Rogue - Mechanic (and Traps) Proposed Changes

[ArkoHighStar]

I am still having issues with crossbows somehow gaining all this damage over a bow with no penalty to rate of fire. Crossbows from the middle ages were not meant to be superior to bows, they were meant to provide long range combat abilities to soldiers who had no skill with a longbow. They were easy to use but had really low rates of fire especially if you were trying to match the draw weight. A hand drawn crossbow simply couldn't put out the same amount of power as a longbow, you would have to go to mechanically pulled bow strings either using a winch or a leverage device called a goats foot. Both these methods were extremely slow.
Even then crossbows were much less accurate. So it makes no sense to me that if you give these bonuses to crossbows you should give them to bows as well.

This video is a great demonstration of the difference

[flagged]

Those are just fancy-looking, fantasy recurve bows, nothing more.

But where is the bow of Sinew! it's so cool looking and cool in use as well, it's kinda Bio-mechanical right? right? aw come on! right?

[depositbox]

repeaters are way faster than both of those combined.

[Severlin]

Out of curiosity, why is it "(whichever is higher)" rather than "(whichever is applicable for the current weapon)"?

It is determined by the weapon you are wielding.

Sev~

[IronClan]

I find the person lobbying to give bows an uneeded buff based on a verisimilitude arguments to be disruptive and off topic and drowning out much needed mechanic feedback.

Bows have Many shot and 10kStars and do probably the highest burst damage possible in the game of all classes with Furyshot, which can drain a hundred thousand HP's off a raid boss in seconds. Furthermore a Long bow can reach the same or similar crit profile as a 18 rogue Mechanic can get with a Great Crossbow. Lobbying for a buff to bows as though they aren't still the A#1 ranged DPS is laughable, You might as well ask for a buff to Paladins because Assassins just got X2 multiplier. In any case this isn't the place to do it IMO.

[flagged]

I find the person lobbying to give bows an uneeded buff based on a verisimilitude arguments to be disruptive and off topic and drowning out much needed mechanic feedback.

Bows have Many shot and 10kStars and do probably the highest burst damage possible in the game of all classes with Furyshot, which can drain a hundred thousand HP's off a raid boss in seconds. Furthermore a Long bow can reach the same or similar crit profile as a 18 rogue Mechanic can get with a Great Crossbow. Lobbying for a buff to bows as though they aren't still the A#1 ranged DPS is laughable, You might as well ask for a buff to Paladins because Assassins just got X2 multiplier. In any case this isn't the place to do it IMO.

Uh clan?

~ A rogue archer and rogues skilled at throwing are staples in fantasy so we wanted a place for them, and this tree seemed the best of the three.

Sev~

And don't be so hard on the posters trying to get buffs for bows, they are no worse or any more self-serving than the people who asked that Expert builder be made a lev 12 core with a straight face.

[gwonbush]

I do think that 1 of critical multipliers for great crossbows should be moved to core 12. Gaining 2 critical multiplier at core 18 is kinda spiky.

[HastyPudding]

I do think that 1 of critical multipliers for great crossbows should be moved to core 12. Gaining 2 critical multiplier at core 18 is kinda spiky.

Too easy to be abused. The level 18-20 cores are supposed to be strong to make a pure or near-pure class viable.

[Deathdefy]

A few things.
1) Maybe increase the PBS/SA range for Great Crossbows. If the idea is to be super cool snipers (please tell me the idea is to be super cool snipers), give it another 10-20m somewhere in mech (or make it infinite like DWS 20 since I can't imagine it's popular enough that people will be bothered).

Don't give that bonus to repeaters. I might even go with great crossbow for the first shot then follow up with a repeater (assuming AI is fixed so that mobs care about mobs standing next to them being shot at some point).

2) Please fix timebomb in 2 ways.

2.1 - not hitting things in its AoE. To see it being dreadful and not hit anything I recommend Tempest's Spine (inside the building - almost literally anywhere - particularly obvious is the group of drow at the rare drow Ranger). Alternatively The Fallen Shrine walkup in Menechtaurum on the mephits.

2.2 - damage scaling into epics. I don't have first hand experience with this, but logically, 2k (max, more like 1k or nothing if mobs can evade and saves are high) means it's not super viable to use in EEs. I don't know the solution, but I don't think it's just "sometimes it crits". Having its DC scale off DD at least means it will probably be the full 2k, and knockdown is somewhat useful. There's already a huge trade-off in forcing rogues to get in close, and even more so in removing stealth on its use. On that, I'd be pro- letting the mechanic stay stealthed after planting the time bomb.

3) I agree with IronClan about the bow posts.

[Thar]

I find the person lobbying to give bows an uneeded buff based on a verisimilitude arguments to be disruptive and off topic and drowning out much needed mechanic feedback.

Bows have Many shot and 10kStars and do probably the highest burst damage possible in the game of all classes with Furyshot, which can drain a hundred thousand HP's off a raid boss in seconds. Furthermore a Long bow can reach the same or similar crit profile as a 18 rogue Mechanic can get with a Great Crossbow. Lobbying for a buff to bows as though they aren't still the A#1 ranged DPS is laughable, You might as well ask for a buff to Paladins because Assassins just got X2 multiplier. In any case this isn't the place to do it IMO.

fury can impact all weapons.

not ever archer has both many shot and 10k stars and non can do 100k in secs. full rangers can only do many shot, even 18 rangers can only do many shot. rogue archers get neither. one min max combo is not representive of all archers. not everyone can be stuck in that ED forever too. after 9 etr what do you do? go into any other ED and you stink with slow dps that maybe does 60-80 damage a shot.

longbow can only get to 18-20 max in one ED. great crossbow can get to 14-20.

bows are slow dps and only x3 multiplier.

[Thar]

I do think that 1 of critical multipliers for great crossbows should be moved to core 12. Gaining 2 critical multiplier at core 18 is kinda spiky.

too much risk of breaking another multi class combo at 12.

[flagged]

I do think that 1 of critical multipliers for great crossbows should be moved to core 12. Gaining 2 critical multiplier at core 18 is kinda spiky.

Oh no Gwon, it's much funnier than that, see the posters were asking for the original +1 threat range, +2 crit multiplier version to be made a lev 12 core! how they typed that without dying of the giggles we may never know!

Lev 12!

[ArkoHighStar]

I find the person lobbying to give bows an uneeded buff based on a verisimilitude arguments to be disruptive and off topic and drowning out much needed mechanic feedback.

Bows have Many shot and 10kStars and do probably the highest burst damage possible in the game of all classes with Furyshot, which can drain a hundred thousand HP's off a raid boss in seconds. Furthermore a Long bow can reach the same or similar crit profile as a 18 rogue Mechanic can get with a Great Crossbow. Lobbying for a buff to bows as though they aren't still the A#1 ranged DPS is laughable, You might as well ask for a buff to Paladins because Assassins just got X2 multiplier. In any case this isn't the place to do it IMO.

Many shot requires either heavy investment in another class or burning 2 feats to get it. 10k stars requires 6 levels of monk and a wisdom build and zen archery. Not exactly rogue friendly builds here. The repeating and non repeating crossbows are coming out ahead in a major way. A long bow requires either burning a feat, a limited race choice or going shiradi champion. Xbow builds get everything without having to multiclass or burn feats at all. At the very least the same should apply to shortbows and throwing daggers which are just as iconic as rogue weapon as a crossbow.Giving non repeating crossbows all this extra damage with no speed penalty just seems ridiculous.

With these changes a non repeating crossbow is doing 6d6 more sneak attack damage and and additional 11 point base damage over any bow or throwing wepaon, plus base damage gets 2W.

[Magil]

1) Maybe increase the PBS/SA range for Great Crossbows. If the idea is to be super cool snipers (please tell me the idea is to be super cool snipers), give it another 10-20m somewhere in mech (or make it infinite like DWS 20 since I can't imagine it's popular enough that people will be bothered).

That sounds like mad fun. I doubt it'll ever be implemented. I'm already enjoying the Mechanic enough as is (except the problem with Time Bomb not always hitting).

[JonD]

It is determined by the weapon you are wielding.

Sev~

Thanks, Sev. Glad it was just a typo.

[Unsmitten]

Oh no Gwon, it's much funnier than that, see the posters were asking for the original +1 threat range, +2 crit multiplier version to be made a lev 12 core! how they typed that without dying of the giggles we may never know!

Lev 12!

Wrong, we were asking for 1 range and multiplier at 12 and gxb getting another multiplier at 18. The devs did not do this, we got over it, but you keep bringing it up. You are the only one giggling and i find your demeanor on these forums repulsive.

[VinoeWhines]

I assume the dex builds you tested with took KTA for 8 AP as many dex assassins will do - since int is a strong secondary stat for rogues and the damage boost is worth it. I won't be changing my gear, the only thing in my build that will change is selecting dex instead of int where it is a choice. This means my int drops by

7 level ups
4 starting point
8 enchancements
4 ED
-----------------------
23 Total

Change in int modifier: 12

Change in KTA damage: 6

I lose 6 damage from KTA but gain no mercy, haste boost and other things from Acrobat tree.

I was previously taking

racial tree: 6 (2 int but with 2 wasted AP to get it)
assassin tree: 41 (4 int - same as a dex build)
acrobat tree: 8 (0 int)
Harper Tree: 25 (4 int + KTA + 6 MP + Agent of Good)

Now with shadowdodge I can save 2 AP and skip the racial tree and get my dex from harper tree

racial tree: 0
Assassin tree: 41 ( 4 dex and nothing else changes)
acrobat tree: 25 (5 dex + no mercy + haste boost)
Harper tree: 14 (2 dex + KTA + 5 MP + Agent of Good)

I get 11 dex instead of 10 int. I lose 6 damage from KTA and 1 MP, but I gain haste boost and no mercy. I am not sure how my dps is going down. This doesn't count doublestrike and the other benefits. I see only upside here. I also have the option to get 2 dex from tumbling and 4 dex from tenser's as a consumable. The downside to int yugo pots is fairly rough so I didn't use those. There is no downside to dex pots so I will get +2 from that all the time. I wouldn't use the tensers scroll option often, but in difficult content where it is needed I certainly would take the 1 second to do it before an assassinate. Same with tumbling. This means my dex will be 2-4 higher than I would with an int build depending on whether I use the +4 dex necklace from haunted halls (+1 from enh, + 1 from necklace vs. int optic int +3, +2 from yugo pots). My assassinate is 2 higher and with tumbling and tenser's it is 5 higher for difficult content situationally.

I will also say if you make double strike in acrobat apply only to staffs, you should change lethality to apply to only daggers and kukris to be consistent. I don't think changing either is needed.

Overall I was able to eliminated 6 wasted AP (4 from harper tree and 2 from racial tree) and I gained 1 feat which for me would translate to a level 27 epic feat.

How is this effecting the Mechanic?

[Jetrule]

That sounds like mad fun. I doubt it'll ever be implemented. I'm already enjoying the Mechanic enough as is (except the problem with Time Bomb not always hitting).

Aren't you getting pb and sneak attack from max range? I am. I don't have object draw set to max but one less so as not to strain my ancient graphic card.

[VinoeWhines]

Greetings, Sev.

This is an interesting point on traps.

TRAPMAKING:

It's a great idea, but suffers too many technical and resource problems to be a viable addition to any playstyle right now. I've been testing them on my Rogue2/Wizzy18 Drow PaleTrapper, and I have found the following:

*My Crafted Trap DCs are very high, but this is meaningless if the traps never trigger or land properly. Mobs have a habit of slightly skirting the trap, even if they are chasing you with full aggro multiple times across the trapped area. And I don't mean 5-10 feet away, they go right up to the trap, do a little sidestep jig and run by, not triggering them at all. Very frustrating. I am an excellent kiter, but it is ridiculous how close I have to drag a group to a trap before it will do anything. I would suggest increasing the trap activation radius by quite a bit, unless mob AIs can be adjusted to not basically make a "running evasion maneuver" that they should really NOT be able to do while chasing a jumping, hasted, tumbling target at top speeds. They also have a tendency to run *around* a freshly-burst Web or Grease Crafted Trap area, more than their AI should allow.

*Another idea to help make Crafted Traps viable would be to add the ability to *remotely detonate* a placed trap, so that the user could time the explosion or spell burst effect. (And the tech is already in the game from the Blockade Buster quest in Lordsmarch plaza.) This would allow a skilled user to get the most out of emplaced Crafted Traps, and fit better with the theme of a Mechanic who uses Magical Tech to DPS and/or CC. Without this ability, there is a ridiculous amount of kiting needed to get mobs near a Trap Killzone. It would add a layer of tactical gameplay that would appeal to many players who don't want to just do "max DPS" as their only playstyle. And it would make DDO more fun! Traps are a unique feature of DDO, and the devs could really emphasize this with some changes to Crafted Traps to make them more viable.

*MAGICAL trap parts are currently too rare to cost as much as the other trapbuilding recipes. They don't drop often enough from a reliable source of Spellwards to be farmable. So a user's supply of Web, Grease, Ottos and other traps becomes an always-shrinking stockpile taking much scrounging to keep up on. In fact, the elemental trapmaking costs are also a bit high, especially if you are going to make Crafted Traps a part of your routine. Melle do not need to make and consume any doohickeys to do Sword DPS, and the Ranged and Spell Attack components (arrows and spell components) are obtained inexpensively from a variety of sources. I would suggest cutting the costs of the first component in each trap recipe (Magical or Elemental trap parts) at least in half. Mechanical trap parts and the Elemental Essences are readily available and are fine for costs.

*I agree with many previous posters that the AoE of a triggered Magical Trap is too small right now. Making stuff like Deep Slumber or Slow traps is pointless, as they never land. Often the mob triggers it in a run-across and the effect hits right after it leaves the area. They don't even get a save, it just doesn't hit. Currently this is a dead-end area of Crafted Trapmaking and needs to be addressed to be playable.

*The damage of the Elemental Traps is also too low. One idea would be to make Crafted Elemental Traps whose DPS output is based on the SPELLPOWER of the one that crafted them. So each trap would have a quality rating, adding that spellpower to the elemental damage when the traps goes off (DCs would still be based on the Disable Device skill of the one setting it). It could easily cost a higher and higher amount of elemental trap parts to "infuse" a trap with a higher Spellpower Rating, and certainly should have minimum Disable Device skill ratings to even place such traps (so low-level characters could not purchase/craft very high level traps and use them in lowbie dungeons). I like this idea, because it addresses the usable DPS issue of Epic-level traps, while also creating a new economy within the game for interdependent Crafted Trap Parts Farmers, Trapmakers and the skilled Trappers who would actually use them as a reliable source of DPS. I know I'd get back into the Auction House Game of DDO again to both sell and buy these items, or the components used in making them. And it would give some new activity to the game, as people would have a reason to create skilled Trappers and Trapmakers, farm trapped dungeons for parts and spend some time in this Crafting Mini-game!

Just a few ideas on how this unique aspect of DDO can be improved. I hope the devs give it more attention, as I really enjoy this playstyle and hope it becomes viable for Epic play in the future. I play an Engineer in GW2 and have a lot of fun with it, as the class is designed to use Magical Technology for DPS and Crowd Control (and Healing in that game), making it a flexible and fun addition to the mix. The Eberron campaign setting that DDO is set in has a huge backstory of using magical tech and it would be great to have this reflected in the actual DDO game mechanics as well.

<See? Ghallanda Downtime had a positive impact today, time to post this....> =P

If traps where to be laid out in multiples of five, with the eight second timer, than the damage would be a little underpowered but putting out 5 at the same time would help. But as it is, even though the timers have been improved, the time it takes to lay them down one by one, is a nuisance for party members not wanting to wait for you to do your little hobo stove setup, when there are thoroughbreds waiting to be off to the races in melee damage.
If you go "rogue" and leave the group behind, so you can get a head start to place the traps then you might have a chance.

I would like for there to be a mechanic tree option to lay multiple traps of five, something that at the entrance of a dungeon you could self buff yourself, with an extended animation, that is showing as you prepare your equipment and tools for questing organizing your traps so they can be laid out in multiples, and the buff can leave on resting at a shrine or on leaving a dungeon. Just like fast detect traps, this should be an option for mechanic. Another option as well is a remote detonation boulder toss type trap, that causes the walls/ceiling to virtually collapse and do bludgeoning damage along with pierce/shrapnel damage also causing a daze/hamstring effect on even a save, that could add to Rogue CC affects.

[VinoeWhines]

I don't see how repeaters are overpowered at all. They're looking to be underpowered.
All the youtube videos showing two handed weapons hitting for high numbers and glancing blows, while soloing Epic Elites. I haven't seen any videos where repeaters are even coming close to half the damage output of these melee types.

What gear and rogue build choices are there to say that these are overpowered. I don't see any level 20/28 rogues doing any such thing.