Ranger: Tempest Changes

[MrWindupBird]

Dance of death cool down works fine as is. Longer cool down also has the problem of wasting the ability when it misses (TWF hotbox problem)

[davmuzl]

First thanks for the explanasion at the start, it's really nice to hear what the goals of these changes are exactly.

I think there should be some form of crit bonuses in tempest and/or DWS. Ideally in the same as swashbucklers, so the different kinds of weapons are balanced. This would also mean, that they can be compared better to other classes and there wouldn't be a problem with Paladins. The bonus shouldn't be higher than +1 multiplier for scimitars.

For the duration/CD of activated abilities I would prefer when all were like action boosts. 20sec duration 30sec CD. The next acceptable duration would be at about 5 mins+.

[davmuzl]

Longer cool down also has the problem of wasting the ability when it misses (TWF hotbox problem)

Didn't think of that, but that's definitly imporant.

[mikarddo]

Paladin has never been op.

Op is a 12 monk 6 warlock 2 pali splash avatar of nature build, with over 10k dps and unlimited spirits.

Would you mind explaining how that build is getting unlimited spirits (as in not running out ever), or is that simply a gross exageration?

[DevilYouKnow]

Dance of death cool down works fine as is. Longer cool down also has the problem of wasting the ability when it misses (TWF hotbox problem)

This. You have to waste 2 ap per rank after all. It should not be gimp.

[Grailhawk]

When I think of a Tempest ranger – I think of a Vitamixer on steroids – a mob blender.

I was thinking of suggesting adding Whirlwind (fixed version of course) at level 12, but we have a lot of clickies already…

How about stance (on / off) with a % chance to proc a Whirlwind attack (or super Whirlwind) with every attack/offhand attack, increasing the percentage with each core? (maybe mix a dodge % for X sec on each proc)

IMO if people are looking to add more AoE Damage to Tempest (or TWFing in general) the best thing to do is to add on crit AoE damage (in a stance so you can turn it off when needed)

Suggestion:
Storm Dancer: (2 AP) Stance: Absorb 15% of Electrical damage and On Critical Hit dealing damage to the target and all enemies near it for 3d6 Electrical damage on critical hits to . This damage scales 100% with Melee Power.

Storm Tempest: (2 AP) Passive. Upgrades Storm Dancer Electrical damage absorption to 30% (instead of 15%). Upgrades On Critical Hit effect to deal +6d6 Electrical damage (instead of 3d6).

[Grailhawk]

Would you mind explaining how that build is getting unlimited spirits (as in not running out ever), or is that simply a gross exageration?

Auras. Not sure on the specifics and not sure it its 100% but pretty sure its close. Tilmore has a thread some where Eth has an explanation some where else.

[EllisDee37]

General question for the audience:
Which of these do you prefer for something like Dance of Death?

1. 10s duration, 15s cooldown
2. 20s duration, 30s cooldown
3. 40s duration, 60s cooldown
4. 2m duration, 3m cooldown
5. 2m duration, once per rest.

10s duration, 15s cooldown. This is more dps than the others because you have more control for starting the 10-second clock when it does the most good. If I start the 3m cooldown at the first fight, there will likely be multiple fights during the 1-minute downtime where I get not benefit. By contrast, with a 15s cooldown I can use it at the start of virtually every fight, with cooldown expiring between fights.

I also would like to re-iterate my desire to see A Thousand Cuts be the clear best single-target dps, Dance of Death the clear best AoE dps, and have them both share a cooldown. The longer the cooldown is the less viable that design choice would be.

In any case, a 90-second cooldown for a 15-second ability is worthless to me, regardless what happens in that 15 seconds. Consider this: I will never, ever use a 90-second cooldown ability more than 8 times between any two shrines. I will have 8 action boosts thanks to twisting in Extra Action Boosts and taking the tempest Haste Boost. Is the design of Thousand Cuts right now better than 30% Haste Boost? Because I can and do get 30% Haste Boost for 20 seconds with a cooldown of 30 seconds 8 times per shrine. Thousand Cuts requires me to take 12 minutes between shrines just to catch up to my Tier 2 haste boost, and quite frankly it strikes me as less dps than Haste Boost.

[edana]

These Tempest tree change benefit more for character using ranger as splash class (free twf feats, ram spell, access to enh trees), changes in the vertical tree benefit all cross class but does not make a duel weapon fighting ranger unique for its class.

Buff to the core (12 level and up) might help, add faster attack speed to the current proposed changes (+10% melee alacrity at level 18, +15% melee alacrity at level 20 capstone? or 15/20?) This will boost sustain dps, it helps on burst dps ( more chance to crit and double strike proc ). This makes pure or close to pure DWF ranger a class of its own.

My 2 cents

[Grailhawk]

I also would like to re-iterate my desire to see A Thousand Cuts be the clear best single-target dps, Dance of Death the clear best AoE dps, and have them both share a cooldown. The longer the cooldown is the less viable that design choice would be.

I'm really not a fan of putting DoD and 1k Cuts on the same timer.

In any case, a 90-second cooldown for a 15-second ability is worthless to me, regardless what happens in that 15 seconds. Consider this: I will never, ever use a 90-second cooldown ability more than 8 times between any two shrines. I will have 8 action boosts thanks to twisting in Extra Action Boosts and taking the tempest Haste Boost. Is the design of Thousand Cuts right now better than 30% Haste Boost? Because I can and do get 30% Haste Boost for 20 seconds with a cooldown of 30 seconds 8 times per shrine. Thousand Cuts requires me to take 12 minutes between shrines just to catch up to my Tier 2 haste boost, and quite frankly it strikes me as less dps than Haste Boost.

IMO the design of 1k Cuts is to be a melee manyshot if its that good the 15/90 is appropriate.

I know in the past you have said you don't use manyshot as much as you probably should on your tempest, there a good number of us who do though. I would be far more interested in seeing 1k Cuts share a cooldown with Manyshot then with DoD.

[Qhualor]

The only problem is DC based spells is, well, DC. So I preffer not to put more WIS DC based spell on ranger spell list, is nonsense.

lets compare. all 3 are Transmutation spells. 2 are Strength checks while 1 is reflex saves.

Entangled

Primal magic awakens plants and vines to grasp at the caster's enemies. Entangled creatures suffer a 90% penalty to movement speed, a 50% attack speed penalty, and a -1 penalty to attack rolls, AC and Reflex. A successful Reflex save negates this effect. Entangled creatures may leave the affected area to escape its effects, or attempt to make a Strength check every 2 seconds to negate. Area of effect fire spells will destroy these vines and free any entangled creatures. Incorporeal creatures and oozes are naturally immune. Fire elementals and other fire creatures are immune because they burn through the plants.

Evards

Conjures a zone filled with many rubbery black tentacles for 10 seconds. While inside the zone, enemies are Slowed (no save). Every 2 seconds, enemies within the zone must make a successful Strength save or become Entangled by the tentacles for 10 seconds. All enemies within the zone take 1d4 Bludgeoning damage per caster level (Scales with Spell Power) every 2 seconds as the tentacles try and grab them, and an additional 1d4 per caster level if Entangled. A successful Fortitude save reduces the damage by half. Tentacles may continue to hold enemies after the zone fades, though they will not deal damage.

change Entangled to no save and lasts 10 seconds. if AOE doesn't affect Evards, than neither should Entangle. even without investment, Evards works way better than Entangle as is and its more or less the same spell. to make Entangle work better than sometimes, I wouldn't mind taking Spell Focus Transmutation. this would be a nice boost to ranger. look at how often Warlocks use Evards.

Spike Growth

Creates hard and pointed vegetation that injures the feet and legs of enemies that pass over it, slowing movement and causing 1d4 piercing damage every 2 seconds. A successful Reflex save negates the slow effect.

needs a huge boost to be worth spending the sp and using a spell slot. it needs to scale somehow or MP or something needs to increase the 1d4 damage.

Snare

Creates a snare that when triggered entangles a single enemy. An Entangled creature may attempt to make a Strength check every 2 seconds to escape. Incorporeal creatures, and Oozes cannot be caught in the snare.

the DC needs to be raised considerably to be even worth using sp or taking up a spell slot. weak.

after the changes years ago attempting to boost the ranger spells and when they got Magic Fang, I went out to Seering Heights on my level 18 ranger/2 fighter and tested out these spells. even 4 damage to mobs kiting them in and out of the bush took awhile to kill them. Snare didn't trap a single mob. Magic Fang I always thought was a bad joke by the devs. I always used it on the Artys dogs just because it didn't do squat for ranger Summon Natures Ally. 3 spells, the only 3 spells that rangers have for CC or damage, and are too weak to use and justify a spell slot even with any kind of investment. upgrading these spells would go a long way at improving a ranger overall.

[Cordovan]

Ranger Tempest is now available for preview on Lamannia.

[Darkrunn]

Ranger Tempest is now available for preview on Lamannia.

So I guess that means Lamannia is now up? Or has it been up and I've just not been aware?

[Postumus]

Can we discuss the bottom line?
It is my contention that a ranger should have more DPS than a paladin.

Yes. For melee based classes, highest to lowest DPS should go something like Barbarian>Fighter/Monk>Ranger/Rogue>Paladin.

That's not to say that Paladin should be nerfed back to what it used to be, but damage output should be inverse to self-healing except, possibly, for premium classes.

[Thar]

Ranger Tempest is now available for preview on Lamannia.

is the character copy broke? I cant get the page to progress from the spinning circle?

[Qhualor]

Yes. For melee based classes, highest to lowest DPS should go something like Barbarian>Fighter/Monk>Ranger/Rogue>Paladin.

that's a simplistic way to look at it, but ranger FE should come out ahead of paladin in most cases, but a paladin should come out ahead if they are fighting evil mobs. a barbarian should come out ahead in short straight up dps fights, but a ranger should pull ahead if its FE and due to self healing if its a long fight. not really the case in DDO where barbs have access to self healing comparable to a rangers.

[Feithlin]

A bit late maybe but:

General question for the audience:
Which of these do you prefer for something like Dance of Death?

1. 10s duration, 15s cooldown
2. 20s duration, 30s cooldown
3. 40s duration, 60s cooldown
4. 2m duration, 3m cooldown
5. 2m duration, once per rest.

My personal preference is 10s effect / 15s cooldown
Second personal preference would be 20 / 30.

I don't like cooldowns above 30s unless they are emergency buttons or super-moments-on-boss-only abilities.

[Grailhawk]

Yes. For melee based classes, highest to lowest DPS should go something like Barbarian>Fighter/Monk>Ranger/Rogue>Paladin.

That's an opinion and you are entitled to it but there are others that are equally justifiable.

Barbarian = Rogue > Fighter > Ranger >= Monk >= Paladin

Is my opinion.

And given the changes to the game where Armor is now actually a useful think I could be talked into lowering Fighter below Ranger. And against favored enemies Rangers should be equal to top tier.

[Lonnbeimnech]

That's an opinion and you are entitled to it but there are others that are equally justifiable.

Barbarian = Rogue > Fighter > Ranger >= Monk >= Paladin

Is my opinion.

And given the changes to the game where Armor is now actually a useful think I could be talked into lowering Fighter below Ranger. And against favored enemies Rangers should be equal to top tier.

Before barbarians became the go to self healing class I might agree. But now it should look more like

Fighter > rogue > monk > ranger > paladin > barbarian

[sjbb87]

Dev
Pls update here the Tempest enhancements from Release Notes