Update 29: Level 30 Overview

[Vargouille]

Can you put epic feats in that normal feat at 30..?

Yes. Epic feats aren't special except for their level requirement (and we grouped them into a heading in the UI because boy there's a lot of feats to sort through).

[Propane]

You really think MOST players have Epic Completionist?

No wonder the numbers you're talking about are so BRUTAL!

Those few players on each server who have Epic Completionist won't be bothered at all by these changes - Can you please think of the rest of us for a change rather than catering exclusively to the UBER-ELITE!

Agreed - the game should encourage more alts for players - not less. I have a large stable of alts - only 2 Epic past lives, most of my alts are first or second heroic lifers!

More alts --> more questing at different level ranges, different loot requirements --> more questing and AH action, more DDO store spending for alt specific items (bags, cosmetics, etc..)

[Wulverine]

Can you put epic feats in that normal feat at 30..?

Yes. It functions the same as the feat slot you get at lvl27. So you can still take, for instance, Ruin (a lvl27 or higher feat) at level 30.

The Normal feat slot is similar to the slot you get at 27 - it can hold lower level feats that you can usually get (aka: not Epic Destiny feats).

Edit: Outninja'd by Vargouille!

[Apollos713]

Fine with the changes and flattened curve. Leveling up in epics is really just in the EDs anyways, and once those are capped things outside of EE become pretty easy.

[Saekee]

my main concern is power creep with players getting more buffs at levels 29-30. I would not add fate points or a legendary feat; maybe just a third destiny at best.

[Talam]

Not as bad as I thought it would be. However, I agree that giving us the 5th slot at level 30 won't help much, as most won't stay 30 but will simply ETR again, unless of course there's going to be some reason to stay at cap, which will in turn destroy the rest of the levels. What about giving it at level 28 or 29?

[slarden]

Delayed use of CITW weapons is the only thing I will really notice about the change to xp leveling. I swap to my CITW weapon(s) at 23 and my TF weapon(s) at 26 and other than that I don't bother with many gear changes.

I can live with it, but like the existing low xp requirements of the early levels for weapon swap purposes.

Everything else looks great!

[FranOhmsford]

Agreed - the game should encourage more alts for players - not less. I have a large stable of alts - only 2 Epic past lives, most of my alts are first or second heroic lifers!

More alts --> more questing at different level ranges, different loot requirements --> more questing and AH action, more DDO store spending for alt specific items (bags, cosmetics, etc..)

If I only had one character it would probably be Heroic AND Epic Completionist by now with +7 tomes on all stats and maxed out gear Or more likely by far I'd have quit the game years ago!


As things stand however the most TRs I've done on any single character is 4 {5th Life currently} and said character hasn't got a single Epic Past Life!
Meanwhile the most E-TRs I've done on a single character is also 4 and said character has NEVER TRd! {Will do so for the first time as soon as I've ran 2 quests from EE Storm Horns again}.

I have every inventory slot bought on MULTIPLE characters!
I have every bank slot bought on MULTIPLE characters!
I have 100 slots in my Shared Bank and over 2 million plat also in there as well as at least 12 pages full at all times in the Crafting Bank!
My Guild on Cannith is Lvl 110 and 90%+ of the renown earned was earned by ME! {Yes I also bought a Kraken!}.

If I only had one character I can guarantee you that I would have spent a heck of a lot less money on this game than I have done!

These changes won't stop me from playing ALL my Characters - It will just cut down the time I spend on each one and therefore make my ever reaching Completionist on any one of them an impossibility!

[zehnvhex]

Personally if we're going to spend roughly 8x as much time in the 20-26 level range then before I'd like to see the min lvl on most, if not all epic items have a min lvl of either 20, 25 or 30.

[Chi_Ryu]

1. I don't really like the flattening curve idea... I appreciate the fact that it should be harder to achieve the upper levels. "Flattening" might be okay, but definitely not "Flat".

Totally agreed; I strongly dislike the flat scale. It would be nice to get to 23 quicker - it'll be almost twice as much XP when update 30 hits, and will last for shortly less time (assuming obsolescence by lv 26)

2. I just don't see nearly enough fate points being available to make decent use of a fourth twist slot...and definitely not a fifth one.

I currently run 4/3/1/1 or 4/2/2/1 today. I could do 4/3/1/1/1 by level 30 on my main, given the extra fate points.

[PsychoBlonde]

It sounds okayish to me, but there's going to be a HUGE cutout in power level between levels 28 and 30.

The reason why this worries me is that the TR train means that people tend to be fairly well distributed among the range of levels available. If you enjoy grouping at all, the sudden power cutout is going to either make it utterly miserable to find people to group with (because they're low level and severely underpowered) or going to make it pretty miserable for other people to run with YOU (because you're way past them). This has been the case every time the cap has risen since I started playing (when it was 20).

I'm not saying "don't do it"--cool new stuff is cool.

[sirgog]

Flat curve is a huge improvement.

There's a reasonable amount of content from 20 to 23 that you don't get to play because those levels go past so fast, and the gear from them (mostly ML 20) gets obsolete so quickly.

Now there's a use to getting ML 20 gear.

This does mean it is now time to overhaul the XP for the 17-19 heroic quests though.

[SableShadow]

I see more bank space needed.

[Tahkhesis]

I like it. Thank you.

Question: can we have a Korthos alternative? I think I could run it blind folded and drunk at this point, and if the TR/ETR train is now much longer, it would def mix stuff up enough to make it worth it.

[Thar]

Epic XP Curve[/B]

We're changing the Epic XP curve! The average amount of XP required per level (on average) is staying exactly where it is, but the "curve" is now entirely flattened to be the same XP requirements for each Epic level.

• Total requirements for level 30: Neither we nor most players wanted to see level 30 requiring ~10 million XP. That just seemed like too much, especially in comparison to today. We're landing at 8,250,000, which is reasonable for two more levels after 6,600,000.
• Level 28 is the same: Under the old curve, you needed 6,600,000 XP for level 28, and that's still true. This also required an average of 825,000 XP per level (6,600,000 / 8), which is what we've flattened every level to require, including past level 28.
• Why flatten the XP curve?
  
  • It makes sense for characters to spend similar amounts of play time at each level, rather than new levels coming slower and slower over time. For comparison, consider the old Heroic 3rd life XP requirements and levels 18-20. While that's a different case overall (from 1-20), we want to get away from that feeling that the last few levels are just so much harder.
  • XP per epic quest doesn't increase much with increased level, which takes away from one reason to increase XP requirements over time.
  • Unlike the normal "start" of an XP curve, there's no great reason for designers to rush characters through the early Epic levels. That's not where most of your abilities come from, either from a power perspective or "cool new things to use" perspective. By the time a character is epic they've got lots to do, and Epic Destinies are on a separate track. Given that, it's largely nicer to space the "dings" of gaining a level out more - yes, they come slower early on, but you never reach that large gap at high levels where it seems to take forever to get those final levels. (Players may remember the old Heroic 3rd life XP curve being somethign like that at level 18/19.)
  • Based on quest and XP distribution, it makes sense for the lower levels to require as much XP as higher levels. Though we've relaxed a lot of "restrictions" on epic questing, many players do still play quests around their character level, and/or in increasing order.
  
  
• Existing Characters after the change: Similar to when we updated the Heroic XP requirements, existing characters would lose neither XP nor levels when this change goes live. For instance, if you have 800,000 XP the day before U29 launches, you'll be level 22 with 800,000 XP. After U29, you'll still be level 22 with 800,000 XP - you wont revert back to level 20, even though a new character reaching epic levels would only be level 20 with 800,000 XP. That character would need to reach 2,475,000 XP to reach level 23 (like any new character), and the XP bar won't begin filling up until you reach 1,650,000 XP (the new normal requirement for your current level).
• Bank Note: If you are "banking" an epic level before Update 29, you may want to take that level before the update goes live. Depending where you are on the curve this may get you to that level much sooner than otherwise.

Level	Old Requirement	New Requirement
20	0	0
21	300,000	825,000
22	750,000	1,650,000
23	1,350,000	2,475,000
24	2,100,000	3,300,000
25	3,000,000	4,125,000
26	4,050,000	4,950,000
27	5,250,000	5,775,000
28	6,600,000	6,600,000
29	8,100,000 (old curve if unchanged)	7,425,000
30	9,750,000 (old curve if unchanged)	8,250,000

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We'll have some more details to share in the near future, including specifics on some feats, but please keep comments on those specifics to those threads.

Thanks for reading. If you have general thoughts on the structure of Feats with new levels, or Twists of Fate and Fate Points, or the XP curve/flat line, etc., let us know!

SOOOO... your making the least enjoyable part of the epic grind (20-22) where you don't have a lot of the epic gear from motd or weapons from citw longer. The part where we do not have our gear so it takes longer to kill (with champions). At least before you could skip this undesireable time with saga xp. Now we're forced to live in the mess of quests that were pre motd. These are frequently unbalanced. So what will happen? more von3/wiz king farming. yes this is fun (not).

The old progression was fine. it got a little long at 26/27 but you expect that as you grind through those level quests. I don't currently feel on a new TR or life that I am forced to repeat content until getting close to cap. Now i'll be unable to do higher level content so i'll have to repeat the low end garbage quests or do the xp loop quests which bore me.

I know you have your reasons but you fail to meet the customer needs for these low levels. it's not fun as you have no real epic abillities. You have no real epic gear. It's a floundering till 23 when you hopefully have citw weapons. it's only bareable on a new HTR where you get first time and bravery bonus to get through it as fast as possible.

[Theolin]

XP thought

I understand flattening it, I just don't think I want it totally flat, what about something more like, I know that moves 28 down a little, don't have the time to try to fix it at the moment but the idea ... slight increase in xp requirements for each level but not much & nothing over 1mil for a level

level	xp needed	total xp
20	0	0
21	600000	600000
22	650000	1250000
23	700000	1950000
24	750000	2700000
25	800000	3500000
26	850000	4350000
27	900000	5250000
28	950000	6200000
29	1000000	7200000
30	1000000	8200000

[Qhualor]

Not as bad as I thought it would be. However, I agree that giving us the 5th slot at level 30 won't help much, as most won't stay 30 but will simply ETR again, unless of course there's going to be some reason to stay at cap, which will in turn destroy the rest of the levels. What about giving it at level 28 or 29?

this wont be useful for those that rinse and repeat reincarnations. its no different than right now where the level 28 feat selections and the level 28 gear aren't useful for those kinds of players. when new content comes out, I see a lot of players that do hang out at cap or continue progressing to cap while focusing on that new content until they get what they want. after that, its back to the grind with them. the way I see it, if you are used to not having it than you will continue to be used to not having it. not having the 5th slot shouldn't be an issue really. with legendary content coming, there should be more to do along with content that is already being played at cap now.

[Thar]

As you may know, we're planning to raise the level cap to level 30 with Update 29. Here's some initial details!

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New Character Features Gained from Leveling Up to 30

Here's our current plan for what characters receive from gaining levels 29 and 30.

Feature	Level
+2 Fate Points	29
Tier 3 Epic Destiny Feat Slot (3 Destinies capped)	29
+3 Fate Points	30
+1 Twist of Fate Slot	30
"Normal" Feat Slot	30
Legendary Feat Slot	30

Notes:

• Number of Twist Slots: This is +1 compared to whatever you currently have. You might or might not have gotten an Epic Completionist slot yet. The 4th slot you have costs 4 Fate Points to unlock tier 1, the 5th slot costs 5 points to unlock, regardless of what order you gain your extra slots. If you drop below level 29/30 (Reincarnation), then you lose those Fate Points and slot until you level up again.
• Reincarnation Flagging: According to our tests, if you flag for Reincarnation before Update 29 (make it so Character Select shows the big REINCARNATE button), you will be able to reincarnate after Update 29 without any further changes. You won't have to gain additional XP or levels, etc.
• The Normal feat slot is similar to the slot you get at 27 - it can hold lower level feats that you can usually get (aka: not Epic Destiny feats).
• The Epic Destiny Feat slot can hold lower tier Epic Destiny feats that you qualify for, or new options only available here at level 29. Like other Epic Destiny Feat slots, this cannot hold other kinds of feats.
• The Legendary Feat slot can only be filled from a specific list of new feats.
• Epic Reincarnation and Iconic Reincarnation will require being level 30 after Update 29.

---

We'll have some more details to share in the near future, including specifics on some feats, but please keep comments on those specifics to those threads.

Thanks for reading. If you have general thoughts on the structure of Feats with new levels, or Twists of Fate and Fate Points, or the XP curve/flat line, etc., let us know!

These seem like fine end game benefits. Not overwhelming but you get SOMETHING for each level progression. Looks fine so far pending feat lists.

[Qhualor]

Flat curve is a huge improvement.

There's a reasonable amount of content from 20 to 23 that you don't get to play because those levels go past so fast, and the gear from them (mostly ML 20) gets obsolete so quickly.

Now there's a use to getting ML 20 gear.

This does mean it is now time to overhaul the XP for the 17-19 heroic quests though.

this is what I am thinking too. content that tends to get skipped over may see a little more replayability.

[sjbb87]

As you may know, we're planning to raise the level cap to level 30 with Update 29. Here's some initial details!

Level	Old Requirement	New Requirement
20	0	0
21	300,000	825,000
22	750,000	1,650,000
23	1,350,000	2,475,000
24	2,100,000	3,300,000
25	3,000,000	4,125,000
26	4,050,000	4,950,000
27	5,250,000	5,775,000
28	6,600,000	6,600,000
29	8,100,000 (old curve if unchanged)	7,425,000
30	9,750,000 (old curve if unchanged)	8,250,000

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ok....
I liked the majority ...
But the new xp curve this very painful ...
And the current took us 29-30 this very high ....
It can make an average between the two ??

playing epic levels ... just gets more fun when you take the level 26, before it is kinda boring