Rogue - Mechanic (and Traps) Proposed Changes

[HastyPudding]

how are they mechanical enough, why even add bows to mechanic if you are just going to favor crossbows with everything.

It adds more multiclass options.



I love these changes! I can't wait to see my mechanic's new DPS numbers. Right now he does okay with a great crossbow, and it's at least on-par with repeaters, if only just. This will make the great crossbow for pure(r) rogue mechanics an even better option.

[gwonbush]

You can use the bluff skill, but it doesn't take effect at that range.



I have gone to the trouble to build two toons with the exact same gear and stats, One with Pally levels and one pure Mechanic. The Paladin out dps's the Mechanic by 28% static, 31% non-static targets.

I think your problem comes from underestimating the impact of threat range, saying "though it falls a bit behind on crit procs" illustrates this. Once past lev 21 the issue of crit threat range is of much greater importance than multiplier.

Do note that I was comparing the proposed Lethality changes (that now won't apply) in addition to the current standings. +2 crit multi is roughly equal to +1 range and +1 multiplier. However, since Lethality won't work on xbows anymore, it's comparing 1 Multiplier to 1 range and one multiplier, clearly giving the edge to paladins with repeaters, though great xbows will remain interesting for mechanics.

[flagged]

How are the mechanic cores bugged? I am getting sneak attack at quite a long distance and all I have is those to extend it. I am running a mechanic on live atm.

use the Loc command the sneak attack fails 90 feet out, as opposed to 195 feet a pure Mechanic should be sneak attacking at.

I agree time bomb is buggy. So much so that I dropped it.

Too bad need testers to test man.

I absolutely disagree that repeaters are underpowered on live atm. You can actually get the +1 threat you're looking for... ...just be creative.

I think you will need to be specific here, if it is the Pally holy sword cast then switch that I have hear about, well that just reinforces my point that Pally continue to dominate Mechs. If it is otherwise please explain.

A bluff type shot would be overpowered. Please don't. We already have sniper shot in deepwood which is the most appealing thing about that tree.

No.

[Krumm]

Mechanical Reloader: Fixed a bug where the +20% Ranged Alacrity with non-repeating crossbows wasn't working.

Sev~

Sev,

Can you please check and confirm that +10% Ranged Alacrity for thrown weapon is working with "Mechanical Reloader"?
Currently, at least on the character info page, it's not showing the +10% (however it does feel like I am throwing slightly faster).

Thanks.

[flagged]

How about applying this to bows as well?

Yes. That was the Dev's proposal, and Sev even defended it in several posts. The execution failed and we need to remind the team to follow through on it. Otherwise the additions with bow that were implemented are pointless.

[flagged]

Also does the assassin +1 crit multi stack with the mechanic +crit multi?

Yes it would appear so, because the lev 18 assassin is a "insight" buff.

[ToastyFred]

Also does the assassin +1 crit multi stack with the mechanic +crit multi?

Well the Assassin one looks to be an Insight bonus and the Mechanic one on the live servers is a Competence bonus so my guess is, "yes."

[ToastyFred]

how are they mechanical enough, why even add bows to mechanic if you are just going to favor crossbows with everything.

I meant to say "Bows AREN'T mechanical enough"

I fixed my post.

[flagged]

+2 crit multi is roughly equal to +1 range and +1 multiplier.

This is probably the root of your problem, it's not the case. In fact in game-play and on paper the threat range rules. So much so the not only is +1 range and +1 multiplier more powerful than +2 multiplier, in fact just +1 range by itself is more powerful than +2 multiplier. Setting a side the fact that improved critical makes that +1 range actually +2, even without improved critical a +1 range will always trump +1 or +2 crit multiplier.

You have to proc a crit to even get started, multiplier is just the gravy not the mechanic.

This is why the team is handing out crit multipliers now instead of Crit threat range, it has so little impact compared to the crit threat range buff that came out during the past year. Clearly they are not going to give anymore Threat range buffs out. By handing out crit multipliers they can quiet the masses, without actually empowering the classes they do passes on from hear on out.

[slarden]

Why is everyone freaking out so hard about Int based Rogues instead of Dex based Rogues? I almost always play Int based Rogues, and they've always done fine, and always are able to do EE traps with only 2 levels of Rogue splashed into my toon, can't imagine how it would be if I could put more Rogue in, but can't usually fit it on my toons. Now, we even have it better with the Harper tree that gives us Int to hit and Int to dmg, which completely solves all damage and attacking issues, and gives us every reason to max out Int over Dex. Sure, make Dex high, start with something like 14 or so, get Tomes of Quickness of Action, Get the best Dex gear you can get, but as far as stat points, and enhancement points go, they're all going into Int!

I honestly don't understand why all of the special attacks in the trees don't say use your Dex or Int modifier, because there are obviously two types of Rogues, Dex and Int based, so there should be the choice, and wherever possible, DC = Disable Device, for sure!

A revamp to the assassin tree shouldn't require a change in primary stat to get the best out of all the changes. It feels like getting nibbled to death by a duck.

[jalont]

It feels like getting nibbled to death by a duck.

I... what?

[Archetype]

TRAPMAKING:

It's a great idea, but suffers too many technical and resource problems to be a viable addition to any playstyle right now. I've been testing them on my Rogue2/Wizzy18 Drow PaleTrapper, and I have found the following:

*My Crafted Trap DCs are very high, but this is meaningless if the traps never trigger or land properly. Mobs have a habit of slightly skirting the trap, even if they are chasing you with full aggro multiple times across the trapped area. And I don't mean 5-10 feet away, they go right up to the trap, do a little sidestep jig and run by, not triggering them at all. Very frustrating. I am an excellent kiter, but it is ridiculous how close I have to drag a group to a trap before it will do anything. I would suggest increasing the trap activation radius by quite a bit, unless mob AIs can be adjusted to not basically make a "running evasion maneuver" that they should really NOT be able to do while chasing a jumping, hasted, tumbling target at top speeds. They also have a tendency to run *around* a freshly-burst Web or Grease Crafted Trap area, more than their AI should allow.

*Another idea to help make Crafted Traps viable would be to add the ability to *remotely detonate* a placed trap, so that the user could time the explosion or spell burst effect. (And the tech is already in the game from the Blockade Buster quest in Lordsmarch plaza.) This would allow a skilled user to get the most out of emplaced Crafted Traps, and fit better with the theme of a Mechanic who uses Magical Tech to DPS and/or CC. Without this ability, there is a ridiculous amount of kiting needed to get mobs near a Trap Killzone. It would add a layer of tactical gameplay that would appeal to many players who don't want to just do "max DPS" as their only playstyle. And it would make DDO more fun! Traps are a unique feature of DDO, and the devs could really emphasize this with some changes to Crafted Traps to make them more viable.

*MAGICAL trap parts are currently too rare to cost as much as the other trapbuilding recipes. They don't drop often enough from a reliable source of Spellwards to be farmable. So a user's supply of Web, Grease, Ottos and other traps becomes an always-shrinking stockpile taking much scrounging to keep up on. In fact, the elemental trapmaking costs are also a bit high, especially if you are going to make Crafted Traps a part of your routine. Melle do not need to make and consume any doohickeys to do Sword DPS, and the Ranged and Spell Attack components (arrows and spell components) are obtained inexpensively from a variety of sources. I would suggest cutting the costs of the first component in each trap recipe (Magical or Elemental trap parts) at least in half. Mechanical trap parts and the Elemental Essences are readily available and are fine for costs.

*I agree with many previous posters that the AoE of a triggered Magical Trap is too small right now. Making stuff like Deep Slumber or Slow traps is pointless, as they never land. Often the mob triggers it in a run-across and the effect hits right after it leaves the area. They don't even get a save, it just doesn't hit. Currently this is a dead-end area of Crafted Trapmaking and needs to be addressed to be playable.

*The damage of the Elemental Traps is also too low. One idea would be to make Crafted Elemental Traps whose DPS output is based on the SPELLPOWER of the one that crafted them. So each trap would have a quality rating, adding that spellpower to the elemental damage when the traps goes off (DCs would still be based on the Disable Device skill of the one setting it). It could easily cost a higher and higher amount of elemental trap parts to "infuse" a trap with a higher Spellpower Rating, and certainly should have minimum Disable Device skill ratings to even place such traps (so low-level characters could not purchase/craft very high level traps and use them in lowbie dungeons). I like this idea, because it addresses the usable DPS issue of Epic-level traps, while also creating a new economy within the game for interdependent Crafted Trap Parts Farmers, Trapmakers and the skilled Trappers who would actually use them as a reliable source of DPS. I know I'd get back into the Auction House Game of DDO again to both sell and buy these items, or the components used in making them. And it would give some new activity to the game, as people would have a reason to create skilled Trappers and Trapmakers, farm trapped dungeons for parts and spend some time in this Crafting Mini-game!

Just a few ideas on how this unique aspect of DDO can be improved. I hope the devs give it more attention, as I really enjoy this playstyle and hope it becomes viable for Epic play in the future. I play an Engineer in GW2 and have a lot of fun with it, as the class is designed to use Magical Technology for DPS and Crowd Control (and Healing in that game), making it a flexible and fun addition to the mix. The Eberron campaign setting that DDO is set in has a huge backstory of using magical tech and it would be great to have this reflected in the actual DDO game mechanics as well.

<See? Ghallanda Downtime had a positive impact today, time to post this....> =P

[flagged]

I hear you Arch, boy do I hear you.

I have been playing Mechanics since they were a option and in all that time I have been hoping the traps would become viable.

I am so disappointed by these "changes" that were put out, and I am very dispirited when Sev tell's us that Magic traps "may be working too well" I mean really? what the heck Sev?

Try playing them, it's just a Arch describes, between the range and the action most mobs just run right through them with no effect. The Web lands occasionally, but at any level past 22 there is so much fire effect being put out by teams that they are lucky to last longer then 3 seconds in combat.

Working too well? I mean seriously what kind of tests are the Devs running? I keep seeing "our tests" referred to again and again whenever a Dev want's to disagree with player sentiment, but if those are the same tests that tell Sev that Magic traps "may be working too well"? they are clearly only on paper, and not actually tested in full combat situations in game.

Come on Devs, pull it together.

[JonD]

We've finished our testing of Mechanic, comparing both repeating crossbows and non-repeating crossbows to a variety of builds. We have some changes coming soon.

Rogue
Sneak Attack damage now scales with 150% Melee Power or Ranged Power (whichever is higher). Previous: 100% Melee Power or Ranged Power.

Out of curiosity, why is it "(whichever is higher)" rather than "(whichever is applicable for the current weapon)"?

[ArkoHighStar]

I meant to say "Bows AREN'T mechanical enough"

I fixed my post.

seriously, bows can be very mechanical, composite bows by their very nature are mechanical in nature

[ToastyFred]

seriously, bows can be very mechanical, composite bows by their very nature are mechanical in nature

There isn't a SINGLE bow in DDO with pullies or cams.

Try again.

[ArkoHighStar]

There isn't a SINGLE bow in DDO with pullies or cams.

Try again.

but we have bows that look like this



and this



are you saying that a mechanic rogue couldn't modify his bow to do more damage but somehow do the same to a crossbow?


here is another example

[Qezuzu]

Are they talking about elemental damage traps, or spell traps?

Spell traps are really good with the Disable Device based DC - maybe too good. Elemental traps are a nice opener, especially if you lay multiple traps. I don't think we want rogues to be able to lay a small mine field that removes tons of hit points from epic elite level creatures, but we will keep an eye on it.

Sev~

Spell *trap. Singular. Web is the only spell trap I would say could be "over-performing." The other ones have significantly less potent effects, even with no-fail DC, it's very hard to compete with a persistent AoE effect that doesn't check Spell Resistance. It doesn't help that many of them seem to have issues with targeting.

Considering Rogues do not have an innate source of healing, it's hard to say that this is a balancing issue... bards similarly have Fascinate, a skill-based CC effect that affects an area, but they also have innate cure spells and better defenses.

At any rate, to say spell traps as a whole are "maybe too good" is not accurate. It's Web. It's the only spell trap anyone uses, that and maybe Glitterdust (another persistent AoE effect that doesn't check Spell Resistance) and VERY rarely Hypnotic Pattern (for some Web-immune.)

As for elemental traps: they are 100% useless in EE content. A ML27 trap hardly even dents an EE Lords of Dust cultist, it does like 15% on one of the weakest mobs. And an "opener" shouldn't take upwards of 20 seconds... laying down multiple traps is not going to happen in a party, and using just one is ineffective. So yes, please scale up the damage significantly. It should be worth the investment to lay down one trap, and walking in to a minefield set-up by an epic level Rogue should be deadly.

Oh, and if I wanted to cheese a dungeon I would use Web traps anyway, or just sneak past everything, or bluff-pull+Assassinate everything. If you're taking your time like that, as you would have to in order to severely chunk EE mobs with a full-blown minefield, there's very little challenge but it's not very compatible with most parties.

Or I could cheese dungeons by rolling a paladin

[ToastyFred]

but we have bows that look like this



and this



are you saying that a mechanic rogue couldn't modify his bow to do more damage but somehow do the same to a crossbow?


here is another example

Those are just fancy-looking, fantasy recurve bows, nothing more.

[ArkoHighStar]

Those are just fancy-looking, fantasy recurve bows, nothing more.

and yet this is infintely somehow way more mechanical and able to deliver 4d6 more sneak attack damage



and they gain this with no penalty to rate of fire which realistically a bow beats out even comparing a modern day crossbow to a classic recurve bow.

In fact for a crossbow to gain a huge advantage in draw force they would have to load like this


so tell you what you can keep the extra damage but drop rate of fire in half and we will call it even