seems to take forever to get those final levels. (Players may remember the old Heroic 3rd life XP curve being somethign like that at level 18/19.)
  • Based on quest and XP distribution, it makes sense for the lower levels to require as much XP as higher levels. Though we've relaxed a lot of "restrictions" on epic questing, many players do still play quests around their character level, and/or in increasing order.
  
  
• Existing Characters after the change: Similar to when we updated the Heroic XP requirements, existing characters would lose neither XP nor levels when this change goes live. For instance, if you have 800,000 XP the day before U29 launches, you'll be level 22 with 800,000 XP. After U29, you'll still be level 22 with 800,000 XP - you wont revert back to level 20, even though a new character reaching epic levels would only be level 20 with 800,000 XP. That character would need to reach 2,475,000 XP to reach level 23 (like any new character), and the XP bar won't begin filling up until you reach 1,650,000 XP (the new normal requirement for your current level).
• Bank Note: If you are "banking" an epic level before Update 29, you may want to take that level before the update goes live. Depending where you are on the curve this may get you to that level much sooner than otherwise.

Level	Old Requirement	New Requirement
20	0	0
21	300,000	825,000
22	750,000	1,650,000
23	1,350,000	2,475,000
24	2,100,000	3,300,000
25	3,000,000	4,125,000
26	4,050,000	4,950,000
27	5,250,000	5,775,000
28	6,600,000	6,600,000
29	8,100,000 (old curve if unchanged)	7,425,000
30	9,750,000 (old curve if unchanged)	8,250,000

---

We'll have some more details to share in the near future, including specifics on some feats, but please keep comments on those specifics to those threads.

Thanks for reading. If you have general thoughts on the structure of Feats with new levels, or Twists of Fate and Fate Points, or the XP curve/flat line, etc., let us know!

Personally I think that the xp curve would do well with a little less flattening, and probably a little less experience. At level 20-24 I personally usually just run ENx2 quests myself, and then begin switching to EE sagas and newer quests at 25+ because of how much more powerful my character is at those levels. I think that subtracting a bit of xp from levels 20-23 or so and adding it in at level 29-30 (Or removing it entirely) would make the first few epic levels a lot less punishing. This will particularly affect casual players and players who try and play without farming quests with better xp/minute, because quests obviously take longer to complete the less power you have to use on them.

Aside from the xp, I like the rest of the changes. Adding in Fate Points at level 29-30 seems like a really great place to put them, and I'm looking forward to the new build options that will be presented with 3 extra feats. Big thank you for not making the xp incredibly insane, even if it is still a wee bit high.

[peng]

At one point the devs proposed moving caster levels from epic destinies to epic levels. Has that been permanently shelved? Or is that still in the works? I know a lot of cha-based arcane casters live in exalted because it's their best dc destiny, but that hurts caster levels, particularly if we can now uncap several spells.

[Blivit]

Level	Old Requirement	New Requirement
20	0	0
21	300,000	825,000
22	750,000	1,650,000
23	1,350,000	2,475,000
24	2,100,000	3,300,000
25	3,000,000	4,125,000
26	4,050,000	4,950,000
27	5,250,000	5,775,000
28	6,600,000	6,600,000
29	8,100,000 (old curve if unchanged)	7,425,000
30	9,750,000 (old curve if unchanged)	8,250,000

---

I am not happy with the new flat XP curves. It will take more XP to get to every single level than before, except for lvl 28. This will means it will take me longer to get to lvl 28 than before. Why? Because I'll be getting my better weapons at lvl 24 (CITW Antipode) and lvl 26 (Tier 2 Thunderforged wraps) later, which means I'll be killing things slower, and therefore progressing through my ETR slower. It's bad enough that ETRs are going to take a lot longer due to needing 8.25 million XP now, but it's rubbing salt in the wound to slow the rate of level progression, thus delaying the use of higher DPS weapons, which in turn lowers the overall rate of XP progression.

I understand the logic behind flattening the XP curve, and it makes good sense to me, but I am not happy with the impact this will have on the speed at which I ETR (12 ETRs to get an extra twist is going to take a LONG time already). An alternative would be to leave them as they currently are on live, then fudge in lvls 29 and 30 with XP requirements that makes no logical sense. This is unappealing and probably a bad idea. The only other alternative I can think of that might be reasonable would be to keep the 8.25 million cap at 8.25, but adjust the non-linear curve so that the lower levels (at least up to 24, where Tier 1 Thunderforged and maxed out CITW weapons become available, maybe 26 for Tier 2) are closer to their current values? This would slow down later level progression due to higher XP requirements in the higher levels, but I'd be getting vastly higher DPS weapons sooner, and thus it would speed up the overall time of the ETR over what is proposed. I am thinking that I would rather have slower higher level progression, as much of a slog as that would feel like, in exchange for faster overall ETR times. Even though higher levels would be more of a slog, the overall slog of the entire ETR would be less.

[Standal]

Rewards for level 29 and 30 look pretty decent. XP curve is very disappointing. Getting to level 23, 25, and 26 are big deals for me. I was looking forward to making some T3 Thunderforged and actually running some quests for XP with it. The flat curve maximizes my time when my character is weak and not fun to play. Thanks for that.

Why not just drop the XP for level 28 to 1.2 mil over level 27, then 1.2 mil for level for 29 and 30. 6.45 mil for 28, 7.65 mil for 29, and 8.85 for 30. Then I at least get to play with all my toys for a while before I TR. If you're really committed to 8.25 mil, no one will complain if you drop level 27 a bit.

[Karadon_II]

Considering I was expecting that the 9,750,000 XP requirement before ITR/ER was a done deal when level 30 would come into play, colour me quite happy with the new values. Also taking into account the pain it still is to get from 19 to 20, I always found it a bit daft that one got from 20 to 21 in the time it would take to eat dinner, so the balancing of XP between the levels is logical.

From reading the thread I do think there is a lack of 'fun factor' as well as a gear issue for some people [myself included] for the levels 20 to 22/23 now that we'll be there for longer. The Eveningstar commendation gear is fine entry-level stuff but I think there is an opportunity now to address the old L20 epic gear.

This person has the measure of it:

Can we get a trade in for all seals, shards and scrolls like we have for the sand scrolls please?

Yes please indeed. As we'll be in the lower end of epics for longer, much of this older gear could now be more useful again. The old epic gear represented significant power back in the day but has been practically obsolete for some time. I reckon these could be used more at 20-22 now that those levels can't be 'skipped' as much. You never know - people may even have 'fun' running those quests again while waiting to get to 23.

To facilitate this further I would also call for either:
[a] a significant increase the drop rate of these old seals, shards and scrolls components, because the current drop rates are not 'fun' IMHO,
and/or
[b] guaranteed appearences of random seals, shards, scrolls in the end rewards list for the relevant associated quests or end of chains/raids.

Just my 2c.

[sjbb87]

B> Allow people to reincarnate as soon as their destiny sphere is at 6m karma

Maybe you get 1 past life per 6m karma at level 30
this is good...

[Faltout]

I can't comment much on the fate points and twist slots. Allowing more abilities to cross over destinies limits destiny diversity. I mean, if you find 5 most powerful destiny abilities and twist them, you'll always be using the same stuff no matter which destiny you're in. On the other hand, it adds more power from EDs and I guess that was needed with a level raise. Adding and removing the twist slot upon reincarnation, not that smooth but if it works then all good...
Maybe you could also reset (or the option to reset) EDs upon such reincarnations instead of still requiring plat to do it.

Yes to raising the ER and IR point. Those types of reincarnation always mentioned they work at level cap and there were explicit dev posts about the cap going up along with the reincarnations. And it doesn't make sense to not be at level cap.

The xp curve should not be totally flat. Agree with the other posters that it should be flattened, but not totally. Reason: If you play quests at level (respecting that the level of the quest means something... which it doesn't if you compare MotU quests to old epic level 20 packs) then at level 20 you can do the level 18-20 heroic quests and some level 20 epic quests. At level 21 you can do level 20s and 21s. At level 25, a range of 20-25 quests.
Since quests do get an xp growth as level raises and you get to play from more quests, the curve shouldn't be totally flat.