Rogue - Mechanic (and Traps) Proposed Changes

[Propane]

Are they talking about elemental damage traps, or spell traps?

Spell traps are really good with the Disable Device based DC - maybe too good. Elemental traps are a nice opener, especially if you lay multiple traps. I don't think we want rogues to be able to lay a small mine field that removes tons of hit points from epic elite level creatures, but we will keep an eye on it.

Sev~

I took my LV 26 Pure Rogue Assassin (DD 72) in to EGH and set up some traps... was doing 275-285 a hit... They were not making there saves (tried with gear and dmg was half)

I am a little disappointed, I was expecting the trap zone to persist for a while (hitting each mob a few times) or hitting at least 2-3 times harder..

Our traps are a shadow of the traps we find in game at the same level- and we have a lot less HP than MOBs.

Love the updated set up time - the time to drop is good - the 8 sec delay between setting more traps is long enough...

[Mellkor]

Dex based rogues will have less trap dc as well.

yes, BUT a dex based build can still easily hit no fail skill values. INT based just doesnt have to put points into it at all to hit no fail skill values (at end game). I have a INT based rogue and only put points into it because there was nothing else to put the points into



So in the end this is a moot point.

[Fnordian]

Are they talking about elemental damage traps, or spell traps?

Spell traps are really good with the Disable Device based DC - maybe too good. Elemental traps are a nice opener, especially if you lay multiple traps. I don't think we want rogues to be able to lay a small mine field that removes tons of hit points from epic elite level creatures, but we will keep an eye on it.

Sev~

Hmm...why not? Compared to most weapons and many abilities, traps are a limited resource as you can only create and carry so many at once and they do consume ingredients to make as well as taking extra time to prepare. They also make fights more interesting as they require at least a little bit of tactical thought and party co-operation to get the most out of them. And they make a Rogue a really valuable group addition to some very dangerous content. It's a good thing when the addition of certain class-specific abilities to a party starts to matter again.

[apep1412]

Are they talking about elemental damage traps, or spell traps?

Spell traps are really good with the Disable Device based DC - maybe too good. Elemental traps are a nice opener, especially if you lay multiple traps. I don't think we want rogues to be able to lay a small mine field that removes tons of hit points from epic elite level creatures, but we will keep an eye on it.

Sev~

Disregarding elemental traps for a moment, there are several spell traps that have targeting issues. I'll try to get around to writing out a bug report on all the specific types that don't work sometime this weekend. For now, most of the types that are based off of single-target spells do not target any nearby enemies when triggered. Hold Monster, Blind, and one of the fear spells had this issue.

I tested this in the ToEE courtyard with roughly 6-8 enemies lured onto a minefield of 5 spell traps. They were lured onto the minefield by using a noisemaker trap to ensure that they were walking slowly enough to be in touch-range when the traps triggered. None of the enemies displayed a save symbol above their head or a blue splash animation to indicate that they were immune.

Otto's Resistible Dance was one exception to this, and is actually able to target multiple enemies if they are close enough.

[slarden]

FYI we couldn't make an Assassin build that hit top rogue DPS without using Know the Angles. Dex builds fell behind without it.

Sev~

I assume the dex builds you tested with took KTA for 8 AP as many dex assassins will do - since int is a strong secondary stat for rogues and the damage boost is worth it. I won't be changing my gear, the only thing in my build that will change is selecting dex instead of int where it is a choice. This means my int drops by

7 level ups
4 starting point
8 enchancements
4 ED
-----------------------
23 Total

Change in int modifier: 12

Change in KTA damage: 6

I lose 6 damage from KTA but gain no mercy, haste boost and other things from Acrobat tree.

I was previously taking

racial tree: 6 (2 int but with 2 wasted AP to get it)
assassin tree: 41 (4 int - same as a dex build)
acrobat tree: 8 (0 int)
Harper Tree: 25 (4 int + KTA + 6 MP + Agent of Good)

Now with shadowdodge I can save 2 AP and skip the racial tree and get my dex from harper tree

racial tree: 0
Assassin tree: 41 ( 4 dex and nothing else changes)
acrobat tree: 25 (5 dex + no mercy + haste boost)
Harper tree: 14 (2 dex + KTA + 5 MP + Agent of Good)

I get 11 dex instead of 10 int. I lose 6 damage from KTA and 1 MP, but I gain haste boost and no mercy. I am not sure how my dps is going down. This doesn't count doublestrike and the other benefits. I see only upside here. I also have the option to get 2 dex from tumbling and 4 dex from tenser's as a consumable. The downside to int yugo pots is fairly rough so I didn't use those. There is no downside to dex pots so I will get +2 from that all the time. I wouldn't use the tensers scroll option often, but in difficult content where it is needed I certainly would take the 1 second to do it before an assassinate. Same with tumbling. This means my dex will be 2-4 higher than I would with an int build depending on whether I use the +4 dex necklace from haunted halls (+1 from enh, + 1 from necklace vs. int optic int +3, +2 from yugo pots). My assassinate is 2 higher and with tumbling and tenser's it is 5 higher for difficult content situationally.

I will also say if you make double strike in acrobat apply only to staffs, you should change lethality to apply to only daggers and kukris to be consistent. I don't think changing either is needed.

Overall I was able to eliminated 6 wasted AP (4 from harper tree and 2 from racial tree) and I gained 1 feat which for me would translate to a level 27 epic feat.

[Delacroix21]

We've finished our testing of Mechanic, comparing both repeating crossbows and non-repeating crossbows to a variety of builds. We have some changes coming soon.

Rogue

Sneak Attack damage now scales with 150% Melee Power or Ranged Power (whichever is higher). Previous: 100% Melee Power or Ranged Power.


Rogue - Mechanic


Tier One

Sharpshooter: Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2 and add one Sneak Attack die.


Tier Two

Sharpshooter: Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2 and add one Sneak Attack die.


Tier Three

Sharpshooter: Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2 and add one Sneak Attack die.


Tier Four

Sharpshooter: Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2 and add one Sneak Attack die.

Leg Shot: Requires level 4. Previous: Required level 12.

Tier Five

Sharpshooter: +3 additional damage and one Sneak Attack die with all non-repeating crossbows. Now requires level 12.

Sniper: Non-repeating crossbows increase this to 3 Sneak Attack dice and also gain +2(W).

Mechanical Reloader: Fixed a bug where the +20% Ranged Alacrity with non-repeating crossbows wasn't working.

Sev~

You also left out= Time Bomb. The DC is way to low for EE, please make the DC Disable Device instead of this rogue level + int shenanigans. =)

[UurlockYgmeov]

Are they talking about elemental damage traps, or spell traps?

Spell traps are really good with the Disable Device based DC - maybe too good. Elemental traps are a nice opener, especially if you lay multiple traps. I don't think we want rogues to be able to lay a small mine field that removes tons of hit points from epic elite level creatures, but we will keep an eye on it.

Sev~

"300 dmg for a ML27 trap is pretty weak and isnt doing much to EE mobs. That falls under the not viable caregory imo.With the current DD=DC for magic traps I still have yet to really give them a solid run."

[Magil]

Mechanical Reloader: Fixed a bug where the +20% Ranged Alacrity with non-repeating crossbows wasn't working.

Sev~

All of this sounds really good, but does this mean that alacrity was only up +10%, rather than +20% the entire time? I noticed a boost in speed, but I never thought of checking just how much faster it was.

___
On a side note, I am still tinkering with it, but I seem to be having some issues with Time Bomb. Roughly 20%-40% of the time when I place it, the charge goes off, but nothing takes damage. I am wondering if this is due to placement, the visual, etc...?

Is anyone else having trouble with it?

PS: I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, or even tested it. However, grenades benefit from the returning enhancement in the Mechanic tree. Is this working as intended?

[flagged]

You also left out= Time Bomb. The DC is way to low for EE, please make the DC Disable Device instead of this rogue level + int shenanigans. =)

I think you mean 1/2 rogue level + int shenanigans mister!

[flagged]

Sev,

I have been playing my capped mechanic since update was released and two other splash mechanics, I Tr'ed all at the onset of the Update and have Tr'ed since as well, I burned a couple of stones in some cases and Ground out from Lev1-28 in others.

Bugs/problems

-The +5 meters for each core is bugged.

-I have taken the blindness in Rad II and Thunderforged weapons to fill the gap but blindness granted sneak attack damage is very inconsistent, and levs 1-12 still have no ranged sneak option.

-The time bomb is still very buggy, it often blocks movement and is not giving the Disable Device DC that was supposed to take effect it is still using 1/2 rogue lev to reach the knockdown DC, the most important aspect of the ability.

-The elemental traps are useless, the amount of damage is of no impact at epic levels, but I don't really see how that can be fixed.



Suggestions:

-The mechanic needs a bluff shot of some type, it doesn't need to do anything other than bluff. Almost all sneak attack damage is lost. Deception is a random proc, a Sniper cannot count on it.

-Targeting sights: Int modifier can be used on Bows as well as crossbows, repeaters, thrown weapons.

-Expert builder: the mechanic can use his skill to adjust the fit and flexibility of his armor, allowing him to evade in Medium armor.

-Expert builder: +1 to threat range of bows, repeaters, non-repeaters, and thrown weapons.

-Capstone: the cooldown changed to 2 mins and the +2 to dex and int to be changed to +4 int.


Final Note:

With the original +1 threat range bump removed, the class is still entirely subpar to any Paladin/mech mixed build as well as Barb/mech, Pally/Arti, Fighter/mech.
This has become clearer and clearer as I continued to extensively test the changes since the update update went live. If your aim was to create a substantially weaker "flavor" class you have succeeded. It is especially hindered in epic.

[gwonbush]

Sev,

I have been playing my capped mechanic since update was released and two other splash mechanics, I Tr'ed all at the onset of the Update and have Tr'ed since as well, I burned a couple of stones in some cases and Ground out from Lev1-28 in others.

Bugs/problems

-The +5 meters for each core is bugged.

-I have taken the blindness in Rad II and Thunderforged weapons to fill the gap but blindness granted sneak attack damage is very inconsistent, and levs 1-12 still have no ranged sneak option.

-The time bomb is still very buggy, it often blocks movement and is not giving the Disable Device DC that was supposed to take effect it is still using 1/2 rogue lev to reach the knockdown DC, the most important aspect of the ability.

-The elemental traps are useless, the amount of damage is of no impact at epic levels, but I don't really see how that can be fixed.



Suggestions:

-The mechanic needs a bluff shot of some type, it doesn't need to do anything other than bluff. Almost all sneak attack damage is lost. Deception is a random proc, a Sniper cannot count on it.

-Targeting sights: Int modifier can be used on Bows as well as crossbows, repeaters, thrown weapons.

-Expert builder: the mechanic can use his skill to adjust the fit and flexibility of his armor, allowing him to evade in Medium armor.

-Expert builder: +1 to threat range of bows, repeaters, non-repeaters, and thrown weapons.

-Capstone: the cooldown changed to 2 mins and the +2 to dex and int to be changed to +4 int.


Final Note:

With the original +1 threat range bump removed, the class is still entirely subpar to any Paladin/mech mixed build as well as Barb/mech, Pally/Arti, Fighter/mech.
This has become clearer and clearer as I continued to extensively test the changes since the update update went live. If your aim was to create a substantially weaker "flavor" class you have succeeded. It is especially hindered in epic.

Something I found out while playing with a repeater- using the bluff skill doesn't prevent you from firing your xbow, though the animation gets a bit funky due to your hand movements.

I also believe that adding the crit range to mechanic would be too powerful, especially considering the change to Lethality in the Assassin tree. If you take both level 18 cores, you get +2 crit multiplier with repeaters and +3 with non-repeaters. And you want to throw additional crit range in there? A normal repeater gets turned into a 17-20/x4 (60% extra damage) weapon, which is roughly equal to a paladin's 15-20/x3 (60% extra damage), though it falls a bit behind on crit procs (though the higher multiplier means it is better in DC). With a great crossbow, Paladin doesn't even compare. A great crossbow is a 15-20/x5 (120% extra damage) weapon, compared to the Paladin's 13-20/x3 (80% extra damage). And again, this becomes even more apparent in DC, where the great xbow in the hands of a mechanic becomes a 13-20/x5 weapon for a whopping 160% extra base damage from crits compared to Paladin at 100%.

[Tesrali]

Sev,

I have been playing my capped mechanic...

How are the mechanic cores bugged? I am getting sneak attack at quite a long distance and all I have is those to extend it. I am running a mechanic on live atm.

I agree time bomb is buggy. So much so that I dropped it.

I absolutely disagree that repeaters are underpowered on live atm. You can actually get the +1 threat you're looking for... ...just be creative.
W/o respect to crits I am maxing out at 720 first number and 320 sneak attack damage on bosses in ToEE. That is massive damage, although I am completely twerked out.

A bluff type shot would be overpowered. Please don't. We already have sniper shot in deepwood which is the most appealing thing about that tree.

[Vanhooger]

Thanks! I love the changes, so I can try again a gxbow, and probably now is going to be a very good option!

Repeater do not need a buff, they are very strong now!

[CThruTheEgo]

FYI we couldn't make an Assassin build that hit top rogue DPS without using Know the Angles. Dex builds fell behind without it.

Sev~

It would help us understand the validity of these tests and the viability of the builds you use for testing if we had some details on the builds and how they were tested. All this mysteriousness surrounding the dps tests you all do doesn't help support the claims that are made as a result of them, especially when they don't match what we see on live or our theory crafting.

[ArkoHighStar]

We've finished our testing of Mechanic, comparing both repeating crossbows and non-repeating crossbows to a variety of builds. We have some changes coming soon.

Rogue

Sneak Attack damage now scales with 150% Melee Power or Ranged Power (whichever is higher). Previous: 100% Melee Power or Ranged Power.


Rogue - Mechanic


Tier One

Sharpshooter: Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2 and add one Sneak Attack die.


Tier Two

Sharpshooter: Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2 and add one Sneak Attack die.


Tier Three

Sharpshooter: Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2 and add one Sneak Attack die.


Tier Four

Sharpshooter: Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2 and add one Sneak Attack die.

Leg Shot: Requires level 4. Previous: Required level 12.

Tier Five

Sharpshooter: +3 additional damage and one Sneak Attack die with all non-repeating crossbows. Now requires level 12.

Sniper: Non-repeating crossbows increase this to 3 Sneak Attack dice and also gain +2(W).

Mechanical Reloader: Fixed a bug where the +20% Ranged Alacrity with non-repeating crossbows wasn't working.

Sev~

How about applying this to bows as well?

[Delacroix21]

Do you think we can get this on Lammania for a few days before it goes Live? Not to test it as you said it is finished, but rather so we can have an opportunity to try out the new changes before we reroll our characters on live.


Also does the assassin +1 crit multi stack with the mechanic +crit multi?


Lastly, please make time bombs DC based of disable device, it is currently impossible to reach a decent EE DC with it.

[ToastyFred]

How about applying this to bows as well?

Bows aren't "mechanical" enough so, NO.

[ZhenBuYaoShi]

I assume the dex builds you tested with took KTA for 8 AP as many dex assassins will do - since int is a strong secondary stat for rogues and the damage boost is worth it. I won't be changing my gear, the only thing in my build that will change is selecting dex instead of int where it is a choice. This means my int drops by

7 level ups
4 starting point
8 enchancements
4 ED
-----------------------
23 Total

Change in int modifier: 12

Change in KTA damage: 6

I lose 6 damage from KTA but gain no mercy, haste boost and other things from Acrobat tree.

I was previously taking

racial tree: 6 (2 int but with 2 wasted AP to get it)
assassin tree: 41 (4 int - same as a dex build)
acrobat tree: 8 (0 int)
Harper Tree: 25 (4 int + KTA + 6 MP + Agent of Good)

Now with shadowdodge I can save 2 AP and skip the racial tree and get my dex from harper tree

racial tree: 0
Assassin tree: 41 ( 4 dex and nothing else changes)
acrobat tree: 25 (5 dex + no mercy + haste boost)
Harper tree: 14 (2 dex + KTA + 5 MP + Agent of Good)

I get 11 dex instead of 10 int. I lose 6 damage from KTA and 1 MP, but I gain haste boost and no mercy. I am not sure how my dps is going down. This doesn't count doublestrike and the other benefits. I see only upside here. I also have the option to get 2 dex from tumbling and 4 dex from tenser's as a consumable. The downside to int yugo pots is fairly rough so I didn't use those. There is no downside to dex pots so I will get +2 from that all the time. I wouldn't use the tensers scroll option often, but in difficult content where it is needed I certainly would take the 1 second to do it before an assassinate. Same with tumbling. This means my dex will be 2-4 higher than I would with an int build depending on whether I use the +4 dex necklace from haunted halls (+1 from enh, + 1 from necklace vs. int optic int +3, +2 from yugo pots). My assassinate is 2 higher and with tumbling and tenser's it is 5 higher for difficult content situationally.

I will also say if you make double strike in acrobat apply only to staffs, you should change lethality to apply to only daggers and kukris to be consistent. I don't think changing either is needed.

Overall I was able to eliminated 6 wasted AP (4 from harper tree and 2 from racial tree) and I gained 1 feat which for me would translate to a level 27 epic feat.

Why is everyone freaking out so hard about Int based Rogues instead of Dex based Rogues? I almost always play Int based Rogues, and they've always done fine, and always are able to do EE traps with only 2 levels of Rogue splashed into my toon, can't imagine how it would be if I could put more Rogue in, but can't usually fit it on my toons. Now, we even have it better with the Harper tree that gives us Int to hit and Int to dmg, which completely solves all damage and attacking issues, and gives us every reason to max out Int over Dex. Sure, make Dex high, start with something like 14 or so, get Tomes of Quickness of Action, Get the best Dex gear you can get, but as far as stat points, and enhancement points go, they're all going into Int!

I honestly don't understand why all of the special attacks in the trees don't say use your Dex or Int modifier, because there are obviously two types of Rogues, Dex and Int based, so there should be the choice, and wherever possible, DC = Disable Device, for sure!

[ArkoHighStar]

Bows are "mechanical" enough so, NO.

how are they mechanical enough, why even add bows to mechanic if you are just going to favor crossbows with everything.

[flagged]

Something I found out while playing with a repeater- using the bluff skill doesn't prevent you from firing your xbow, though the animation gets a bit funky due to your hand movements.

You can use the bluff skill, but it doesn't take effect at that range.

I also believe that adding the crit range to mechanic would be too powerful, especially considering the change to Lethality in the Assassin tree. If you take both level 18 cores, you get +2 crit multiplier with repeaters and +3 with non-repeaters. And you want to throw additional crit range in there? A normal repeater gets turned into a 17-20/x4 (60% extra damage) weapon, which is roughly equal to a paladin's 15-20/x3 (60% extra damage), though it falls a bit behind on crit procs (though the higher multiplier means it is better in DC). With a great crossbow, Paladin doesn't even compare. A great crossbow is a 15-20/x5 (120% extra damage) weapon, compared to the Paladin's 13-20/x3 (80% extra damage). And again, this becomes even more apparent in DC, where the great xbow in the hands of a mechanic becomes a 13-20/x5 weapon for a whopping 160% extra base damage from crits compared to Paladin at 100%.

I have gone to the trouble to build two toons with the exact same gear and stats, One with Pally levels and one pure Mechanic. The Paladin out dps's the Mechanic by 28% static, 31% non-static targets.

I think your problem comes from underestimating the impact of threat range, saying "though it falls a bit behind on crit procs" illustrates this. Once past lev 21 the issue of crit threat range is of much greater importance than multiplier.